Date   

side bone/ lavinia

Daisy Shepherd
 

i am asking for a friends horse who has side bone and is making him not sound. she has a good farrier and he is in shoes for side bone but remains not sound;  better with bute but not long lasting; former eventer but now only flat work.  do you have any suggestions for her. thank you, daisy and tiko


Re: Aloe vera

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi LJ,

This is a post that should be on the main group as it isn't about hooves.

Thanks.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Aloe vera

lj friedman
 

Im trying aloe vera liquid for possible ulcers. Im using 8 oz twice a day. Is it ok to mix it in and be absorbed by my carrier? Im using hygain zero for this purpose


Re: Boot Question

Deb Walker
 

Hi Kim. I completely understand your concerns with boots. For 100% of the time since August of 2017 to currently, Scotty has been in either Clouds, Stratus, or glue on shoe/boots 24/7. He has never had thrush. Except for when he specifically had to keep them on without changing (when he first had Ultimates on and later when he had a 5-6 week period of Stratus boots on without changing them per farrier's instructions) I take his boots off each day. Scrub out the shavings and/or dirt with a wire brush and use a softer brush to liberally apply $ Store medicated powder from his knees down. I have found that their poor legs and pasterns get really itchy, and if your horse is anything like Scotty, she will stand like a statue while you brush her legs and fetlocks working the powder in. As Diane mentioned, it is valuable to have a backup pair (or two) so that if they get really wet from either rain or sweat, that you can switch your horse to completely dry ones while the others get cleaned and dried out. If it's a hot, sunny day, I set them in the sun to dry; otherwise I loop them over the rail where his barn fan is blowing and let the fan do the work. I was really REALLY worried about thrush when all of this started, as he has had it in the past as a barefoot horse in various boarding situations. But I've been very pleased to not have had it happen (yet) with the boots.
--
Deb and Scotty I/R Probably PPID
Northwest Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619


Re: Boot Question

 

Hi Kim,
Keeping the hoof dry in the Big and bulky boots is hard.  Best to have 2 sets.  One on the horse, one washed and drying.  I really like the Scoot Boot for extended turn out.  It is open and breaths nicely. It is flexible and a 6mmpad can be used.  The only time the Scoots do not work is in wet winters that freeze.  Cold induced laminitis needs socks or leg wraps.  Scoots will let the socks get to wet.  For long term protection, many boots for different times.


Re: Boot Question

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Kim,

Before you put the boots on, liberally dust her soles with athlete's foot powder (like Gold Bond or the generic versions) or diatomaceous earth. That will help to keep everything drier and keep the greeblies at bay.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Boot Question

Kim <Vandrissefarm@...>
 

Good Morning.

I ride my horse in Cavallo's, as she is sore on gravel, she was just trimmed and stepped on a rock... go figure... and she's lame on the left front. I'd like to keep her in boots for a few days - she's sound in boots. How do you keep the hoof dry? I worry about her getting thrush or other issues wearing them for too long. 

I did cast her right after her trim, but they didn't stay on for more than 10 hours... not sure what I did wrong this time but she walked right out of them... Ugh... she wants to be barefoot...

Thanks for you advise! Kim
--
Kim Van Drisse
Van Drisse Family Farm
920-654-2006
Two Rivers, WI USA


Re: ADMIN notice: signing posts

Deb Walker
 

Thanks for the reminder Lavinia. I saw others weren't including it, so wasn't sure it was protocol. I think I have it changed here, but will try to change/add it on other subgroups.
--
Deb and Scotty I/R Probably PPID
Northwest Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619


Re: Hoof cracks help please.

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

No problem, Maria.

Having a good, solid trim in place is going to be a huge bonus as this damage grows out so that any tearing forces are kept to a minimum at all times.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Hoof cracks help please.

Maria Duran
 

Hi Lavinia, 

Thanks for giving me a campion. It is crystal clear. I have already talked to my friend so that he asks the trimmer to put an eggbar again tomorrow. I don't know if he will accept but I have been very clear saying that he needs it for a full growth.

He just considered that a normal shoe was going to be enough but it is clear it is not. However he did a very good trim in my opinion.

Thanks again for being patient and explaining again the obvious.

María.


Re: Hoof cracks help please.

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

It sounds like contrary to what the trimmer thought, the horse needs the support of the eggbar shoe for a lot longer time frame. Unfortunately, 8mm of new growth for this type of injury is just not enough to hold the hoof together. It may actually require two full cycles of hoof capsule replacement to get an really good, strong hoof capsule, although with a tight, balanced trim in place you likely won't need any type of shoes after the first entirely new hoof capsule. If there is motion in that crack, it will just tear apart. You may be able to substitute casts at some point instead of shoes but for now, I'd go back to the eggbars.

