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Re: Attn: Lavinia Re: Vertical split in hoof wall

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Thanks for the update, Barbara.

When feet have squashed down and run forward, all growth is going to push forward as well, so it takes the trim even further out of wack much more quickly than would happen if it was starting in an optimal place.
Send the photos to me and I'll get them uploaded for you.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


Attn: Lavinia Re: Vertical split in hoof wall

Barbara Rosensteel
 

Hello Lavinia,

My hoof trimmer came out on November 9th.   We looked at and discussed the markups, and then she trimmed per the markups.  She said that she was being too conservative before and she agreed with the markups.   Mist's hooves grow fast so I'm going to have her come out every 4 weeks.

I have photos of the damaged left front hoof taken right after the trim on Nov. 9, and, as recommended, photos of the three other hooves which for various reasons were not taken until Nov 18.    

I would appreciate it very much if you could post these photos in Mist's album (especially the damaged left front) and let me know if my hoof trimmer is on the right track.  

Thank you,
Barbara


Re: Navicular comfort

Josephine Trott
 

Hi Shera
No they don’t. They’ve suffered thin soles and laminitis between them but the only potential navicular issue turned out to be just clutching at straws because it was actually an abscess.
How is the frog health in your navicular horse?
I have a friend whose horse was diagnosed navicular and she used cavallo boots with him for quite a while but he’s sound barefoot now.
Have you tried hoof armor? That helped my formerly shod horse with thin soles transition out of needing boots for riding
Josie
Davis CA 12/09


Re: Navicular comfort

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Shera,

Getting the trim correct is going to be crucial in helping the Navicular issues and in getting her soles to increase in depth. The only thing the shoes are doing is preventing hoof expansion, which is why they help make her more comfortable. That comes at the cost of suspending her from her lamina, as they take the soles and frog completely out of their roles in supporting the bony column.That decreases circulation, as well as leads to atrophy of many of those structures.

Boots and pads are the best option while working on getting the trim corrected. If you would like some input on the trim, get a full set of hof photos posted so we can assess where things may need improvement.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Navicular comfort

Shera Felde
 

Thank you,  Josie. Do either of your horses have navicular?  I will check them out.
--
Shera Felde
Sisters, Oregon
2020


Re: Navicular comfort

Josephine Trott
 

Hi Shera
I've used hoofwings for over a decade and both my horses move better in them than they do barefoot. 
Equine Jogging Shoes say they are good for navicular - have you tried them?

Cheers
Josie
Davis CA 12/09


Navicular comfort

Shera Felde
 

Does anyone have great transition (boots?) ideas for a horse with navicular? It has been 1 year since diagnosis and I tried many boot/pad/barefoot combinations before giving up and having shoes put back on. I trim often but I couldn't get her comfortable with boots. She has a history of thin soles too.  I would really like to get rid of the shoes but I can't stand to see her so uncomfortable. Anyone had luck with a certain combination?  Our terrain is varied- wood, some rock, slope, deep dirt and pine cones. She is not being ridden for now.

Thanks for any suggestions.
--
Shera Felde
Sisters, Oregon
2020


Re: Fusion Boots for asymmetry

Jennifer Murphy
 

I've been using Equine Fusion boots for a few years, and with a mini mule narrow hoof, the boots definitely twist, even the narrow sizes.  What helped my guy was purchasing some thick felt and cutting it into strips, then tucking them into the sides of the boot.  It filled up the empty spaces and made the boot fit a little better, and twisting was reduced significantly.  It took a few tries to figure out where to put the strips and how many to use.  One on each side of the hoof plus the EF dampening pads to lift his hoof up a little worked best for us.


Re: Fusion Boots for asymmetry

Chris Hanson
 

Thanks Kirsten!
The spinning boot seems to be related to size with the boots I’m trying too. I’ll check link that out.


Re: Fusion Boots for asymmetry

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

When my horse spins on his hinds, boots twist, including Equine Fusions.  I understand there's a new Equine Fusion boot that is advertised as less likely to spin though.  http://equine-jogging-shoes.com/trekking-jogging-shoe/
Contact Jenny at "all natural horse care . com" if you want to ask her about that.

