Re: Lavinia, I would appreciate help with these hinds!!

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Will do, Joella. Just going to be a couple of days before I can get to these.

Just a note that the trim has a lot of good things going for it, just needs some tweaking rather than a major revamp - which is wonderful to see .


Moderator/ECIR Support

Re: Footings for turn out area


Thank you Case and Lavinia,

I hadn't thought about the traction. When I first laid the crusher, it wasn't as course. So maybe some of the finer stuff has washed off as there is a slope to the paddock.
I do notice that I sometimes have to dig small chips out of the areas where there is a bit of wall separation. Does that mean that the crusher pieces that were laid the last time are too small?

I guess I'll go with the crusher over most of the area and see if I can get some pea gravel for areas where they are fed.

I trim my own horses and have been learning what to do and what works for them for the last 3 years.  Since they are both a bit tender now, maybe I can get some feed back on anything that should be changed. But I'll post that when I take some current pictures.

Susan in BC 2020
Copper and Ella's Case History

Lavinia, I would appreciate help with these hinds!!

J Foust

Hello Lavinia,
I hope this finds you well and doing well!!
I would be grateful for any recommendations you could offer to tweak my trimming job of the hinds.  
Her left loin is always sore.  Stifles and hocks pop.  The left rear right fore seem to have the most issues. I’ve had her ovaries ultrasounded & chiro, & trigger pt, & energy work, & an ovary flush just to make sure, & fascia work, and she’s on CTB & vet exams ... & & ... and the left loin, although much better is still touchy.   She also holds the left hind out behind whenever we hault under saddle. Saddle fit has been checked and checked and checked. I’m thinking it has something to do with that wonky black foot. 🤔🤷🏻‍♀️  So if you can teach me to “un-wonk” it that would be awesome ☺️

This is the best trim job I know how to do.  
I don’t always keep her trimmed up like this as an fyi.  If I knew I was doing the most helpful job possible I would keep up with it better. 
White foot is right rear
Black foot is left rear 
My frustration with the trim is: 
1) the medial walls are tall and steep and the hairline swoops up when the foot is on the ground but when I pick it up it I don’t see what I could take off to help this. 
2) the pastern isn’t centered especially on the black foot. I worry about her joints. 

3) the bar is ugly? Helpful? on the lateral side but I read in one of your posts to leave it when taking off the flare so I did.  
4) I don’t know how often to touch up or what to touch up. 
5) the bottom of the foot looks really asymmetrical. Is that damaging her?
6) the foot tends to think about having a bull nose.  Ugh!  I think the heels could come back more but I don’t think I can back the toe back anymore and it looks like it wants to have a broken angle already. What to do! 
7) I can’t seem to decide if I have medio-lateral balance. I keep looking and wondering and after a time she’s over it and I take her home but I’m never sure about it. 

If you see additional issues please let me know! Any insights you have time to offer would be wonderful.  Have a wonderful evening!! 


Joella Foust 
Negrette, Oliver, Riley, Graybee, Diesel, Zsa Zsa, Bronwynn
Asleep: Hunter, Snip, Houston, Frisky, RyeLee, #5

Re: Hoof abscess - burst and now horse lame again

Josephine Trott

Karen, I'm so sorry that you had to say goodbye to Haydon. May your happy memories of him sustain you during this sorrowful time.
R.I.P. Haydon

Davis CA 06/09

Re: Hoof abscess - burst and now horse lame again

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Kare, I'm so sorry for your loss. Although not easy, it sounds like you made the right and only choice for your boy given the circumstances.

Fly free, Haydon. Blue skies and green grass forever.


Moderator/ECIR Support

Re: Footings for turn out area

Lavinia Fiscaletti

If the horses are/might be IR/PPID, you can create an album in the Photos section of the case history sub-group yourself and upload photos there. Since you already have the case histories for them, I'd just put the photos there. The discussion would also take place on the main group as that's where all the topics are covered for IR/PPID horses.

If not IR and/or PPID, then the album would go here, which is Moderator upload only. You'd need to send the pix directly to me and I can create the album then upload for you.


Moderator/ECIR Support

Re: Footings for turn out area


Susan, I added some birds eye to my pipe corrals over the existing compacted footing.  I also have crusher run in parts of my turnouts where I need to supply traction during muddy weather. Larger pieces of gravel are noticeable when the crusher run gets thin and is less than 3 inches deep. If the layer is thick enough, they cushion the larger gravels, which just sink in. Birds eye is not grippy. I worry about my horses slipping on it where it covers hard ground  anyplace they race, cut and slide. 