Due to the extent of the damage, and the size of the horse, it will likely require keeping the eggbar shoe on until the damage has grown out at least 2/3 of the way, maybe even all the way to the ground. As you know, I'm an advocate of barefoot but also recognize that sometimes you just need to accept that the restrictions a shoe provides are exactly what is needed at that time to provide the structure for healing. Although putting a broken limb in a cast causes atrophy of all the surrounding muscles, it is necessary to allow the bone to heal. Once the bone has mended, then you work on rehabbing the other structures that were impacted negatively from the immobilization. In this case, stabilizing the wall fully takes precedence over all the optimum functioning of all the other structures.

The J-herb is not creating weaker growth, it's fueling increased growth due to improving circulation to the foot thereby increasing efficiency.That means more nutrients available, waste products removed more quickly. It will take a shorter period of time for the hoof capsule to grow out fully, so the time needed to be spent in the shoes will be less overall.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Dark area X-ray dated 24.06.2019 old nov 2018 X-ray

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

HI Kath,

Please take a deep breath and slow down a tad.

If you re-read what I wrote, I said the medial HEEL is taller, not the medial wall. That's the sheared heel problem going on. Need to work on getting that corrected. I also said that it might cause bruising if it isn't corrected but that's not something you will know until further down. The lateral heel is underrun, which is adding to the problem by dropping the overall height in the back quarter of that RF hoof. The Nov 2018 rad shows similar situation but the trim was even worse at that point as the medial wall had been allowed to flare heavily (that view was also shot thru the block so distorts the view).

The lateral wall may be a tad too high overall but hard to say for sure as the rad cut off the bottom of the wall on that side.

"why didnt the bone go back with those 2017 2018 relalignment trims?" "Why didnt the pedal bone go back to correct position 2017/2018 with those trims?"

Sorry, don't understand what you mean here.

While technically the medial-lateral balance of the bony column in the rads wasn't too bad, the hoof capsule itself was a mess. Many times, the M-L balance was achieved by "accident" as several trim issues happened to keep the bony column even but weren't healthy or correct for growing an actually strong and solid hoof capsule itself. That weakness in the medial quarter has been there for a long time - that entire wall completely collapsed at one point - and the ramifications from that damage will likely be an issue for a long time due to the extent of that damage. Need to remember that his trims (thru NO fault of your own) were abysmal long before that time in 2016 when it all came to a head. The trim vacillating all over the place on a regular basis now is not helping to move things forward.

There was a point when the toes got taken back correctly and the overall trim was starting to look much better. But the soles kept getting pared away, which meant Micky never developed proper sole depth nor calloused sole/frog. That was a sure recipe for tenderness and bruising. The best parts of that trim also weren't maintained long enough for the entire hoof capsule to grow out from top to bottom so that you had complete stronger attachments and he could gain the most benefit from the improvements.

The frog is much softer tissue than the hoof wall, so any issues with how the walls/bars/heels are growing will displace and/or distort the frog. Both heels are supposed to be even with each other and with the back of the frog. In Micky's case, the RF lateral heel buttress has run forward of it's actual location but the atrophied frog has not. Because of the total collapse of the medial wall, underrunning of the lateral heel, long toes and various other trim issues over time, the entire hoof capsule has twisted medially to some degree. That "bum crack" is because the heel bulbs are underrun, just as the heels are. It will heal, and the central sulcus will become more properly defined, only after the toes get brought back, the breakover gets set in the correct location, the sheared heel issue is corrected. Only after the hoof capsule "stands up" so that all the structures are in their proper relationship to one another and are squarely situated under the bony column so everything is supported properly will you be able to truly see what Micky's soundness is going to be.

That will all take time to correct but all the time in the world won't do any good if the trim doesn't get squared away and maintained optimally at all times. That is the part that has not yet happened in all the time we've been working on this.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Boots

Deb Walker
 

Thanks Lavinia. We are on the same page as to what I have tried.

