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Re: Help with Hoof Evaluation

Rachel Fazio
 

Hi Lavinia - thanks so much for your reply, sorry I am still trying to navigate posting messages.  Now that I think I have figured out how to post via the web, I think I will do so.  Yes, Ty has been IR probably for a long while, but we first figured it out in 2016 shortly before I found this site and started taking Dr. Kellon's classes.  We manage him mostly on symptoms - fat deposits over eyes, at tail head and sheath.  During ACTH rise he can get footsore, he also gets lethargic and rubs his head a lot (not sure if that is a PPID symptom) but so far overt laminitis has not been our experience (thank goodness) and hopefully, that trend will hold.  We are very strict with his diet, but during fall the last couple of years we are soaking even low sugar hay (6% ESC less than 1% starch) just to try to keep him as close to normal as possible. - so seems like something more is going on.  I know that cortisol rhythm testing is not a valid PPID test - unfortunately, we have very limited access to veterinary care up here - and our vet is reluctant to do the Cornell test - but I will keep working on him.  Otherwise, we would have to drive at least an hour, which I think would throw off the results anyway.

Ty just turned 26 in May.

If you can do some markups I would appreciate it - his hooves are hard as granite and I think the new trimmer is having a difficult time, but I would appreciate any guidance so I can at least start to have a conversation with her.  She hasn't done anything to the soles on previous trims - but she did trim back the frogs the first trim, this is what has grown back since then and I have asked her not to trim them anymore.

Hopefully, you will receive this reply - but I will also cut and paste and send it out via ECIR main - with Re: Help with Hoof Evaluation Response to Lavinia.

Thanks again,

Rachel


Re: Help with Hoof Evaluation

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Rachel,

Ty is  one handsome boy.

I don't see that you have posted at all to the main ECIR group. Until you post, you won't be able to get any input regarding Ty's management or issues. As he is at least IR, all questions (including hoof/trim ones) should be asked on the main group. All future discussion regarding him should be moved there.

How old is he? Based on the insulin results in his album, he is definitely IR but the insulin result isn't in the range where overt laminitis usually occurs. Unfortunately, cortisol rhythm testing is NOT a valid test for PPID. You really need to get an ACTH test done, along with the insulin and glucose. Sending the samples to Cornell is advised.

Thanks for adding the photos and rads. When were the rads actually done? Are these of his front feet?

The rads show significant side bone; ground parallel coffin bones, with broken back HPAs on both; underrun heels; lots of arthritic changes visible along the pastern bones; medial wall flaring on both feet; long toes; sole depth is just adequate.

Photos show underrun heels, with the central sulcus splitting up into the soft tissues. Hinds have bull-nosed dorsal walls, indicating that the coffin bones are likely ground parallel or even negative plane. Frogs appear to be stretched forward all around.

The trim should focus on shortening the toes horizontally so the breakover moves further back. Preserve all vertical height in the heels (don't try to move them back right now). Leave the soles and frogs alone except to remove any loose tags.
I can try to get you some mark-ups in time for Sat if you'd like.

Let me know with a post on the Main ECIR group.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


Help with Hoof Evaluation

Rachel Fazio
 

Hi - I have been a passive member since 2106, and just recently uploaded my case history and photo album with the hopes of getting some guidance on my horses hooves and how to communicate with my new trimmer as we recently had to make a change.   

I feel like something is not being done quite right with his trim, but am not sure if I am imagining things - his feet were right where we wanted them and we had to make the switch, and I want to avoid heading in the wrong direction.  He isn't lame, but they just look different - so figure maybe Lavina could take a look if she has a moment and tell me I have nothing to worry about or give me some advice.  Anyway the trimmer is coming on Saturday the 31st - so if it isn't possible I understand, I did try to send it in with more time, but I don't know what happened there.

My horse is Ty, I am Rachel.


Many thanks, for this and for all that the amazing ECIR volunteers do!

Rachel





Re: Remove false sole or no?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Susan,

I wouldn't call that false sole - it's exfoliating sole that was wearing off. This can also happen if there was a sub-solar abscess that separated the layers of sole. Sometimes it comes off in bigger pieces, sometimes it continually wears away. The amount of sole a barefoot horse builds depends on the terrain, the climate and the horse itself and changes all the time. When there is a rapid change from conditions that required more sole (or less concavity) to ones the need less (more concavity), the shedding can become quite obvious.

I tend toward the "leave it in place" school, as it is still protecting sole underneath that may not be quite ready to be exposed. It will usually peel off on its own fairly quickly. If the horse seems to uncomfortable, I'll take it off. If you remove too soon and the horse seems uncomfortable, boot/pad or apply Hoof Armor for a short time until the new sole has had enough time to harden up.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


Remove false sole or no?

