thank you sherry; was looking more  for something to paint soles for protection.  in our extreme drought our soil is harder than usual, very rocky also; that said tikos turn out is an area where the owners do flood irrigation so he stands in wet every day. yes i am working with lavinia; now little support from vet or farrier to do much more with tighter trim, continues with shoes x4. will get recent xrays and hoof photos posted as soon as i get xrays. thanks, daisy and tiko

Hi Daisy,

Not sure what you're asking - if you need additional sole protection we recommend pads in boots. If you're looking to increase sole depth getting the trim in order and not touching the soles when a trim is done will help increase sole depth; but it will take a while to see a difference.  Did you see Lavinia's message concerning the last set of markups on the main group: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/266268 which addressed the loss of sole depth?
--
Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge)
EC Primary Response 
PA 2014
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891

what to use for thin soles? thanks, daisy and tiko

Thank you Lavinia for that information - it was my horse that had the possible osteomyelitis but treated as a hoof abscess. Thirteen months on and I still struggle with what happened so having something that could potentially explain why it went so horribly wrong helps me process it. I've become totally paranoid about hooves since and our current wet, muddy conditions aren't helping. The information you have  provided is very helpful.

Good luck Barbara with your horse and I hope it all resolves quickly.

Kind regards
Karen (Dubbo NSW Australia)

Hi Barbara,

What makes you believe he has abscesses in both fronts if he doesn't appear to be in any distress? Is he looking lame in some way? If the vet feels this may be more than a garden variety abscess, taking radiographs is in order. Prophylactic antibiotics in this type of situation is not a good idea as (A) it won't do any good and (B) these are the types of situations that contribute to the proliferation of antibiotic resistant bacteria.

An abscess is generally a self-contained, walled-off pocket around some trapped material that has no path to getting removed. Antibiotics can't penetrate that wall, or if they do, without enough concentration to actually have much effect. An abscess doesn't cause an infection in the bone - rather, it could be the result of one. The only way to get concentrated antibiotics into the hoof is to do Regional Limb perfusion, which is going way overboard for a possible hoof abscess. In the case you mention, the horse likely had osteomyelitis which was causing the never-ending drainage. It wasn't diagnosed as such but rather treated as hoof abscessing so the infection spread.

Using bute for an abscess will generally tamp down the inflammation, and therefore the pain. However, all that does is prolong the abscess because the material that is trapped and looking for a way out is still there. Once the bute is stopped, the inflammation will ramp up again until a path to the outside is achieved so everything can drain out. Although it can be unpleasant to watch, if the horse is eating/drinking/peeing/pooping, the best thing you can do is allow the abscess to mature and drain. Soaking can help soften a path to the outside and draw the material out. In a thin-soled horse, I'd be careful as you don't want to soften those already thin soles. Using an epsom salt poultice and wrapping the feet with that inside of boots would be safer. Numotizine poultice can be effective in initiating drainage and it very useful because it will change color in areas that had drainage. Scrub the foot well then apply a layer of Numotizine and cover with cotton gauze or a diaper. Secure the cotton or diaper well then put inside a boot or wrap with duct tape or Gorilla tape.  Leave on 1 to 2  days. https://www.bigdweb.com/product/code/294.do?gclid=Cj0KCQiA5vb-BRCRARIsAJBKc6KHNvrUDEU0PkpYDdE7N8moWo5i2eawvlG6XpSfhsMBWOuxClRsn9MaAmeyEALw_wcB

Moving around at will is also good for helping to get the trapped collections to move out.

The thin soles are likely the underlying cause of the abscesses (if that is what's going on). He definitely should be in boots at all times unless he's on an extremely soft surface until more sole depth develops. The thin soles are likely related to trim issues and will be a recurrent issue until the trim gets corrected and the feet become healthier.

Smile sweetly, thank the other horse owner for their concern then tell them firmly the discussion is over. This is your horse and after consulting with the vet and farrier, you have this under control.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support

Sorry, one more question.   Is it a good idea to put his hoof boots on all the time due to his thin soles?  (Riding type Cavallo's)

Barbara

My horse has, I strongly suspect, abscesses in both front hooves.    I am getting conflicting information on what to do.  Ranging from antibiotics and bute to curcumin and leave it alone to come out on its own.

The veterinarian advised putting him on antibiotics prophylactically.   I resisted this at first because all I had read said antibiotics were not used for abscesses because it they couldn't penetrate into the abscess.   However, in a search on this forum for "abscesses" I found a case where the horse was being treated externally for abscesses and eventually the horse had to be put down because the infection  went to the navicular bone, the coffin bone, and the tendon sheath.  So, I am now thinking that the antibiotics are a good thing that could prevent a catastrophic spread of the infection.   Opinions?