Today, for kicks...(Hmmm) I found Scotty's old Gloves, and found probably a 6mm pad (I'm not good with mm, probably 1/4 inch) that I inserted, and thought I would give it a try. Way cooler than Clouds or anything else I have. He accepted them well, and they still fit with the pads inserted. But I left them on while doing chores and could see that he was just not happy or walking well. After watching him struggle, I switched him back to Clouds with Soft Ride inserts/pads and a sponge on his left to keep it from twisting :(


Re: Dark area X-ray dated 24.06.2019 old nov 2018 X-ray

Kath Chase
 

see previous messages if we do as you say by trimming medial wall shorter yes it could fix the sheared heel twisted hoof problem, looking at recent DP rad LATERAL side hoof wall is longer???? not medial . confused.   if we do as you say my thinking is then the lateral side of bone will raise up fractionally so all looks great bone wise from behind but my concern is if we do this, then he might weight bear causing BRUISING again.  repeat again we have no bruising now. im not wanting to make more mistakes. wrong descisions. Could you check DP rad again please and mark up.  Many thanks, What if back of pedal  bone was never even to begin with we dont know.
--
Kath & Micky 
Yinnar Australia
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9614&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0


Re: Dark area X-ray dated 24.06.2019 old nov 2018 X-ray

Kath Chase
 


-- also go back phots 2017  he has always had that quarter crack LINE  since 2017 trims. Is there you need to really look medial side, that line has showed weakness that medial side all the way along . that line may even have been there prior need to find more photos.

Kath & Micky 
Yinnar Australia
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9614&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0


Re: Dark area X-ray dated 24.06.2019 old nov 2018 X-ray

Kath Chase
 

HIi Lavinia, Thanks

Continueing on from last message  you said MEDIAL SIDE WALL LONGER TIPPING HIM ONTO MEDIAL SIDE TOE CAUSING BRUISING??? coming down for past 12months.

I am very confused???  WE HAVE NO BRUISING NOW

looking at new rad  DP which was taken straight remember Mickys right leg has always been slightly crooked. LATERAL SIDE IS LONGER???  November rad DP lateral side is slightly longer too. 

i really appreciate your help, im just trying to find answers,  Yes sole shouldnt be touched i totally agree.  is it it ongoing infection happening here causing distortion why didnt the bone go back with those 2017 2018 relalignment trims? why was micky lame on and off after those trims? many thanks for being so patient with me i know its incredibly frustrsting and difficult for you.

We have tried short toes, why did he keep going lame?

We have had medial laterlaL balance pretty bang on 2017/ to mid 2018 why did he keep going lame and have bruising?

Why didnt the pedal bone go back to correct position 2017/2018 with those trims?

There is more here going on? it looks to me at present Micky looks like he is trying to grow normal grey frog, but is growing hoof wall on lateral side back of frog why is it because he sore there is there pressure there? look at at 2017/2018 pictures his frog didnt look normal there was no central sulcus, it looks like he is trying to grow central sulcus now. if you look at photos 2018 february you will start seeing changes happening in the centre back of the foot where he has bum crack now but bu,m crack now doesnt look as bad will try and get more photos for you.


--
Kath & Micky 
Yinnar Australia
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9614&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0


Re: Dark area X-ray dated 24.06.2019 old nov 2018 X-ray

Kath Chase
 

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 09:23 AM, Lavinia Fiscaletti wrote:
Hi Kath,

Thanks for adding the latest rads to Micky's album.
For future reference, sedating a horse to the point that he can barely stand is counter-productive if your goal is to be able to take appropriate radiographs of his feet. Next time, if he cannot stand comfortably due to pain just use nerve blocks so that he cannot feel the pain but is perfectly aware and able to maintain his balance. Nerve blocks wear off quickly so there are no lingering effects.

As we already knew, his toes are way too far out ahead of where they need to be, soles are much thinner than is optimal. His coffin bones are sitting ground parallel so absolutely nothing off the heels with the EXCEPTION of that RF medial heel. That excess height is tipping him forward onto the front half of that foot, possibly causing bruising, plus is adding twisting and tearing forces to the already weak wall on that medial side. The sharp, upward bulge in the coronary band is a red flag that a quarter crack could start in that location if the imbalances aren't rectified.  NOTHING off the soles.

Placing that tack into the sole without shortening the stem was .......
The frog is stretched forward, which goes along with the toes being too long.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


 On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 09:23 AM, Lavinia Fiscaletti wrote:
Hi Kath,

Thanks for adding the latest rads to Micky's album.
For future reference, sedating a horse to the point that he can barely stand is counter-productive if your goal is to be able to take appropriate radiographs of his feet. Next time, if he cannot stand comfortably due to pain just use nerve blocks so that he cannot feel the pain but is perfectly aware and able to maintain his balance. Nerve blocks wear off quickly so there are no lingering effects.

