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Re: White Line and Trim Discussion with New Trimmer

Helen Temps
 

Is it possible she is viewing the water line as the "white line"??  I was very confused as the water line is colored white, whereas the 'white line' is more fleshy colored.


Re: White Line and Trim Discussion with New Trimmer

Helen Temps
 

I would buy her a copy of "The Essential Hoof Book" available through Amazon, in fact I'd buy 2 (one for myself and one for the farrier).  It would be the best $25 you ever spent.  GREAT photos and explanations.  I gave one to my farrier who does a pretty darn good job, and he says it is a great book.


Re: Need hoof markup assistance -- Lavinia

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Karen,

Thanks for checking in. Will get those done in time for the farrier.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Need hoof markup assistance -- Lavinia

kshanna92
 

Lavinia, just checking in to make sure Rianza is still on your list for hoof markups.  The farrier is scheduled for Friday.  Again, I appreciate your assistance and recommendations and look forward to receiving them.  Thank you!
--
 Karen and Rianza
May 2011
Florida, USA
Case History 
 


Re: White Line and Trim Discussion with New Trimmer

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Great points, Jill.

I'd like to add that the technically speaking, what you are seeing at ground level in a stretched toe is the white line BUT what you also need to realize is that because it is an elastic structure, it stretches. Don't be fooled into using the displaced location as the correct one or you will just continue to trim to the pathology.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: White Line and Trim Discussion with New Trimmer

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Bonnie,

The white line is one of the "sacred cows" of trimming, as it should be when you are dealing with a healthy, well-attached, tight white line. However, you need to keep in mind that it isn't a static structure but is a seam that can (and does) stretch and deform based on the forces that are acting on it. In a damaged foot, it is no longer a reliable trimming guide so you need to base your assessment and trim on markers that are much more stable:

- locate the bar termination at the bottom of the collateral grooves(don't use the leading edge of a probably overgrown, distorted bar)
- locate the actual widest part of the sole at the perimeter of the hoof (not where a flared wall is widest)
- find the true tip of the frog (not the tip of an atrophied and/or stretched one)

Some links to pass on:

Equine Lameness Prevention Organization, Inc: Gene Ovnicek'a site

https://s3.amazonaws.com/amo_hub_content/Association1287/files/ProtocolStudyGuidePack.pdf

Paige Poss, who does loads of work with cadaver feet and anatomy plus is a conservative trimmer:

http://www.ironfreehoof.com/

Pete Ramey:

http://www.hoofrehab.com/

There are lots of photos on each of these sites.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: White Line and Trim Discussion with New Trimmer

 

While waiting for Lavinia to respond, may I suggest you have a conversation with your trimmer about how she views the concept of long toes?  I got my initial education from a farrier who teaches a barefoot trimming "method" with an emphasis on balance but taught his beginning students to never go through the white line. He also told newbies to not trim problem feet until they had taken his more advanced program but I discovered immediately upon starting to trim for other folks that stretched toes and run under heels were the norm in my area where horses go 8 weeks between trims if they are "well cared for" or months/years if not and obesity and subclinical laminitis are very common.  I figured out pretty quickly through experience, cadaver dissections and Ramey clinics that this "rule" applies to a non-deformed hoof capsule. It does not apply to a hoof where the dorsal wall has been dragged forward over time.  I was so irritated with his leaving out such critical information that I detached myself from that program and continued to learn from others instead.

Perhaps she has educational materials that she uses to teach her clients about internal structures that you could go over with her to lead her to seeing on her own what happens to the placement of the white line as the toe wall departs horizontally from the coffin bone?  Or any of the radiographs in the files here of long toes would be even better for pointing out that the white line she is seeing is not the true one. 
--
Jill, Khari and Jetty in Idaho

NRC Grad 2010


White Line and Trim Discussion with New Trimmer

 

I just switched trimmers, had been using a farrier that was set in his ways so decided to take a gamble and try a younger female trimmer. I asked her to take my horse's toes back. She didn't understand my definition (ECIR) of backing the toes. Eventually I got it explained but she didn't want to rasp into the "White Line". I said that the obvious white area wasn't the true white line and she disagreed with me.

I need a good explanation (from a source that she will recognize and believe) and ideally a good photo to send to her. Would love to be pointed to a web site that has educational material for the type of trim that ECIR is recommending. This trimmer is open to my requests but I need material to demonstrate what I am asking for.
--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case HistoryPhoto Album

 


Re: Progress of solar abscess - anything else to do?

 


Thanks, Lavinia. A tiny drain at the outside edge of the sole makes sense to me, like the area of hoof wall separation where I suspect it drained without our noticing. It's hard to persuade my trimmer to do things differently than he wants to. He has too much experience and too many referrals from the Tevis cup team of a hoof boot and shoe manufacturer and from the state's premier vet school and head farrier to listen to me. My back is too old to learn trimming, so I need to continue with gentle persuasion. I don't think we did much damage. If there is a next time I'll just keep my mouth shut and work on the abscess myself.