I agree with Lavinia about the benefits of larger pea gravel, especially in a level loafing area. It's hard to come by here but one landscape supplier has started to carry it for horse facilities. I keep it away from the racetrack portions of my turnouts and have it in a small area where I feed out of bins. It's large enough that you won't find pieces of gravel embedded an any small hoof wall separation, the central sulcus or the depths of the collateral grooves. It's less likely to fly up and land inside any hoof boots you may need for your tender-footed horses when they're playing rodeo. It's supposedly very soothing to sore feet because the horse can dig in and adjust her feet to exactly where she feels most comfortable. And it may be less abrasive on those hooves that wear easily. Not sure on that latter, as my horses have very different horn quality from one another, and it's hard to know with different footings in different places.

Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse Case History                Cayuse Photos
Diamond Case History              Diamond Photos 

Re: Hoof abscess - burst and now horse lame again

Joy V

I'm terribly sorry Karen.  It's a heartbreaking thing to do, but the kindest choice.  There isn't really anything I can say to make it any better.  Thank you for being such a loving and good steward to your beloved boy.  

Joy and Willie  
(aka FLS Boxcar Willie)

Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:
Willie's photo album:

Re: Hoof abscess - burst and now horse lame again


Oh Karen, I'm so sorry for your loss.   You did everything you could for Haydon and then made the hardest decision we have to make.  I'm glad it was peaceful for him, but I know  how much it hurts.  The more we love them, the harder it is, and he sounds like a wonderful horse and friend.   
Crying tears of sympathy for you,
Laura Knie
Chappie & Beau over the bridge
2011 N IL

Re: Hoof abscess - burst and now horse lame again

Karen Hocking

Hi all

I am writing this with a heavy heart - Haydon was laid to rest two days ago. The infection had gone into the navilcular, coffin bone and tendon sheath. He had not responded to any treatments over 6 weeks. This was also after 6 months of an eye abscess not healing completely so we suspect something else may have been going on too. It's irrelevent anyway, we were only left with one option. Thanks to my vet is was stress, fear and pain free and I was with him until the end. I am heartbroken as he was my best friend.


Re: Footings for turn out area


Hi Lavinia,

Sorry - I had forgotten to  set up my signature for this group. I've already posted  case histories. There have been a few changes to their diet in  the last 2 months that I need to update in the CHs.

I've been taking hoof photos since I started trimming them.  Do I need  permission to post a few or can I upload them myself to my files folder?
Susan in BC 2020

Re: Footings for turn out area

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Hi Susan,

For the horses' feet, the best thing to use is 4"-6" of 3/8" pea stone.

Generally, horses' feet will adapt to whatever footing they spend the most time on. That they get tender footed points to a problem with their feet rather than the footing. They both may be IR, which is different from having PPID (Cushings), as that is what causes problems with sugars in the grass. Your older boy may also be early PPID, which can mean he tests "normal" during non-seasonal times of the year but has an exaggerated ACTH rise in the fall.

Creating a case history for each of them would help us to help you parse out those possibilities.


Moderator/ECIR Support

Footings for turn out area


I'd like a recommendation on the type of gravel that I should top my turn out paddock with. There is already a 1 foot base that had some bigger pieces of stone in it and some finer gravel. Most of it was placed by the previous owner of the property. It's a bit muddy around the edges in the winter when we get lots of rain. The mud is probably from organic matter that has collected over time.  About 3 years ago I added 1/2" minus crusher dust  (manufactured fines) over a lower section on the advice from the quarry owner that this is what he sells to all the horse people.  Over the last 3 years the bigger pieces of the crusher has come to the surface and they have sharp edges - like crusher products will. My 2 horses can be tender footed on it in the summer, but they seem fine in the winter. Except that my younger mare got a stone bruise on her back heel last winter from running around and playing on it. My older horse is probably pre-cushings (he tested in the normal range, but has a lot of the symptoms). He walks tenderly on the current surface at this time of the year and he can't go out on grass  right now (too much sugar) so he's in boots.

I have 3 options:

1) 3/8" minus crusher dust - which I'm told will pack hard. I looked at it and it seems to have a very low percentage of the larger pieces and is mostly the "fines". But I'm worried that the bigger pieces will work their way to the top like the 1/2" minus did.  They use this stuff for topping bicycle/walking trails in my area and those trails look uniformly smooth.
2) 1/8" crusher sand - this stuff won't pack. I think it's a bi-product of  stone crushing, but it looks like course sand. It will have sharp edges, but the pieces are small.
3) Birds eye gravel - this is the really small rounded stones that comes from a river bed. I'd guess that the biggest pieces are no more than 1/4". It won't pack either.

My main criterion is that the horses can walk comfortably on it all year and that it's good for their hooves. But it would also be nice if it drains well, although there is a slight slope from one end of the paddock to the other, so the rain can run off the top.

Oh - my older gelding has been barefoot for about 3 years now - since he first started showing signs of laminitis with the seasonal rise. My younger mare has never had shoes.