As we already knew, his toes are way too far out ahead of where they need to be, soles are much thinner than is optimal. His coffin bones are sitting ground parallel so absolutely nothing off the heels with the EXCEPTION of that RF medial heel. That excess height is tipping him forward onto the front half of that foot, possibly causing bruising, plus is adding twisting and tearing forces to the already weak wall on that medial side. The sharp, upward bulge in the coronary band is a red flag that a quarter crack could start in that location if the imbalances aren't rectified.  NOTHING off the soles.

Placing that tack into the sole without shortening the stem was .......
The frog is stretched forward, which goes along with the toes being too long.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


 Hi Lavinia , can you just have another look at the recent  Right front DP X-ray please, it looks to me  X-ray  DP right front lateral side is longer on that side not medial confused????  Can you mark it up exactly where please 
--
Micky wasn't in  such pain, he could have easily have stood on those blocks straight. I had given 5ml bute that morning. It was the crazy local vet again. Refused to do a nerve block, said he was having RLP so he will sedate, it was a nightmare he sorted with putting two blocks under one foot and none under the other I flipped it and said he needed to stand Evenly, then he said I didn't know what I was talking about, then I bursted into tears  then he said alright I'll do what you want as the first Rads were all crooked I told him to dele them they are hopeless,  Micky of course  was uncomfortable  the only thing he would be not being sedated, is try to point right foot , that's it,  south eastern vet she is lovely kind sympathetic brilliant vet but can't get down she is liasing instructing local vet, she said possibly still serum in the foot or infection  she said hard to tell,  has recommended more regional limb perfusion, still waiting on local vet, likely doesn't want to do it. Agree totally with soles, that was my fault this time I asked farrier to trim him I think weeks ago   Farrier didn't want to,  I was worried then Micky was going into mechanical failure again , see 31 May pic, my mistake, yesterday no trim decided to leave trim  for now, til I heard from you or hoof rehab.

South eastern  vet said yesterday  the remodelling looks more rounded solar medial side now also. 

Still feel like I'm going in circles and not getting to the answer I need. Yes I know he needs sole we have tried many times to grow it 

Is is it possible Mickys RF pedal bone was never normal to begin with ? 

is it possible  realignment trims 2017  2018  didn't work, still kept going lame   Is serum stuck in festering causing infection?

We have tried to grow the sole as you know,  but foot keeps growing distorted . Why? 

Yes trims did did look better 2017 3018 but have had 12 months bruising. 

THERE IS NO BRUISING ON SOLE now, I did say in one message I thought medial side was longer I think it looked longer because of the shearing. 

Looking ar latest rad  lateral side looks longer.  Remember medial lateral balance 2917 2018 was bang on, Micky kept going lame 12 months of bruising. I'm missing something why?  There's no bruising now toes do look to long I agree? But we have that remodelling spike sitting out the front  if toe cut too short and it was short 2017 3018 cause bruising? I feel like I've got to find the right answers. Why won't the pedal go back to where it should be ? Those trims 2017 2018 I thought were correct? Were they ? 

Kath & Micky 
Yinnar Australia
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9614&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0


Re: Hoof cracks help please.

Maria Duran
 

I have one question, the horse was recovering well. He has a different trimmer that made a very good job in my opinion trimming the hooves and he changed the egg shoe to a normal shoe because he said it was enough. He is a barefoot trimmer and a farrier. He changed to barefoot because he said shoeing was not good for the horse and learned a new way, however he shoe horses if for some nasty reason they need it like in this case.

The horse had grown over 8 mm of new hoof and yesterday he had tiny blood spots over the coronary band and today the crack has opened again.

Because the horse is getting jiaogulan, I would like to know if the rapid growth could lead to a more weak tissue. I mean developing too fast but with less quality because of the fast growth.

Is it possible?

Thanks a lot.

María Durán
Madrid, Spain.


Re: Periople

Maria Duran
 

Thank you very much Lavinia. I didn't know the extension covering the hoof as I see it longer or shorter depending on the horse.

Thanks!

María Durán.


Re: Boots

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Duct tape can be used on the outside of the boot to help keep the velcro closed - just wrap it around the entire boot so it overlaps itself as it sticks best to itself. You can also use it over diapers for more durability, tape hoof pads on with it, make temporary booties - your imagination is the limit.

It can be applied directly across the heel bulbs to prevent abrasion/sores from occurring if boots have a tendency to twist. Can also stick it directly to the hair on the hocks/hips for a quick "hock wrap" to prevent pressure sores from developing on horses that are down for extended periods or find it difficult to get up.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support

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