The veterinarian advised bute paste.  I know the philosophy on this forum is that bute does more harm than good.  But, if it relieves pain, and is used for only a short period (i.e. max dose for two days, then taper to half dose on next two days, 1/4 dose, etc.  is it really as much a problem as is suggested?    I know that when I couldn't get my broken-in-two collarbone (horse bucked me off) surgically repaired for ten days I took a LOT of ibuprofen as an antiinflammatory/pain relief.   How can I deny my horse that relief for a few days until the abscess comes out?     Opinions?

I am asking for opinions because the other person who lives here and has horses is fighting against my assertions that he probably should not have bute, and the conversation is getting heated.

I am also soaking his hooves once a day in epsom salts for about 20 minutes.   I haven't wrapped his hooves immersed in epsom salts because he has very thin soles and I'm terrified of the coffin bone (which is only about 10 mm from the sole) penetrating if the sole gets too soft.  Will soaking once a day do any good?    He has a large box stall with bedding and access to a small paddock.   He is a thoroughbred, is not IR, and I do not believe his soreness is laminitis for several reasons - no feet-out-in-front stance, pedal pulses are not bounding or even very strong, and his hooves are not hot.  He is moving around the pasture and does not appear to be in any distress.

Thanks,
Barbara

Hi Shirley,

Have you seen the replies you've gotten to your questions here and on the main ECIR group? If not, here are links to them:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/Hoof/topic/76794174#11328

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/255921

I can help you with the specifics of what needs to happen for Olaf's trim but in order to do that, I need a full set of photos of all four feet so I can do a set of mark-ups for you. Here is the link to what is needed:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1472

The photos can be uploaded to Olaf's Photo album here:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=254671
 
Please let us know if you are having trouble navigating or are getting stuck somewhere in the process.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support

Hi Shirley, 

A "tight" trim conforms to the inner hoof structures (bones) so you can see when you have radiographs just how "tight" a trim is.  Lavinia can probably describe it better but when I think of a tight trim I'm picturing no flaring, short toes, and the hoof wall rolled so that outer wall from the quarters forwards doesn't contact the ground unless the hoof is fully weight-bearing or the ground is soft and the hoof sinks in.  In Chris's case it means not letting hoof walls, especially toes, get so long that they flare and put stress on the cracked areas causing them to break away completely.  It also requires rasping every 2-3 weeks.  If your farrier comes every 4-6 or more weeks the trim will not remain tight unless your horse gets a lot of barefoot miles and can self-trim, or you can rasp in between trims.  This can be compounded because many farriers don't trim to the internal structures to start with. 

--
Kirsten Rasmussen

Hi Chris, the TCTBC are already mineral-balanced.  You just need to add salt, vit E and ground flax seed.  Depending on how much beet pulp and alfalfa you are feeding, you might need to add a little more minerals.  If it's less than 0.5 lbs, I wouldn't bother.

Lavinia is the only one who can post photos in the Hoof sub-group so you'll have to email them to her, but if you have a photo album in the main ECIR Group you can post your photos there and provide a link in your response to Lavinia here.
Here are some instructions on how to make a photo album in the main ECIR Group, and how to upload photos to it:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1474

--
Kirsten Rasmussen

Thanks. I have pictures but I'm not sure how to post them.  I am concerned in part because their pasture is dry, bare, and has plenty of rocks. THis has never bothered him in the past. He has been barefoot most of his life on the same type of conditions and has always had really solid, good feet. He started with abscesses, usually one per front hoof, each winter for the past 3 years. (about the time he was diagnosed with PPID) These cracks are deeper than usual, go almost all the way across the hoof, and are relatively deep. I'll check tomorrow for an exact depth. My fear is he will go running with his buddies, step on a rock, and chip out a HUGE chunk of hoof.

Diet- I have not had his diet balanced correctly. He is on soaked Triple Crown Balanced Timothy Cubes, a small amount of soaked beet pulp, a small amount of alfalfa, APF,  Chastetree berry powder, Tri-Amino, and 2 tabs of Prascend daily.  We are hoping to get hay again soon so he can go back to eating hay. (the hay we have is too tough/rough and he doesn't have the jaw power to chew it enough to eat it. Thus the soaked cubes)

Chris and Monte

Hi Chris,

Seeing some pix would be helpful but it sounds like you may be correct about the abscess exit points growing out. How deep are they?

Just because a horse has PPID doesn't mean it is going to have dried, cracked feet. Feet react to environment, diet, lifestyle and trimming practices. Because PPID horses tend to be older individuals, a lifetime of deficiencies and/or stress is catching up to them and uncontrolled PPID can become the "final straw" for their feet to really deteriorate. Or become the catalyst for someone finally noticing that the feet are having problems.