Susan
 

Both of my riding horses (they both get about 30 minutes of dressage training a day) have developed false soles this summer for the first time. It's been hot and dry for the last 2 months.  They  both have  been on jiaogulan for about a year now. One is PPID, the other was diagnosed with navicular last year. They are both sound now. They live on a track so they are moving all the time and they get about 1-2 hours of grass a day.

At first I thought I was seeing some separation of the white line and a very flat sole. But today the hoof pick went under the sole at the point of the frog and I was able to peel the sole off of the PPID horse in one piece. The other horse has had some smaller pieces break off, but not all of it. In general, should a false sole be removed and what is the theory behind the decision? On the "leave it alone" side it seems like it would provide a bit of extra cushion. But in favor of removing it, it seems like thrush could get started under it and removing it has given the hoof  more concavity.

I saw him standing stretch out of times in the last week, so I cut back his grass. Is it possible that he was looking for relief from the bulge caused by the false sole. He showed no signs of lameness while being ridden or moving around the track. After I removed the false sole from the PPID horse he walked away  sound, but it's only been a few hours. I'll know better tomorrow when I ride him if he shows any signs of sensitivity. Should I remove the remaining false sole on the other horse?
--
Susan in BC 2020
Copper and Ella's Case Histories
Ella's Photos


Re: Negative side effects of Jiaogulan based on pathology?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Honestly, I don't know how/if the Hoof Armor would affect drainage. I'd go with trying to get anything that might be trapped out. Definitely wouldn't back off the j-herb as if something is there, it needs to move out. Circulation is going to increase to the feet whether there is ski tipping or not.

Do you have current photos of her feet? If not, add some to her album and let us know when they are up.

Effectiveness of j-herb is reduced when given with a meal but a small amount of food just to mix it in is OK. If fed with meals, increase the amount by 50% - or until you see Jazzy's gum/tongue color get deeper pink/red.

To update your signature, click on the Subscription tab in the upper LH corner of the EC Hoof web page. Scroll down to the signature box, add your general location and year of joining, then scroll to the bottom of the page and hit Save.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Negative side effects of Jiaogulan based on pathology?

Michelle Coburn
 

Thanks Lavinia, I have been using Hoof Armor for awhile now on the front half of the sole. Won't this effect getting drainage out? I just applied a new layer not too long before this issue surfaced, of course!  She's ALWAYS in boots/pads when out of her paddock, with is a mix of dirt, pea gravel and stall pads/mats.

I almost feel like I should back off the Jherb, but maybe since I've started this process it's better to see it through? With the ski tipping of the coffin bone, is there going to be increase in circulation with all the bony changes? So hard to know how to move forward! I also have been giving it mixed with a little water in a syringe, but she's not having that any more. What changes in effectiveness or dosage if given with food? Sorry for all the questions, but these are this is keeping me up at night.  :(
__
Michelle and Jazzy
PS-How do I figure out how to do my signature?


Re: Negative side effects of Jiaogulan based on pathology?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Michelle,

Sounds like the J-herb may be mobilizing abscesses - which is not uncommon. Thin soles are prone to bruising so abscessing can be the next step. That material needs to move out, tho the process isn't fun for owner or horse. I'd be careful with soaking when you have thin soles as making them soft on top of thin can be dicey. Better to use a Numotizine poultice, which can be effective in initiating drainage and is very useful because it will change color in areas that had drainage. Scrub the foot well then apply a layer of Numotize and cover with cotton gauze or a diape.  Secure the cotton or diaper well then put inside a boot or wrap with duct tape or Gorilla tape. Leave on 1 to 2  days. https://www.bigdweb.com/product/code/294.do?gclid=Cj0KCQiA5vb-BRCRARIsAJBKc6KHNvrUDEU0PkpYDdE7N8moWo5i2eawvlG6XpSfhsMBWOuxClRsn9MaAmeyEALw_wcB

Ski-tipping isn't affected by J-herb but getting the trim tight will help to ensure that it doesn't become worse. It will also help to increase the sole depth. Padded boots in the meanwhile, to protect and help increase circulation, are also a must on anything but the softest, most forgiving surfaces.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


Negative side effects of Jiaogulan based on pathology?

Michelle Coburn
 

I've (re)started my thin soled mare (I do use Hoof Armor) on J-herb to try and increase circulation and get better blood flow to build sole depth. After 4 days she's coming up lame, limping on front right, which is her weakest thinnest hoof sole. Boots and pads, and photobiomodulation are being used. My first question is, is there a certain set of circumstances like hers (ski tipping of coffin bone) which ISN'T helped by Jherb, and will only cause discomfort, or is it worth continuing to use it, even though it's probably moving some ugly internal hoof pathology to rear it's ugly head that may be beyond help? Second question is: I know Dr Kellon recommends soaking with Epsom salt baths, but with a thin soled horse (<10 mm) what should I do? It's always such a balancing act, and this is only the second time since I've owned her she's had this, we've been maintaining very well, with Pete Ramey helping me. He's kind of out of circulation now, but we do have David Landreville coming this weekend, and he's going to look at her. Thanks for the information, I appreciate this group so much, and even though I don't post often I read the daily messages. I have uploaded hoof rads somewhere in here!

Michelle Coburn and Jazzy (sorry if this isn't the right signature!


Re: thin soles

Daisy Shepherd
 

thanks to all who replied; all good recommendations.   daisy and tiko


Re: thin soles

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Daisy, 

Hoof Armour comes to mind when you ask about what to "paint" on thin soles.  It's a bit more complicated than painting, but easy to do and it is supposed to last a few weeks.  Boots with pads are probably the best option for comfort though.

--
Kirsten Rasmussen
Kitimat, BC, Canada


Re: thin soles

Barbara Rosensteel
 

I have a thoroughbred with thin soles.  I have had him only since February.  The first thing I did was add copper, zinc, methionine, biotin, and lysine to his supplements, as all are important to building healthy hooves.   Then I searched for the right hoof trimmer, which in my case meant finding a barefoot trimmer.  After trying a local barefoot trimmer and a farrier I have finally settled on a barefoot trimmer who, IMO, knows what she is doing.  I have to pay an extra trip charge for her on top of the trim charge because of the distance, but I just do what I have to do.    You might have to search for an experienced barefoot trimmer who knows what they are doing.  Ask for their training and education credentials, and for references.

I have also put a hoof dressing on to try to keep moisture in, but haven't used it consistently.  There are different thoughts on the usefulness of hoof dressings but I thought it couldn't hurt - might help.  Hoof dressings by themselves will do nothing if you do not have the diet, supplements, and trim in place.

After the trim, I would recommend putting hoof boots on your horse for turnout.  I did not do that and my horse ended up with an abscess. 

If you are riding him/her now, use hoof boots.

Barbara Rosensteel (and Ranger)
Tennessee


Re: thin soles

Daisy Shepherd
 

thank you sherry; was looking more  for something to paint soles for protection.  in our extreme drought our soil is harder than usual, very rocky also; that said tikos turn out is an area where the owners do flood irrigation so he stands in wet every day. yes i am working with lavinia; now little support from vet or farrier to do much more with tighter trim, continues with shoes x4. will get recent xrays and hoof photos posted as soon as i get xrays. thanks, daisy and tiko


Re: thin soles

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Daisy,

Not sure what you're asking - if you need additional sole protection we recommend pads in boots. If you're looking to increase sole depth getting the trim in order and not touching the soles when a trim is done will help increase sole depth; but it will take a while to see a difference.  Did you see Lavinia's message concerning the last set of markups on the main group: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/266268 which addressed the loss of sole depth?
--
Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge)
EC Primary Response 
PA 2014
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891


thin soles

Daisy Shepherd
 

what to use for thin soles? thanks, daisy and tiko


Re: Abscesses, antibiotics, and bute

Karen Hocking
 

Thank you Lavinia for that information - it was my horse that had the possible osteomyelitis but treated as a hoof abscess. Thirteen months on and I still struggle with what happened so having something that could potentially explain why it went so horribly wrong helps me process it. I've become totally paranoid about hooves since and our current wet, muddy conditions aren't helping. The information you have  provided is very helpful.

Good luck Barbara with your horse and I hope it all resolves quickly.

Kind regards
Karen (Dubbo NSW Australia)


Re: Abscesses, antibiotics, and bute

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Barbara,

What makes you believe he has abscesses in both fronts if he doesn't appear to be in any distress? Is he looking lame in some way? If the vet feels this may be more than a garden variety abscess, taking radiographs is in order. Prophylactic antibiotics in this type of situation is not a good idea as (A) it won't do any good and (B) these are the types of situations that contribute to the proliferation of antibiotic resistant bacteria.

An abscess is generally a self-contained, walled-off pocket around some trapped material that has no path to getting removed. Antibiotics can't penetrate that wall, or if they do, without enough concentration to actually have much effect. An abscess doesn't cause an infection in the bone - rather, it could be the result of one. The only way to get concentrated antibiotics into the hoof is to do Regional Limb perfusion, which is going way overboard for a possible hoof abscess. In the case you mention, the horse likely had osteomyelitis which was causing the never-ending drainage. It wasn't diagnosed as such but rather treated as hoof abscessing so the infection spread.