--
Cass for Cayuse and Diamond
Sonoma County, California-Oct.'12
Case History
Photos


Re: Progress of solar abscess - anything else to do?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Cass,

Once it has drained, there is nothing you need to do for a sub-solar abscess. What's left is an empty space between the old, exfoliating sole and the new, live sole. Leave the old sole in place until it peels off naturally on its own as it is still serving as a protective layer for the not-quite-ready-for-prime-time under layer. If the old sole is removed (whether on its own or cut away) before the new material has a chance to harden off, the horse will be quite tender - like you would be if part of your calloused sole is removed and you walk barefoot. It takes time for new sole to become calloused sole.

I don't recommend digging around into the sole to find/release abscesses as that just opens up a channel into the hoof for pathogens to use for access. It can also thin areas that may be too thin already. Soaking, wrapping to encourage drainage is your best bet - which is what you did. Sometimes, these things get resorbed, sometimes they drain out. If the horse is really sore and a sub-solar abscess is resistant to resolving, I will open a a small area at the perimeter of the hoof to allow it to drain in an area that doesn't compromise the center of the sole under where the coffin bone puts pressure. Take your cues from Cayuse's comfort. She may need padded boots for a time while she rebuilds the callousing or the process may already be far enough along that she is fine.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Progress of solar abscess - anything else to do?

 

I'd like to check if there is soaking or anything else I should now do  (or should have done differently) to address a dry solar abscess site (I think that's what it is).

On January 19, about a month after I started J-Herb just cuz, Cayuse became toe-pointing lame on LF. She was first foot sore in May-June 2017, at the time she was suspected of having PPID.  I have a photo taken about a week after the toe-pointing in Cayuse's photos. Hoof testers showed her tender on the rear quadrant of the LF lateral side.  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/7296/50?p=Name,,,50,1,50,0

Epsom salts soaks and numotizine poulticing didn't seem to do anything. We never recognized an abscess exit site. A couple of months later, the location of the abscess was obvious when a bit of sole flaked off, helped, over my objections, by my trimmer who insisted in some probing to make sure there wasn't a nearby pocket of infection. https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/7296/53?p=Name,,,50,1,50,0

I soaked and poulticed again in early March, also with no results *I* could see - no odor, no exudate. Cayuse remained slightly tender on the LF, taking the occasional off step going downhill on gravel. We kept the crater cleaned, sanitized with Thrush Buster (purple stuff) and filled with Artimud topped with Hoof Stuff.

After the latest trim, the Artimud/Hoof Stuff filling the small crater won't stay put. I think hoof flexing just pops any filler right out.  Cayuse seems perfectly comfortable on the LF, though I haven't put her in work because my round pen is only now dry enough to drag, in time for the next massive rain storm arriving tomorrow.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/7296/54?p=Name,,,50,1,50,0

Is there anything else I need to do or worry about at this point? Should I have done something differently to begin with? This doesn't seem like the "normal" course for an abscess, if there is such a thing.
--
Cass for Cayuse and Diamond
Sonoma County, California-Oct.'12
Case History
Photos


Re: Need hoof markup assistance -- Lavinia

kshanna92
 

Yes, Lavinia, it's certainly my desire to get Rianza back barefoot too.  I just felt when she was really struggling a few weeks ago, and since my vet and farrier were both recommending front shoes, that I would agree to that until I could get back to the ECIR group and get the radiographs to someone (you :)) for markups.  Having the markups done back in 2013 for my farrier back in Illinois to follow is what made all the difference in the world then and I knew immediately when Rianza began having issues again that I was going to need to do that again now, that her trims had definitely gotten off base again.   I have printed off all your thoughts and suggestions so far and really look forward to receiving the markups.  Again, thank you --

Karen and Rianza
May 2011
Florida, USA
Case History 



 

--
 
Karen & Rianza in Florida
 


Re: white line disease.. white lightning vs cheaper fixes like oxine

larockj@...
 

LJ, I've posted about Oxine AH before - search the following thread for "Oxine":

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/6229015#214077

Jessica - July 2015
New York

Mimi - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20and%20Mimi

Photos - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1874


Re: Should I keep my concerns to myself?

grandmalynn44
 

Thanks, Josie, I will suggest those options with my friend and I’ve also suggested joining this group. He is a person who enjoys learning and his horse would benefit greatly from what he could learn here. 

Lynn and Mica
N. CA
May 2011


Re: Should I keep my concerns to myself?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Lynn,

Always a loaded question when you are dealing with someone else's horse.

From what you've said, your friend needs to have radiographs done to see what is going on. Blocking injections are good for locating where the pain is coming from but don't provide any answers as to why. Before spending $400 on injections, it would make sense to know why there is pain. Most likely, there are trim issues that need to be addressed. The shoes and injections are masking/putting band-aids on the problem(s) rather than attempting to solve them. Good that the vet recommended trim changes but that also suggests there are more trim issues than have already been mentioned.

