Date   

Sore after trim

Andrea Richter
 

Hi my foundered pony with PPID is extremely sore after her last trim. She was also sore after her previous trim. Both were very aggressive, lots of sole, heel and toe removed. Trimmer advised icing. A bit nervous that this would restrict circulation. Thoughts?

she does not currently have a case history, but we follow the ECIR protocols and she has been on pergolide for 5 years. She is wearing boots right now  


Thanks


Re: Help with Trim on fronts for Echo

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Kathleen,

Sounds like a good plan.

That information regarding the frog is based on the idea that callused frog doesn't serve a purpose and that the frog itself shouldn't be involved much in weight bearing.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Help with Trim on fronts for Echo

Kathleen Rauchle
 

Thank you I will check it out and get it on the main group. Should I probably wait about 2 weeks before posting when she has more growth again?

I get really confused on the frogs because I was always told if become too hard over the soft frog they will bruise and get sore from that.

Thank you,

Kathleen R
Central WI
2020


Re: Help with Trim on fronts for Echo

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Kathleen,

I'll address your questions quickly here, but since Echo is definitely EMS/IR, all questions regarding her should be posted to the main ECIR group, including question about her trim. We can continue this conversation over on the main group.

In general, her trim looks nice - a lot better than much of what we tend to see. Echo appears to be trying to develop some concavity in her fronts - which is a good thing - but they have a long way to go yet. Her hind soles are very flat and are likely thinner than is optimal. Need to NOT touch the soles at all as there is already too little material there. Bars also need to be left alone for now as again, there just isn't anything on the bottom of the feet that has excess material available to work with right now. Please DO NOT trim her frogs down, as that will make her sore. She needs to develop calloused frog to protect the immature frog (the waxy looking type under the older, calloused material). That should not be exposed.

Her heels are underrun, which needs to be addressed but you don't have any vertical height available to just move them back where they should be. This will need to be a process that you target over time.

Nice job on taking clear photos of clean feet - that's really helpful. If you would like mark-ups to help guide your trims, I'll need some more current photos: dorsal, lateral, sole plane and sole of all four feet. Be careful that the laterals are true laterals, not obliques. She needs to be standing squarely on the foot when you take th shots, not with the leg fprward as that distorts the bony column alignment. Here's the link to what's needed:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1472

Please post a message on the main group when you have those up and we'll go from there.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


Help with Trim on fronts for Echo

Kathleen Rauchle
 

Hello,

I am not sure what is the correct protocol to get help with hooves but I feel I must be missing something in Echo's trim.  For 9 months I was under the guide of the Apex Trim Method.  Long story short she began to do other peoples mark ups a day before mine even when I posted first and would not follow through on after post pictures. (not the point here though).

I have been trying to trim the same but over night she developed  a large sole ridge and/or recessed sole on her fronts.  I think it is making her sore but I am not sure.  Her frogs were very hard and callused so I tried to trim them best I could with not sharp enough knives. (will order new soon).  It does not look clean.

She has had a continuous digital pulse for sometime now and I am working with Dr. Kellon on on her diet.  Also soaking the higher sugar and starch hay at night for a week now.

I am feeling really at a loss now and still trying to keep learning. Photo link is below.

Thank you,

Kathleen R
Central WI 
2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252630

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo/KATHLEEN_RAUCHLE_top_field_1st_crop_rounds_Mixed_grass_hay_2021-08-27_395849_1264%20%282%29.pdf

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo/KATHLEEN_RAUCHLE_2021_2nd_crop_sm.sq.grass_Mixed_grass_hay_2021-08-27_395848_1263%20%282%29.pdf


Re: Ringbone...which is better Uckele's Tendon EQ or Devils Claw Plus Granular

Laura and Pabatsa in CA
 

Thank you so much Dr. Kellon! Should I keep him on the Tendon EQ?

Do any herbal type supplements help with pain/soreness if he needs help?


Re: Ringbone...which is better Uckele's Tendon EQ or Devils Claw Plus Granular

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

His "ringbone" is actually pastern joint arthritis so best to think in terms of joint. Your vet seems to be interested in preserving joint at this point but somewhere along the line the best thing is going to be to fuse the joint. Between IRAP and Adequan I don't think a supplement will have much to offer.
--
Dr. K


Ringbone...which is better Uckele's Tendon EQ or Devils Claw Plus Granular

Laura and Pabatsa in CA
 

Dr. Kellon/Group,

Last week Pabatsa got IRAP in both feet for ringbone. Currently he gets Tendon EQ but I'm wondering whether Uckele's Devils Claw Plus Granular would be more appropriate? My vet suggested he go on Adequan starting this week. I'm not sure what to be giving him at this point.

Thank you for your help!
--
Laura and Pabatsa in California
Feb 2012
Case History https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20a nd%20Pabatsa ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20and%20Pabatsa )
Pabatsa's Photos https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 )


Re: xrays show arthritis,,, how to trim to support the arthritis

Trisha DePietro
 

Thanks Lavinia. I have kept a journal of sorts for Dolly over the years and she has been evaluated for lameness  several times-  Those evaluations did not include xrays. Like an elderly human with arthritis, she has good days and bad days.  Because these films were done on an emergent basis I didn't have the time to collect the items that I needed to get more landmarks on the films. But I will reshoot these laterals with the landmarks....and repost on the main site. Thanks again for your time. 
--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories 
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Ω


Re: xrays show arthritis,,, how to trim to support the arthritis

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Trisha,

Sorry your girl is hurting. As Dolly is PPID, all of her discussions should remain on the main ECIR group.

As this came on recently, seasonal rise is certainly a possibility as an underlying factor. Current blood work would let you know if that is the case. As she's already on perg, you could also experiment with just raising her dose (with your vet's approval) without waiting for test results to come back.

Her trim could use a bit of tightening. There are some significant arthritic changes - low ringbone - evident on the rads and her toes could uses to come back a bit more - LF needs more than RF in that respect. Sinking present in both but hard to see extent on LF without the coronary band being marked. This amount of arthritic change generally takes some time to occur, so it's likely not a new event. However, it may have reached a point where it is impinging on the joint itself enough that any motion of the joint causes her some degree of discomfort. Keeping the hoof capsule as optimum as possible so that it doesn't impede her breakover will be the most helpful thing you can do regarding trim.

LF needs a tad more heel height as the HPA is a smidge broken back. The dorsal surface of the coffin bone has a scalloped profile, which is a bit odd. The entire CB appears to be a bit longer and narrower (if that makes sense) than the RF.

RF bony column alignment is good, toe a bit too long horizontally, sole thin.

Make sure her soles do not get touched at all behind the breakover point. Ditto for her frogs.

When having rads done, having the coronary band, dorsal wall and tip of frog marked will make it easier to determine what's where. Have a read here for some more tips:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1472

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


xrays show arthritis,,, how to trim to support the arthritis

Trisha DePietro
 

Hi Lavinia. I have added two lateral views to Dolly's photo album,  She has been very lame, stiff and slow moving these past few weeks...sometimes her stiffness is really obvious, other times it is extremely mild. I thought I might have been dealing with a seasonal rise issue- but her Xrays show a low ringbone. Is there anything from a trim perspective I can do to help support her? I have more xrays  being done on Sept 27th of both Hope and Dolly-so more to come if needed. Thanks.
--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories 
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Ω


Re: Nutrition and the hoof

Maria Duran
 

Thank you so much Lavinia,

This is all very helpful. I asked because I partially balanced the diet of two horses from the same owner and the trimmer is amazed with the changes he is seing in two months, he asked what was done. The onwer asked me if it was possible it was the diet, as it is the only change the horses has been on and I said I didn´t know and I would ask, because I knew the hoof wall should grow with more quality near the CB, but don´t know about the sole and frog, what have changed a lot.

I say partially balanced because we don´t have a hay analysis, so it was done by supplying the nutrients we know are low or defficient and removing most sugar sources as they were not needed.

Nice that you talk about the lumps and changes that must be left alone, I asked this in the conference, thank you.

About the sole depth, I was talking about the thickness itself, not ground clearance. I mean as if you dissect a hoof and measure the height of the sole.

Thanks a lot for your help :)


Re: Nutrition and the hoof

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Maria,

All new growth in the sole and frog are going to be inside, so what would be visible is an increase in the sole depth. The frog should gradually toughen up and become more substantial. It will likely shed parts that are currently ratty looking, exposing healthier material underneath. How fast the process goes is highly individual as there are so many factors determining this: where the individual starts from; genetics; diet; mechanics; any underlying disease processes that are contributing. You can start to see positive changes in weeks - some of which may be small or they may be eye-openingly obvious. Generally, the foot prioritizes fixing the most destabilized, thinnest portions first, rather than everything being fixed at the same rate. This may mean that parts of the sole get thicker faster than other parts, leading to a somewhat lumpy appearance. DO NOT remove the higher areas just because they are higher as that defeats the building process.

In a healthy foot, you are generally looking for 3/4" (1.87cm) calloused sole depth at the apex of the frog and 1" (2.5cm) at the deepest part of the collateral grooves toward the back of the foot. This can vary a bit but are safe assumptions to start off with. It also matters whether you are dealing with calloused sole or just newly grown sole, as calloused sole takes a lot longer to form than just adding the overall depth. Calloused sole is much more compacted, more dense material that requires time to form. It is much more protective as well. See here for an in-depth discussion:

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsesSole.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HeelHeight.html

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


Nutrition and the hoof

Maria Duran
 

Good evening,

I was wondering how soon can changes in the hoof be seen and which structures are first affected.

Hoof wall changes would be seen from the coronary band as it grows down at about 1 cm per month, but I was wondering if the frog corium and palmar corium also allow to see changes in the frog and sole as soon as 1 month since the nutritional changes were done.

Another question is what´s the healthy sole depth, 1 cm or 1.5 cm? and how much time does it take for the sole to be fully renovated.

Thank you very much.

María Durán.
Madrid, Spain.


Re: Sloughed bars

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

You're welcome, Vickie.

Another thought: if you aren't already doing this, powder the bottoms of his feet with an athlete's foot powder - like Gold Bond or the generic versions. That will help absorb moisture when in boots a lot, plus it will help control any greeblies that may try to set up housekeeping in that dark, moist environment. Some people have used Diatomaceous Earth the same way.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Sloughed bars

VickieH
 

Thanks for the input Lavinia!

I ordered the Numotizine. What a helpful poultice that will be! Can't wait to try it as I can not tell if he's draining from the bottom or if the wetness is from all the heat and humidity.

The day after I posted, he went back to an Obel 1b and almost 1a; just cruising about his stall and paddock. He was even turning pretty normally.

I'm pretty comfortable with the progress of his trim so far. In another couple of weeks, if his comfort and progress continues to be positive, I'll have my colleague come out and re-rad him. I think then I'll take some good photos that we can link with recent rads for your evaluation. :) 

Again, thank you for your helpful advise.

Yours!
Vickie
FL, Aug 2021


Re: Sloughed bars

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Vickie,

Sounds like you're doing everything correctly at the moment. If the bars flaked off, they were ready to be reduced in size. Just be sure to reevaluate your current heel height to be sure it doesn't also need a reduction. Your padding/booting strategy seems good.

That soft spot may be an abscess that will be draining shortly - you could try poulticing the sole with Numotizine, then wrapping it before putting the boot back on. The Numotizine is pink and changes color in areas where there is drainage. If you have any concerns that it's anything more, please have some rads done to rule out anything more ominous.

I would suggest not forcing walking until he is sound again but continue to allow him to self-exercise in his attached paddock. 

If you would like any input on the trim itself, we'll need a full set of hoof pbotos

Would you please sign your posts with your name, general location and year of joining. Unfortunately, signatures do not carry over from group to group.

Thanks for your help with this bit of admin.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


Sloughed bars

VickieH
 

Out with the old, in with the new? 

My gelding is about 12-14 weeks out from his toxic laminitis event; post surgical salmonella infection. I have been re-aligning his hoofs (17-18 degrees rotation with medial sinking) and he has been walking comfortably in cloud boots. Last week as I was cleaning his hoof, his bars on his right front hoof just easily flaked off. His sole at the tip of P3 was also much more sensitive and easily depressable. In the last 48 hrs he is more painful, going from an Obel 1b to 2, mostly due to his discomfort of that right front. 

So Ramey says that the P3 sole thinning is to be expected in horses who have rotated this much at this time in healing and to support this ( I dremmeled a crescent into the hoof pad to accommodate it as Ramey suggests). The sloughing of his bars was surprising to me. Any thoughts about how to keep on supporting his sole remodel and his bars? 

He continues to land flat-footed but should I not continue his PT walking? We have been walking for 15-20 minutes twice daily and he has a nice paddock attached to his stall. Should I limit his movement until his sole under P3 gets less "spooky"?

fyi, I am an equine veterinarian but am semi-retired so I rely on colleagues for expensive equipment use like rads and such. ;)


Re: Problem with wearing of Easy Boot Clouds

Deb Walker
 

Thank you all. You are a wealth of information. Much appreciation. I'm going to try a place in Rockford (which is nearby) to see if they can do it. I'll take my old ones in first, and that will give me some back-ups, and then do my newest ones. Unfortunately I have already thrown some of the worst old ones away, figuring I was out of luck. I'll let you know how it goes.
--
Deb and Scotty I/R & PPID
Northwest Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619


Re: Problem with wearing of Easy Boot Clouds

riggslippert@...
 

I recently contacted EasyCare about this very issue and this was their response:

Hi Aunna,

 

Thank you for contacting EasyCare.

 

We don’t sell any kind of Velcro replacement parts, but we do have customers that will buy Velcro strips at craft supply stores and re-sew it themselves. Or some customers take their boots to local tailors or tack shops to get them re-sewn.

My Cloud boots were also quite new (less than a year old).

Aunna, Island County, Washington

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