Using bute for an abscess will generally tamp down the inflammation, and therefore the pain. However, all that does is prolong the abscess because the material that is trapped and looking for a way out is still there. Once the bute is stopped, the inflammation will ramp up again until a path to the outside is achieved so everything can drain out. Although it can be unpleasant to watch, if the horse is eating/drinking/peeing/pooping, the best thing you can do is allow the abscess to mature and drain. Soaking can help soften a path to the outside and draw the material out. In a thin-soled horse, I'd be careful as you don't want to soften those already thin soles. Using an epsom salt poultice and wrapping the feet with that inside of boots would be safer. Numotizine poultice can be effective in initiating drainage and it very useful because it will change color in areas that had drainage. Scrub the foot well then apply a layer of Numotizine and cover with cotton gauze or a diaper. Secure the cotton or diaper well then put inside a boot or wrap with duct tape or Gorilla tape.  Leave on 1 to 2  days. https://www.bigdweb.com/product/code/294.do?gclid=Cj0KCQiA5vb-BRCRARIsAJBKc6KHNvrUDEU0PkpYDdE7N8moWo5i2eawvlG6XpSfhsMBWOuxClRsn9MaAmeyEALw_wcB

Moving around at will is also good for helping to get the trapped collections to move out.

The thin soles are likely the underlying cause of the abscesses (if that is what's going on). He definitely should be in boots at all times unless he's on an extremely soft surface until more sole depth develops. The thin soles are likely related to trim issues and will be a recurrent issue until the trim gets corrected and the feet become healthier.

Smile sweetly, thank the other horse owner for their concern then tell them firmly the discussion is over. This is your horse and after consulting with the vet and farrier, you have this under control.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Abscesses, antibiotics, and bute

Barbara Rosensteel
 

Sorry, one more question.   Is it a good idea to put his hoof boots on all the time due to his thin soles?  (Riding type Cavallo's)

Barbara


Abscesses, antibiotics, and bute

Barbara Rosensteel
 

My horse has, I strongly suspect, abscesses in both front hooves.    I am getting conflicting information on what to do.  Ranging from antibiotics and bute to curcumin and leave it alone to come out on its own.

The veterinarian advised putting him on antibiotics prophylactically.   I resisted this at first because all I had read said antibiotics were not used for abscesses because it they couldn't penetrate into the abscess.   However, in a search on this forum for "abscesses" I found a case where the horse was being treated externally for abscesses and eventually the horse had to be put down because the infection  went to the navicular bone, the coffin bone, and the tendon sheath.  So, I am now thinking that the antibiotics are a good thing that could prevent a catastrophic spread of the infection.   Opinions?

The veterinarian advised bute paste.  I know the philosophy on this forum is that bute does more harm than good.  But, if it relieves pain, and is used for only a short period (i.e. max dose for two days, then taper to half dose on next two days, 1/4 dose, etc.  is it really as much a problem as is suggested?    I know that when I couldn't get my broken-in-two collarbone (horse bucked me off) surgically repaired for ten days I took a LOT of ibuprofen as an antiinflammatory/pain relief.   How can I deny my horse that relief for a few days until the abscess comes out?     Opinions?

I am asking for opinions because the other person who lives here and has horses is fighting against my assertions that he probably should not have bute, and the conversation is getting heated.

I am also soaking his hooves once a day in epsom salts for about 20 minutes.   I haven't wrapped his hooves immersed in epsom salts because he has very thin soles and I'm terrified of the coffin bone (which is only about 10 mm from the sole) penetrating if the sole gets too soft.  Will soaking once a day do any good?    He has a large box stall with bedding and access to a small paddock.   He is a thoroughbred, is not IR, and I do not believe his soreness is laminitis for several reasons - no feet-out-in-front stance, pedal pulses are not bounding or even very strong, and his hooves are not hot.  He is moving around the pasture and does not appear to be in any distress.

Thanks,
Barbara


Re: Horizontal Cracks

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Shirley,

Have you seen the replies you've gotten to your questions here and on the main ECIR group? If not, here are links to them:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/Hoof/topic/76794174#11328

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/255921

I can help you with the specifics of what needs to happen for Olaf's trim but in order to do that, I need a full set of photos of all four feet so I can do a set of mark-ups for you. Here is the link to what is needed:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1472

The photos can be uploaded to Olaf's Photo album here:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=254671
 
Please let us know if you are having trouble navigating or are getting stuck somewhere in the process.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support

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