The most recent radiographs (April 2020) are in Majestic's photo album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photosearch?q=LJ+and+majestic

The most recent rads do show improvement in the trim over what was present in May 2018, except in the sole depth, which is definitely worse now. Latest rads show thin soles, longer-than-ideal toes, some sinking and a somewhat broken back HPA - RF worse than LF. These things would all be contributing to the worsening ringbone. Shoes won't help any of those things, but they may temporarily hide some of the lameness that is present. Until they don't.

Need to optimize the trim in order to actually address the causes of the worsening ringbone.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support

Hi Kathy,

Cellulitis can return again as it seems to have some effect on the circulatory system but it's usually a sudden onset, causes acute swelling and possibly lameness along with the swelling and is then resolved.  What you're describing is something that you probably want to discuss with your vet as it could be arthritis, hock issues, or something with a suspensory or tendon or any other part or her leg that's causing the issue. 
--
Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge)
EC Primary Response 
PA 2014
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891

Recent x-rays, which I haven’t posted yet show Majestics ringvbone has progressed from mild to moderate
--
LJ Friedman San Diego nov 2014

 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse

 

 

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone knows if there is potential of cellulitis causing long term damage
to the leg. My horse had a case of it a little over year ago along with a big abscess in the toe
in the left hind leg. She had 3 flareups before I found out that it was cellulitis causing the swelling
and not the abscess. I had never heard of cellulitis before then so I have no experience with this.

The reason I ask this is she is showing signs of lameness in that leg when she
is going downhill while trail riding and she is mildly lame for short while after. Rubbing her leg down
with liniment does seem to help. When she is on flat, she seems fine. I was wondering if
the cellulitis could have done some kind of damage to that leg.

Thanks
Kathy in Ohio

LJ,  I missed Cass’s post because I don’t follow the hoof group as closely.  I may be off base on the group rules but, if Majestic is IR/PPID and has a case history, I would post any issues regarding his care on the main group and wait for someone to ask you to move it.
I totally agree with Cass that the orthopedic vet who did the ultrasounds should be brought into this.  An apparent RF lameness could well be related to LH suspensory issues.  It could also be that the ringbone progression is related.  Did the ortho vet do any follow up work after their original recommendations?  Suspensory issues usually require long term rehabilitation but I have no idea how to read ultrasounds so I’m just reflecting generally.
--

I did move  my steroid question to the main list. Thank you again for the alert.
--
LJ Friedman San Diego nov 2014

 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse

 

 

The clinic he was ridden  by his current trainer.
--
LJ Friedman San Diego nov 2014

 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse

 

 

Thank you for sending that post about laminitic risk. I knew that steroids didn’t sit right with me. Now I will push back. Thinking my general vet who knows my horse is Cushing’s but not IR, should know better?
--
LJ Friedman San Diego nov 2014

 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse

 

 

LJ,
I see Majestic's CH file includes ultrasound findings on hindlimb suspensories! 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse/Majestic

That orthopedic vet is who you want diagnosing Majestic's limp.

Steroid injections!!?! Where? Without a diagnosis? Even with a diagnosis, I wouldn't. This proposal should be posted on the main list. Steroids can cause laminitis in IR/PPID horses. See for example 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/206340 

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse Case History                Cayuse Photos
Diamond Case History              Diamond Photos 

LJ, he is well named!
I, too, see a head bob of sorts but agree that you can’t diagnose anything from this video.  

My relevant experience includes:
purchasing a horse with mild ringbone which seemed to improve over the years.
purchasing another horse who was sound when I bought him and became lame after what was meant to be a ‘corrective’ trim.  I took the shoes off for the winter and asked the farrier to shoe what he found in the spring.  He was sound ever after.  Can’t recall if I had to change farriers after that ordeal as it was a long time ago.  

What does Majestic’s ‘training’ consist of?  You said he was doing 3rd level dressage when you bought him and his owner thought he needed a lesser workload.  Rarely is there a trainer who doesn’t want more from his mount.  It may be that he needs the movement but at some less demanding level.  Do you ride him also?  Is he hacked out?  Does he appear at all lame in turn out?

While watching the video you linked to, I was offered another of someone riding him in a Herr Schumacher clinic a few years ago.  Was that the previous owner riding him?  He looks very kind hearted and compliant but does tend to throw his rider a bit off to one side, which is very common.  I keep losing the link so I haven’t checked to see if it’s more obvious one direction than the other.  He’s not lame at all but it’s probably a reflection of his natural one-sidedness, something dressage training is always seeking to overcome.
--

3200 iu vit e in oil. Today I just started pentosan  injections. Hoping that will do something. My vet who is not a lameness expert; wants to inject him with a steroid. I’m unsure if I will allow that. I was thinking about using tildren  but I don’t think that would do much either. And I would not do the digital perfusion I will do the whole body as I was told that is shown to be better
--
LJ Friedman San Diego nov 2014

 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse

 

 

Majestic is a handsome guy and has such a nice way of going. He reaches nicely under himself, driving from behind.