Re: Common soft tissue injury from pulling a glue on shoe?


Thanks, Lavinia. I know there's no one answer and agree completely with what you're saying. Devils Claw+Boswellia provided such dramatic relief within 4 days that it turned this skeptic into a believer.  The swelling went way down.

Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse Case History                Cayuse Photos
Diamond Case History              Diamond Photos 

Re: Anyone familiar with cellulitis

Sherry Morse

Hi Kathy,

The fact that you're seeing a difference in the muscling between her two legs plus the lameness would be a good indication to me that it's time to get the vet involved - even if it's just a phone consult at this point to see what he thinks of the situation.  Were she mine I'd have an appointment set up for a lameness exam including x-rays because it sounds like there is something chronic going on with that leg.

FWIW my mare broke her left hind pastern and then years later had two episodes of cellulitis and once went right to lymphangitis in that leg but wasn't ever lame on it otherwise.  

Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge)
EC Primary Response 
PA 2014

Cadie emergency laminitis

Vanessa Register


tested hay

Digestible energy .82

Crude protein 8.1

ADF 33.6

NDF 62.1

WSC 9.1

ESC 5.5

Starch .6

Calcium .31

Pjosporus .27

Magnesium .17

potassium 2.18

Sodium .049

Iron 130ppm

Zinc 34

Copper 7

Manganese 64

In Arizona complete with
magnesium 5g
ground flax 4 oz
salt 2 T
sprillium 1 T
Gastro elm plus slippery em dandalion root
marshmellow root and milk thistle lowder

Cadie has PPID and IR
1 pracenda
4 500mg Metforim 

Vitals heart rate 40
temp 99.9

pulse in all 4 hooves not pounding 
no heat in hooves

to treat
j herb

in boots with pads, 
icing hooves 

no improvement

soaking hay

anything I can do?

Vet coming tomorrow 
wants Cadie to have 1 G bute 
so I have ulcer guard
and smaller pen.

with boots Cadie is  shifting her weight.
without boots Cadie leans back In classic laminitis stance.

she has been very stiff for two days and today she started leaning.

cadie just came out of season.

cadie is interested in the things around her and still eating and drinking fine.

thank you,
Vanessa Register
jan 2009
just moved to patagonia AZ

Re: Common soft tissue injury from pulling a glue on shoe?


Thanks, Bonnie. That's very helpful. 

Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse Case History                Cayuse Photos
Diamond Case History              Diamond Photos 

Re: Common soft tissue injury from pulling a glue on shoe?

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Hi Cass,

What the injury might be is going to depend on what she was doing when she happened to remove the shoe: stepped on it from behind? by the opposing foot? twisted it off during a spinning move? stuck in a hole or under a root? Different scenarios will impact different areas of the limb. Palpating to localize the painful area would be my go-to, then a dialogue with the vet on what diagnostics would be most appropriate based on the apparent location of the injury.


Moderator/ECIR Support

Re: Anyone familiar with cellulitis


I'm aware that cellulitis can return & become even chronic so far that's not the case here. What I was interested in knowing is if the swelling from cellulitis could
cause unknown damage to the hock, tendons, etc. and if anyone has experience this or not. I also realize it could be something else unrelated to the cellulitis but
this didn't show up until after the cellulitis. It just got me curious if it was related somehow.

I do plan to talk to my vet but timing is a big issue. I don't know when or what actually triggers the lameness other than it shows up the most when she goes downhill.
I don't think its the trigger and it's a bit random plus it only lasts a day or so. So getting my vet there when she's lame so he can see for himself is nearly impossible. I'm not
sure if he would find something thru flex tests or not if she wasn't lame. Once the lameness is gone, she moves normally. It also doesn't happen every time I ride her either.
One other thing I have noticed is the muscle in the left hind leg isn't "toned" like the right, It appears almost "underdeveloped" in a way. My thought was to continue riding her
and with good exercise to see if there's improvement before involving my vet. The last thing I want to do is waste my money and his time but I also don't want to do more harm.

Kathy in Ohio

Re: Common soft tissue injury from pulling a glue on shoe?


Years ago one of my horses pulled a shoe and she injured a collateral ligament on the inside of her fetlock/pastern area, front leg. I had her checked by my favorite "leg" vet. She recovered just fine. After a week of rest the vet had me hand walking her 2xday  for a month. The lameness was noticeable after a few days but the injury takes longer to heal past that period where the head bobbing stops. The controlled walking exercise helps the damaged fibers heal correctly in alignment instead of being a knot of scars. Obviously I am trying to remember how my vet describes the healing process and the importance doing the walking. She was/is a track vet and dressage rider. She helped me get my endurance horse's thru various leg injuries using the controlled, slow exercise with ultrasounds to check on progress.
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case HistoryPhoto Album


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