In my experience though, twisting during normal movement (ie not spinning) is a sign the boot is too big.

--
Kirsten Rasmussen
Kitimat, BC, Canada


Fusion Boots for asymmetry

Chris Hanson
 

Hi,
I found this thread on the ECIRhorse hoof groups and it was very validating to see I’m not the only one dealing with “spinning” hoof boots.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/Hoof/topic/31754772#10552

In this thread someone suggested equine fusion boots. Has anyone had experience with these for helping with boots that twist?
The person at Easycare suggested Easyboot Back country and I’ve not tried them yet. But the description of the Fusion boots sounded like they have less chance of rubbing and you can take into account asymmetrical heels.

Woody is currently a little more comfortable because he got a pretty decent cut from the Scoot boots last night so in order to keep wet gunk out I wrapped this foot like an abcess.





Re: Vertical split in hoof wall

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Getting the mechanics corrected (and maintained correct) is going to play a major role in minimizing ongoing damage. Making sure the diet is tight, so that all the building blocks for creating new hoof are available in the right quantities, is the other major player. After that, time to allow new hoof growth to replace the severely damaged material.

Only then will you know how this will play out long-term. I suspect there will always be the tendency to split anytime the trim deviates even slightly form being optimal, so something to keep in mind.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Vertical split in hoof wall

Barbara Rosensteel
 

Dr. Kellon,

Lavinia has uploaded photos in which I tried to show a closer view of the coronary band (marked LF_Coronary Band).   There is most definitely a defect or damage there because the hoof has not grown out connected front-to-back in the 9 months I've had her.   Since it appears unlikely that the crack will ever grow out, the question becomes what do I do to keep the back part from becoming more damaged and growing incorrectly or splitting off.  It does not seem to have any effect on her movement and she does not appear to be in any pain from it.  Even when I poke around under the hoof with a dental pick to clean it out.

Thanks,

Barbara Rosensteel
https://ecir.groups.io/g/Hoof/album?id=278973


Re: shoeing?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi (Sandra)?

Welcome. Sorry that your boy is going thru this.

Briefly, the group recommends keeping a laminitic horse barefoot as they generally require frequent trimming to maintain an optimal hoof for healing. Any attached appliances make that type of schedule extremely difficult to achieve. Many vets (and farriers) are only trained to work with shoes as a solution for everything, so that is what they recommend. Here is some info on why we make this recommendation:

https://www.ecirhorse.org/DDT+E-trim.php

Also see Dr. Robert Bowker's presentations from the 2015 NO Laminitis Conference:

Nerves, Nerves, Nerves: Why are they so important to the horse
The Vascular Cushion of the Frog: What does it do?

https://www.ecirhorse.org/proceedings-2015.php

These are free to download

Because your horse is both IR and PPID, all questions regarding him should remain on the main ECIR group - including ones regarding his feet. Happy to continue this in more detail back on the main group.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


shoeing?

sandra.whisler@...
 

I am new to this group.  I am now dealing with a 14 year old TB/WB cross that has laminitis.  He tested high insulin and slightly high ACTH.  I now suspect that he has had flare ups in previous years that I did not recognize.  Both vets who have seen him recommended front shoes.  One said to put the shoes on backwards to reduce pressure on the toe.  

I notice so far in my explorations of the web pages for the group, that only trimming is discussed (I may have missed something).  Could someone refer me to either why shoeing is not recommended, or where shoeing is discussed.  Thanks.


Re: Lavinia - Markups and Advice

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

No problem, Valletta.

Either way is fine regarding this post.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Lavinia - Markups and Advice

Valletta Lochridge
 

Thank you so much, Lavinia.  I will get to work on this in the morning.  Apologies that I didn’t post to the correct group.  Should I copy the entire post to the main group or just refer to this one?

valletta


Re: Lavinia - Markups and Advice

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Valletta,

Poor boy, he's been having a bit of a rough time lately.

Based on the rads, the trim can take a lot of that toe away. There is also a  lot of flaring all the way around, which is part of the the white line issues you are seeing. Because he is an IR horse, all discussions - including hoof ones - should remain on the main ECIR group.

I can get you mark-ups for his next trim but it would be helpful if you could provide a full set of photos for all four feet, as trim issues are rarely confined to only one foot. Here's what's needed:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1472

The lateral and dorsal shots should include the cannon bones and Rego should be standing as squarely as possible on the foot being photographed. Only need the dorsal, lateral, sole and sole plane for each one. Just post to the main group once the pix are up.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Lavinia - Markups and Advice

Valletta Lochridge
 

And I just realized that my hoof photos are dated wrong....sheesh!  I took all of those today.  I will work on renaming tomorrow - my apologies.

Valletta


Lavinia - Markups and Advice

Valletta Lochridge
 

I'm looking for help with Rego, my 19y/o Percheron cross who has severe white line separation, rotation and descent on his RF.  (He has compensated IR and is on tested hay, custom mineral blend by HorseTech as balanced by Dr Kathleen, and other supps as listed in his Case History).  My trimmer is new and has minimal experience with barefoot laminitis rehab.  He is a farrier who is open to learning and I've discussed that I'd be posting here for help.  I've asked that he visit the website to see what we're all about.  He will be coming for our next trim on Thursday, 9/20 (last trim 9/6).  Rego has been on a 4 week trim cycle since he came to me in 2014.  He has a history of white line disease, rotation and descent (2013) and he abscessed in 2016 and 2019 (see Case History).

On 8/1, Rego developed severe swelling in his sheath and was diagnosed with pigeon fever.  He became lame in the RF approximately 8/5 and abscessed in RF on 8/10.  He became severely lame on the LF around 8/10 and that abscessed around 8/15.  The sheath abscessed on 8/12.  He became less and less lame on both fronts but a huge crevasse in the white line was revealed at a trim.  I was hesitant to soak in Clean Trax and treat with No Thrush (my usual) because I just didn't want to add any moisture in there, so I chose to clean it well, use a bit of No Thrush and pack it with Artimud.  I wasn't sure that the trim was optimal for this condition and I wasn't confident that the coffin bone was ok.  I asked the vet for xrays which revealed the depth of the hole in the white line, rotation and descent.  The vet advised a resection of dorsal hoof wall up to the point of healthy tissue.  I discussed this with my trimmer who was concerned about Rego's thin sole and a raised area on the sole near the toe where possibly the tip of the coffin bone resided.  He feared that removing all of that dorsal wall would put too much pressure on the rotated bone and it would puncture the thin sole.  It made sense to me.....  but I also knew that we were fostering a nice little home for bacteria to flourish so it wasn't ideal.  (I guess that I can insert here that Rego and I have battled WLD since I met him.  Winters are a struggle to keep him clean and dry.  In the 4 weeks prior to this founder, the previous trimmer requested hoof soaks in softening products 3 times in that 4 week time frame in preparation for trimming and he was a no-show all 3 times which, I believe, contributed to the underlying and unnoticed WLD.  Perfect storm for disaster).

The vet continues to want the resection and I'm becoming more concerned about packing and creating the bacteria condo.  (I love this Artimud and I have to say that when I take it out to change it, there's no funky smell in the hole and no black stuff on the pick - so I'm hoping that it's working).  I measured the hole today and at its deepest, it is approximately 1 5/8" deep from the sole.  There's probably another 1/2" of hoof wall beyond the sole.  I talked with the trimmer on the 9/6 visit and he agreed to take about 1/2-3/4 inch off at an area of about 10:00-2:30 (with the toe being 12:00).  Rego has maintained soundness with that trim which now makes me feel like maybe he could handle losing more toe and dorsal wall if that is what is recommended here.  

I would be so grateful if you could please provide markups and advice for us.  

Valletta and Rego in CA
2012
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Valletta%20and%20Rego/Rego%20Case%20History.pdf
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=279335

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