Many horses live in shoes their entire lives. Is it the best thing for the health of these horses feet - no. But it is the easiest, cheapest thing for their owners and is quite common practice. If the trimming is done correctly, the negative effects are minimized and the horse can live out its life serviceably sound. The best case scenario would be that the shoes being applied would be composites of some sort, glued on with DIM or packing underneath to disperse load-bearing appropriately, changed every 4-5 weeks to keep everything optimized. This best-case is also going to be quite expensive so not likely to be path of choice for the average horse owner. Without getting into a philosophical debate, metal shoes are the least expensive, most widely accepted means to keep the average horse sound enough to perform its intended job for the average owner with the least amount of hassle for all concerned.

If an owner is going to go this route, then at the very least make sure the trim itself is optimal as that doesn't require the investment of any more money or time on the owner's part and helps the horse the most.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Need hoof markup assistance -- Lavinia

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Karen,

The soapbox wasn't aimed directly at you but as a general comment.

To get the heels and sinking under control you need to remove the underlying causes, then set the hoof capsule up for healing by making sure the trim is optimal. No area that is already too thin/short/ low should ever have more removed from it. You need to have patience and wait for those areas to add more material before addressing them. Underrun heels can only be directly addressed if there is enough material on the sole to move them back without resulting in a dropping of the heels relative to the front half of the foot. With thin soles, that is not possible. So, you back the toes to keep the breakover in the correct place, leave the soles/frogs/bars/heels alone and wait for more depth to develop before fine tuning the heels themselves. Also keep flaring solidly controlled by bringing the wall flares inward and beveling.

For sinking, you need to get the hoof capsule realigned to the location of the structures within so it isn't being torn apart from its connections each time the horse takes a step. Then you keep the trim tight so that the new growth remains tightly attached as it proceeds on its way from the top of the hoof capsule toward the ground. In the process, this will begin to lift the bony column so that it is sitting higher within the hoof capsule. How long this takes, how much it can reverse are individual to each horse and depend on the amount of damage that has been done and how well the new growth remains firmly attached to the coffin bone. A full regrowth of a hoof capsule takes from 9-12 months on average.

Whether you choose to keep her in shoes or not is your choice. There are trade-offs. Being in shoes of any kind will always result in an overall weaker hoof structure BUT that may be a needed compromise in some cases. You will never resolve sinking while in shoes because of the added stress that shoes place on the laminar connections. Regardless of which choice you make, the trim needs to be optimized first. Here are links that may help with the conceppts and specifics:

http://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsesSole.html

http://www.hoofrehab.com/Seasons.html

http://www.hoofrehab.com/DistalDescent.htm

http://www.hoofrehab.com/BootArticle.htm

If Rianza was my horse, I would remove the shoes, get the trim corrected and use well fitted hoof boots with whatever type pads are needed to make her comfortable until such time as she no longer needs them. I don't see any overwhelming reason she needs to remain in shoes and I think she would make better progress without them. Keep in mind, my personal bias is for barefoot.

I should be able to get you mark-ups in time for the next trim.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: white line disease.. white lightning vs cheaper fixes like oxine

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Depends on what you are treating for. Yes, you can substitute oxine, water and citric acid in many cases just as effectively.

For many situations, plain apple cider vinegar (ACV) works just as well, is available at your local grocery store and is inexpensive.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


white line disease.. white lightning vs cheaper fixes like oxine

LJ Friedman
 

white lightning is expensive..  I read that oxine and water and citric acid works just as well.   thoughts? 
--
LJ Friedman San Diego nov 2014

 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse

 

 


Re: Should I keep my concerns to myself?

Josephine Trott
 

Hi Lynn,

One suggestion - my trimmer heard of these shoes, polyflex,  https://www.polyflexhorseshoes.com
that make some horses sound even though they've had soundness issues in normal shoes - basically because they are glue on and made of composite material, not metal.  Even if the nails don't 'quick' the horse, for some horses they are uncomfortable - or at least that's what it seems.  I've dealt with my share of falling off hoof boots and can understand your friend's reluctance.  I have barefoot horses, am a big advocate of barefoot is best, but also know of horses that have been shod their whole lives and have been sound.  Up to their mid 30s.  

You might suggest these, or even Epona Shoes (which don't hang all the weight on the walls as do normal shoes.  http://www.eponashoe.com) - as possible options to help the horse's pain levels without expensive pastern injections.  I'd think they'd be worth a try.  However, with application of all shoes, a correct trim is vital.

Josie
Davis CA 06/09


Should I keep my concerns to myself?

grandmalynn44
 

A friend and I were discussing his horse's front foot pain.  Treatment for the pain is periodic injections in the pastern  area that will cost around $400 per injection.  No X-rays were done.  Diagnosis was made through blocking injections.  
The vet also suggested the farrier make some trimming adjustments before shoeing. When my friend told me his 16 year old mare is never without shoes because he doesn't want to bother with hoof boots and rides daily, I said he may want to consider whether the constant use of shoes could be part of the problem.  Is it possible for a horse to never be without shoes, assuming the shoeing was correctly done, and suffer no ill effects?  I mentioned to him the problem of the weight of the horse hanging entirely from the hoof capsule as it is when the horse is shod, rather than sharing the weight with the sole as is the case when the horse is barefoot.   I'm not sure I'm even right about this and don't want to pass on misleading information.

Lynn and Mica
2011. N. CA

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