If your horse is on a mineral balanced diet, the Platinum Performance products aren't going to provide anything you don't already provide. If you read the analysis of the PP products, they don't provide enough of anything to supplement a flea, never mind a horse, and at a hefty cost.

Boots won't hurt anything but no need to use them unless he appears uncomfortable. As the cracks get closer to the ground, they may chip out a chunk of the walls, but usually this is only a cosmetic issue. Just keep the trim really tight to prevent any additional, unnecessary strain on the weakened areas. Obviously, that's now a head-ache with losing your trimmer unexpectedly.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support

Hello,  My Monte (28yr old) is on 2mg of Prascend daily.  When he came up to the barn a few days ago I noticed horizontal cracks on both front hooves. They are about 6 inches long, and run halfway between the ground and the band.  He is not lame at all. He had an abscess in each hoof this spring so I wondered if this was the result of them growing out. The vet said no. He said it is common for Cushings horses to have dried and cracked feet.  He would like us to start him on Platinum Performance Hoof Care. He also suggested boots until they grow out.  I am hesitant to start him on any supplements without checking in here first.

AND to make things worse our trimmer just retired unexpectedly and with no warning!

I'm looking for any suggestions or advice. Thanks in Advance.
Chris and Monte

Hi Caroline,

A full set of pictures would be really helpful. Please see here for what's needed:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1472
 
You'll need to send the pix to a moderator for uploading:  Hoof+owner@ECIR.groups.io

Sounds like you've been working in the right direction thus far. Here are a few links to some info that might help as well:

See esp. figures 2 and 3 here:
https://www.hoofrehab.com/HeelHeight.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsesSole.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/FrogTrim.html

In most cases, horses like this have weak frogs and digital cushions, so protecting these areas as much as possible is a must, otherwise she will only toe walk and get more sore. Keeping this horse in padded boots will be a priority until she has developed a more robust back half of her feet. What type of footing does she live/spend the most time on? If at all possible, setting up an area where there is 6" deep of 3/8" pea stone will to stand around in will also be very beneficial.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support

Where are the pics? Need to see hoof before comenting
--
Diann Kuzma
One Hoof at a Time
PHCP Practitioner
Joined 2018

I'm trimming a horse whose front heels are literally growing horizontally and she is standing on her heel bulbs. She isn't the easiest to trim and while she is on a 4 week cycle the owner isn't able to touch up in between.  I've been addressing the toes because she had flippers instead of feet but now  they are under control her heels have come into focus.

I used a knife to remove the folded over horn in an attempt to preserve every mm of height and have addressed the 1/4 flare.  Is there anything else I - or the owner - can do?
Diet and environment have been addressed as well as possible and she is in good condition.  She has fundamentally good feet, if we can get them growing in the right direction!

Thanks in advance for any suggestions 

--
Caroline
Lincolnshire UK
Joined 2019

Hello,

This is my first post on this group.  My 12 year old MFT gelding Cadet has had three episodes of laminitis (Feb 2019, Oct 2020, May 2021).  Details of treatment and management for PPID and EMS can be found in his case history.  The most recent bout was mild, but he became more sore after an aggressive trim.  When I compare his hoof pix over time, the change in his frog is obvious.  Since Feb 2019, he has been trimmed by a knowledgeable barefoot trimmer who attends CE events regularly.  During the last 8 months, he has been in Clouds with pads 80-90% of the time.  I've read on Pete Ramey's website that these are the treatment for contracted frogs/heels.  And yet, his condition has worsened and his underrun heels have not improved either.  I'm trying to understand why.  Any comments from this group would be appreciated.


Aunna
October 2018
Oakland County, Michigan, USA
Cadet Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Cadet
Ruger Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Ruger

Cadet Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=84102

I work doing mark-ups all the time and just use the exported views.

Unless you're planning to work extensively manipulating the images, I don't think you'll miss the "extra amenities".

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support

I found a free DICOM viewer, Horos, for opening, viewing and exporting .dcm images, which are used by my veterinary office (and medical offices) for sharing high resolution digital images. I exported the high resolution images as jpegs that are easily viewed with my plain vanilla image viewer,  Preview.app. It was worth going to trouble to view the high resolution images in their detail. I can see hair at the coronary band. But do I need to keep 32 MB extra stuff that I'll never use? The database is a space hog, and I'm wondering if anyone knows if it does anything particularly fabulous to hoof radiographs. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse Case History                Cayuse Photos
Diamond Case History              Diamond Photos