I also think it's the RF. I'm no expert, so I'll tell you what I see from four telltale signs. I'm sure a capable lameness vet could see more in person on a straight line from behind and lunging in the opposite direction. In this case, slow motion didn't help me.

First, as Kirsten said, there is an obvious head bob. Second, listen to the footfalls. Count 1-2-3-4. Now count 1-2 looking at the fores only.  #1 is heavier on the inside/left fore.  Third, visualize how you would limp in time to the uneven footfalls. My ear coordinated with my eye says the limp is on the RF, putting heavier weight on the LF and favoring the RF. Fourth,  he's turning his nose to the outside of the circle even tho he's calm and well-schooled on the lunge line. It is not uncommon as a tactic to shift weight to make the circle less uncomfortable.  The nose tip isn't specific to hoof lameness.

I know little about ringbone except that you want A.Perfect.Trim. under those shoes. If he were mine, my first step would be a trim consultation with Lavinia -- with all the work to get good clear photos and digital X-rays. If you have a good ultrasound vet, I might check his suspensories if he shows tenderness. I had a young horse with ringbone and sidebone by age 5. It turned out  he also had a suspensory injury requiring year-long rehab.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse Case History                Cayuse Photos
Diamond Case History              Diamond Photos 

HI LJ
So when your trainer said Jesse is 'off' was that looking at him on the lunge line or feeling his lameness under saddle?

Also is he getting plenty vitamin E? Just to eliminate general muscle issues

That video is not a good way to evaluate lameness, sorry.  If anything I see him slightly favoring his left front.

Have him trotted out on hard ground in a straight line and get video of that from the side and from behind.  Lunging them in a circle both ways will also help figure it out because they tend to head bob more when the sore front foot is on the inside of the circle.   I know one horse who's lameness was only finally seen when they were lunged on a circle, on a slope, on hard ground!!

I guess the other questions are whether he's on adequan or some other kind of joint support and whether his lameness improves with movement/work (ie arthritis//joint issues) or gets worse with work/exercise (soft tissue damage, needs rest for recovery)?

Josie
Davis CA 06/09

--
Joy and Willie  
(aka FLS Boxcar Willie)

Nevada County, CA - 2019


Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526

I can definitely see a head bob but without seeing the video in slow mo I can't tell which hoof it is compensating for.  I have a very INEXPERIENCED eye though.  Maybe someone else can chime in?

--
Kirsten Rasmussen

--  Just a correction to my post. He wasn’t recently diagnosed with ringbone. He had mild ring bone when I purchased him about four years ago. Recent x-ray showed it has progressed to moderate ringbone Hilow
LJ Friedman San Diego nov 2014

 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse

 

 

-Thank you for your reply. Majestic has been off for maybe six weeks. Recently diagnosed with ringbone that progressed from mild to moderate. Put front shoes on with pads two weeks ago and t laser him  every day. Trainer says he’s lame on the right front and will not ride him until he improves. Thoughts on video?-

https://youtu.be/_uU17ta5TxM

LJ Friedman San Diego nov 2014

 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse

 

 

Question for the gurus: 

In a radiograph, when the HL zone is wider than normal (accompanied by some sinking and thin soles), what is in that widened zone? In a healthy foot, it contains the outer wall, inner wall, and laminae, yes? So in the aforementioned compromised foot, is the extra width actually inflamed laminae or is it like a lamellar wedge that is the same width all the way to the ground? Would this mean that the white line at ground level shows widening even though there is no rotation? 

--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy/Dangles%20case%20history
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

HI LJ
they're more likely to resist lifting the left front if the right front is painful bearing weight.  Same for a hind hoof pain - if the pain is in the right hind they will resist bearing all their weight on the right hind and won't want to lift the left hind.  If it's so severe that they barely want to put any weight on, say, their right front, then they would be extremely unbalanced if you tried to lift their right hind because then they'd be trying to carry all their weight on their left front and left hind.
If you're talking about a mild lameness that you can only see at the trot, it's best to have an expert evaluate the horse for head bob and 'hip hike' (best observed from behind the horse).  Head bob can sometimes come with a hind limb lameness - for example it could indicate a front right or a rear right lameness but head bobbing is more typical of a front limb lameness (bobs down when the sound front foot hits the ground).  The hip hike is typical of a hind limb lameness but you need to be really good at lameness evaluations to see it.
Best
Josie

DAvis CA 06/09

question about detecting lameness.

If a horse is off ,,for example on his right front foot, which foot in the rear would alert us to this problem. For example when the horses off on the right front you he would not want to lift a rear leg because that will put weight on the right front. Is it the RH  or the lLH,  when there is a problem in the right front as an example, 
--
LJ Friedman San Diego nov 2014

 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse