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Re: [EquineCushings] Barefootin' - a little rant

Abby Nemec
 

mmmeer@... wrote:
Just curious, isn't it the same with Horse shoeing schools?
Yes it is - but there is a long, time-honored tradition of apprenticeship in the shoeing business. Somehow it seems many people think that shoeing is really hard and takes a lot of training, but "the barefoot trim" is simply a matter of connecting the dots and voila!

I believe there
are some courses as short as 6 weeks or 3 months? Is this correct? Can't they, after 3 months, come out of school and start their practice, and begin nailing on shoes?
And they (we) can take money for shoeing and trimming in the US with not a day's worth of training. Actually, I am not a certified farrier, nor did I graduate from a shoeing school. I had private training, and then spent a LONG time working on the horses in a riding program that I was running. The horses there taught me an awful lot - and I'm grateful to them for that (and sorry for what I put them through too).

-A



--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


Re: Barefootin' - a little rant

Eclectk1@...
 

Hi Monica,
 
For whatever my 2 cents and way too many years of experience is worth -- no, I don't believe that "education on barefoot trimming and the wild horse model" is at all necessary to get excellent results.  Frankly, ever since I was a kid and first involved in horses (30+ years ago, YIKES!), virtually all truely GOOD farriers knew how to do excellent trims that with a few relatively minor exceptions were pretty much identical to the current "barefoot" model -- and they all advocated only using shoes when it was really necessary because of the particular horse's foot and/or if the horse was being used for certain types of use that really needed shoes for protection.  Even then, most good farriers would strongly encourage owners to consider leaving the horse barefoot for at least a few trim cycles during the winter when the horse was either laid off or in very light work at best.  As a result, I've always been pretty amazed at the claims by many in the recent "barefoot" movement.  Not to mention that while the "wild horse" model IS interesting and useful, one HAS to consider that those horses are in a very distinct climate, terrain, and diet that many many of our horses aren't -- which means that its not necessarily applicable in all parts of the country or on all types of feet.  Good model, but its just a model and isn't directly applicable to all.  (I suspect THAT statement is likely to generate a few flames if said in the wrong place!!  ).   
 
I mean, think of this for a minute -- a good trim is the basis of ANY good shoeing job.  Without a good trim, you don't have a good shoeing job either.  About the only difference between a good trim that stays a trim only, and a good shoeing job, in terms of actually shaping the foot, is how the foot is or isn't finished off -- in other words, for shoeing, you don't roll the edges, etc. where for a trim, you do in order to help minimize any chipping of the external wall for a bit, and/or ease breakover or that sort of thing.  But the basics are all there, and HAVE BEEN, for many many decades if not centuries.  WAY before the current "barefoot, wild horse" movement was ever started.  You can even find duplicates of some very old shoeing articles on the net if you do a bit of searching.
 
So, there are a lot of different ways to get to being an excellent farrier, but as Abby has noted, you quite likely don't have that if the person hasn't worked on feet, MANY different feet, over a good period of time -- and typically working FOR someone who is already an excellent farrier and who is also decent at passing their knowledge on to those working for them.  That means the person learning can see how feet grow, change, handle diffferent climates and moisture levels, become diseased or damaged, etc. AND how their trimming interacts with all of those various situations, either improving the foot or worsening it.  That process takes TIME.  Occassionally you can run into that very rare type who just has a really good eye and picks up on things vastly quicker than most people do -- but they're few and far between, and then you just pray that they don't make their inevitable goofs on your horse..... or that at least those goofs turn out to be small ones!   I've also found that you can get two farriers who are really pretty much as good as each other, and one can do every bit as well finishing off 3 horses for every 1 the other does!!  Speed, or slowness, neither one necessarily means the farrier is particularly bad or good. 
 
Robin
(list owner)

> >
> > The guy I found to work on her feet last year was a hoof
> > practitioner with AANHCP for less than a year,
>

--- In ECHoof@..., Abby Bloxsom wrote:
>
> *****************
> > had shod horses for
> > several years. 
> *****************
>
> This is the important part ... >

An even more important part.... Although he had been shoeing horses
for years, it still took education on barefoot trimming and the wild
horse model to get the results. Is that what I am reading?

Monica
 




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Re: Barefootin' - a little rant

Jackie <stc4qh@...>
 

Dolly, from watching my farrier work on my horses it doesn't look like easy money to me, especially working on Gacy's feet.  Maybe after getting the hooves to the desired trim, it's not hard work, I don't know yet.  My original farrier would come and work on my 3 horses and be gone in a shorter time period it takes my hoof trimmer to work on one.  My horses use to get what was called a pasture trim, trimming the toes and some rasping and that was it.  I'm definitely getting my money's worth now, IMO.
Jackie and Gacy

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Jackie


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Re: Barefootin' - a little rant

Kelly
 

Abby,
I totally agree about making sure that they have the experience to
trim our horses feet. This is of course what would be best. But, the
problem is ..... a lot of us live in rural areas and most of the time
there just is not anybody to pick from that has expertise or enough
training in helping foundered horses. They all say they have the
experience , but when it really comes down to helping , rather then
making a bad situation worse - the damage is already done. You can't
put hoof back on once it is off!
So, unless we are in an area that has a high population of horse
owners with quality trimmers/farriers we are out of luck. We either
have to do them ourselves or find someone with less experience. We
really do not have many options unless we spend a fortune to get a
qualified trimmer to travel in the area.
Kelly


Re: Barefootin' - a little rant

Abby Nemec
 

Jackie wrote:
The guy I found to work on her feet last year was a hoof practitioner with AANHCP for less than a year,

*****************
had shod horses for several years.
*****************

This is the important part ... it's the following of individual feet over a long period of time that matters. There is no "trim method" that is appropriate for every situation, no matter what XYZ & Associates will tell you. What a good practitioner does is trim a foot to certain external (or xray) markers, and then watch how it responds. The response is what tells you what's going on inside the foot. That's also why you can't just make blanket trim recommendations based on pictures.

-A



--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


Re: Barefootin' - a little rant

Jackie <stc4qh@...>
 

Abby, first I want to say that I always read your posts mainly because I know you are a farrier and I have a horse, Gacy, that foundered and is IR.  The guy I found to work on her feet last year was a hoof practitioner with AANHCP for less than a year, had shod horses for several years.  He has done a marvelous job of rehabbing her feet, she was a severe case.  There are some that have it and some that don't, this is very true.
Jackie and Gacy

Abby Bloxsom wrote:
.




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Re: Barefootin' - a little rant

prattchn@...
 

I never said it is easy work for a good farrier. I think a good farrier is worth every penny they get. I know of some that do a terrible job, but because they can set there own hours  they think it's a easy job. I seen a lot of them. Good ones are sometimes hard to find. Dolly and Prissy  




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Re: Barefootin' - a little rant

prattchn@...
 

You are 100% right, but there are a lot of them out there, at least here in AZ. We have a lot of  people do it once and figure it not a bad way to make money. Dolly 




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Barefootin' - a little rant

Abby Nemec
 

Just putting together some of these comments on horses' feet, and I wanted to say something important about the idea of transitioning horses out of shoes and into bare feet. Yes I AM a farrier. I shoe horses, plenty of them, but 90% of the horses in my practice are barefoot. I really believe that in most cases it's better and easier in the long run for horses to be barefoot - but I also recognize that it's not always practical for that to happen. In any case, I have collected a fair amount of experience watching these feet evolve over the last few years (and I've made my share of mistakes).

Here's what worries me. There are people coming out of barefoot training programs by the dozens every week. I saw a website the other day of a young man who a year ago was trimming on his own in New England with less than a year's practice out of training. He's now in another state on the other side of the country, and advertising to be a barefoot practitioner/instructor. Certified, I do believe.

I attended a trade show last summer where one of the clinicians had a year of experience trimming on her own. She was certified too. I know from doing it myself that it takes time to develop a practice. How many horses did she have in her practice after only one year? How long had she been trimming them? Hmmmm.

This does NOT constitute experience. I don't care how good the training programs are. ***Even barefoot trimming practitioners need to apprentice!*** It takes many months, and preferably years, of watching feet change, develop, and evolve under your own hand to really truly learn this art. I'm not saying that the trimming programs are not valuable - they are, absolutely. But PLEASE, before you hire a practitioner, find out how long they've been practicing. Find out how many foundered feet they have brought around - FULLY - through at least one, and preferably two growth cycles.

Transitioning a rotated foot is not a job for a novice. If they don't have a good solid file of cases under their belt, get someone who does - or hire someone who does to follow the case as a consult. The difference between "doing okay" and an emergency call to the vet can be no more than a couple of days of too much exercise on poorly trimmed feet. I would rather see a horse in properly applied heart bar shoes any day than barefoot, with their coffin bones crashing through the bottoms of their feet. Better safe than sorry.

Down off my soapbox.

-Abby


--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


xrays

whitehorsebullet
 

John,
I posted the most recent xrays of Bullet's feet and wondered if you
had a chance to look at them. I repsonded to your post on the EC site
as well.
Thanks,
Ann-Marie


Re: P3 rotation can be seen on hoof wall without radiographs???

aspenowens <SnipeyHO@...>
 

--- In ECHoof@..., "r19338" <jprecup@...> wrote:

I've had two farriers tell me that P3 rotation will show up on the
hoof wall as a horizontal line in a very short period of time after a
laminitis attack. Also, if there is no line, then you don't need
radiographs since no rotation has occurred. Ditto if there is no
reaction to hoof testers on toe or heel.
Jo Ann
Jo Ann,
I do not necessarily agree with the farriers you have talked to.
Horizontal hoof wall lines can show up for a variety of reasons:
laminitis and nutritional changes being two of the most common. It
does not mean that rotation has or has not occured. Looking at the
foot externally you are better off to look at the new growth coming in
from the coronary band. In horses that have "rotated" you will often
see a new "angle" growing in right up by the coronary band. It will be
very steep just below the coronary band and then suddenly the foot will
look like the toe is running forward. As trimmers we look at this to
determine some of what is going on inside of the hoof and adjust
trimming from there but ultimately having a good set of radiographs
gives you a whole lot more information. P3 rotation is only part of
the picture.....distal displacement also needs to be assessed (sinkage)
and in my opinion it is difficult to judge that just by looking at the
foot only. Hope this helps.
Suzanne Owens, LVT


Re: Riding Bullet

Eclectk1@...
 

Hi John and Ann-Marie,
 
First, GREAT to see folks active here since we've just opened this branch of EquineCushings and Insulin Resistance!!
 
I just wanted to note that this discussion is the perfect sort to actually have on the main list rather than here -- that way others who like to help look at hoof photos or x-rays, and those who want to learn by listenting in can participate.  Not to mention that discussions there can often wind up helping in terms of trying to avoid any further exacerbations or attacks too. 
 
I haven't checked to see exactly what the full discussion is either here or on the main list, or your membership status, but hope neither of you would mind moving the discussion to the EC list?  Please, let us know if you don't want to for whatever reason tho, ok?  Of course it would help if you'd also be willing to explain why, although there isn't any requirement to do so.  We'll just be trying to sort out what is usually discussed here, vs. on the main list and the more input from folks, the better. 
 
To email your posts to the main list, its:  EquineCushings@...
 
Thanks!!
Robin
(list owner)




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Re: Riding Bullet

whitehorsebullet
 

--- In ECHoof@..., "John Stewart" <john_the_vet@...>
wrote:

Ann-Marie,

Sorry for the delay in replying - computer problems.

Thank you for posting the photos and first radiographs. It would
be
interesting to see the most recent ones.
You have done pretty well with the photos but the lateralones
really
are better if taken with the camera on the ground.

Further questions
How old is he? 22 yrs
How long ago since he had his bout of laminitis? hard to pinpoint,
because it wasn't a classic case, but i beleive around april 2006
Does he often stand with the right foot further back than the left
foot? i think that was just coincidence, but i will pay closer
attention
Is the positioning of the feet in the photos unusual?

The good thing is that there looks to be even new growth but there
has
been quite a lot of damage done and thus only the top part is
supporting the front of the bone at the moment.
No exercise at the moment.
what does that mean? he does walk around on 8 acres daily to
graze...and sometimes will run and buck on his own..
I will give fuller response when I have
the other details.
I will take better pictures tomorrow when i have my daughter here
to help me, and i will get the new radiographs next week...thanks so
much for your input!
Cheers

John



--- In ECHoof@..., "whitehorsebullet"
<whitehorsebullet@> wrote:

This is directed to John the vet...have you had a chance to look
at
the photos i posted? i know i haven't put up his new xrays, but
the
vet and farrier both thought they looked great and agreed to
take
the
pads off. I would very much like to start light riding again
asap
before he is totally out of shape and loses all his muscle mass.
thanks, Ann-Marie


Re: Riding Bullet

John Stewart
 

Ann-Marie,

Sorry for the delay in replying - computer problems.

Thank you for posting the photos and first radiographs. It would be
interesting to see the most recent ones.
You have done pretty well with the photos but the lateralones really
are better if taken with the camera on the ground.

Further questions
How old is he?
How long ago since he had his bout of laminitis?
Does he often stand with the right foot further back than the left
foot? Is the positioning of the feet in the photos unusual?

The good thing is that there looks to be even new growth but there has
been quite a lot of damage done and thus only the top part is
supporting the front of the bone at the moment.
No exercise at the moment. I will give fuller response when I have
the other details.

Cheers

John



--- In ECHoof@..., "whitehorsebullet"
<whitehorsebullet@...> wrote:

This is directed to John the vet...have you had a chance to look at
the photos i posted? i know i haven't put up his new xrays, but the
vet and farrier both thought they looked great and agreed to take
the
pads off. I would very much like to start light riding again asap
before he is totally out of shape and loses all his muscle mass.
thanks, Ann-Marie


Ann-Marie/Bullet

goddess03259 <threecatfarm@...>
 

Hi Ann-Marie

Just wanted you to know that I moved your old rads into your Bullet file along with your
pics.
How long ago were these taken?

I'm still trying to work out how to make this as easy as possible so hang in their with me.
We'd like you all to make a folder for you and yoru horse where all the rads and hoof pics
would be kept. The other general folders are for things that might be good educational
examples.

Also, if you haven't taken a look at the "How to get good Photos" folder, I might suggest
you do so for your next photo session. The toe, side (lateral) and heel shots should have
the camera right on the floor. Hopefully you have swept away any debris that might cause
the camera to go out of focus. You want to picture the lense of the camera pointing at the
middle of the toe, fetlock or heel. That way the gurus can really see imbalances. There are
photos examples in the afore mentioned file! With a little practice you can get REALLY
good at this. :-)

Once you have the new rads up, we can move this conversation over to the main list. It
will help you get more ideas and you will also help other folks who mare learning about
similar issues.

Nancy C and Beau and Gabe in NH


Re: P3 rotation can be seen on hoof wall without radiographs???

goddess03259 <threecatfarm@...>
 

Hi Jo Ann

Certainly external rings are an indication that someting is going on inside the foot. Not
sure by what they meant as a short time, but I would not be willing to accept a founder
diagnosis or a trimming protocol on the lack of founder rings or the lack of reaction to
hoof testers. If you know you have had or suspect laminitis, then I think it is prudent to
get xrays. The outside of the hoof can tell the pros many things but there are often times
when those external signs could be very misleading.

If you are in the mood to look at lots of dissected feet to see just how amazingly adaptable
the internal stucture of the foot are, go to http://www.horsescience.com/

There are a number of cases here where one could make a huge mistake if going about
trimming by judging only the external structure.

Nancy C and Beau and Gabe in NH

I've had two farriers tell me that P3 rotation will show up on the
hoof wall as a horizontal line in a very short period of time after a
laminitis attack. Also, if there is no line, then you don't need
radiographs since no rotation has occurred. Ditto if there is no
reaction to hoof testers on toe or heel.

Is this true?
thank,
Jo Ann


P3 rotation can be seen on hoof wall without radiographs???

r19338
 

Laminitis question:

I've had two farriers tell me that P3 rotation will show up on the
hoof wall as a horizontal line in a very short period of time after a
laminitis attack. Also, if there is no line, then you don't need
radiographs since no rotation has occurred. Ditto if there is no
reaction to hoof testers on toe or heel.

Is this true?
thank,
Jo Ann


Riding Bullet

whitehorsebullet
 

This is directed to John the vet...have you had a chance to look at
the photos i posted? i know i haven't put up his new xrays, but the
vet and farrier both thought they looked great and agreed to take the
pads off. I would very much like to start light riding again asap
before he is totally out of shape and loses all his muscle mass.
thanks, Ann-Marie


Re: Aletheia and new shoes

prattchn@...
 

I forgot to give you the phone no. 877-357-7187 or 530-672-9409 E3Live FOR HORSES




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Re: hmmm....

whitehorsebullet
 

thanks! I posted some more pictures and if they aren't good enough,
which they may not be , let me know and I can probably do better
ones. I have his old radiographs in the examples of radiographs
section and I plan to get his current ones up soon. thanks for the
help.


--- In ECHoof@..., "goddess03259" <threecatfarm@...> wrote:

Ann Marie -

I moved them to Bullet's file

Nancy C
--- In ECHoof@..., "whitehorsebullet"
<whitehorsebullet@> wrote:

My photo's showed up as Alethia...and I am Ann-Marie and my horse
is
Bullet.....I have more to add as well

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