Eleanor or Robin

I failed to click the new album rather than add to old. I have added
things to Radiographs by mistake. Sorry - please can you remove for
me.

John

My horse is recovering from laminitis/founder. He is no longer
rotated and his "new" hoof is about 1/4 new . He is showing no signs
of lameness and hasn't for a couple of months. My farrier says to
wait basically till he has a whole new hoof. and yes, he is still on
front shoes. I plan on switching to a barefoot trimmer, but it is
proving to be harder to find one locally than i thought. I would love
to start doing some light riding on him, but of course i don't want to
jeapardize his health. Thanks,
Ann-Marie and Bullet

Hi Ann-Marie,

There are too many "it depends" to give a straight answer to this. Some of the things it depends on are;
How severe was the laminitis episode?
Was it the first time or has he had it before?
Do you think you know what set it off?
Was there rotation of the pedal bone and, if so, was the rotation relative to the hoof capsule, the line of the pastern or to the ground?
If IR or Cushing's were involved in setting the laminitis off, have you sorted the diet or giving pergolide?
What is the angle of the trim of the hoof; high heel or low heel?
Are they ordinary shoes, or is there support to the frog or the back of the foot?
Has the breakover of the shoe been brought back or is it just a normal shoe positioned normally on the foot?

If trimmed and shod so that the levering forces are not minimised, then the longer you will have to wait to exercise him safely.
Can you post photographs of Bullet's feet?
(photos taken from ground level -camera on the ground, from in front of the foot, directly from the side and one of the sole as well)
Cheers

John

--- In ECHoof@..., "John Stewart" <john_the_vet@...>
wrote:

Hi Ann-Marie,

There are too many "it depends" to give a straight answer to

this. Some of

the things it depends on are;
How severe was the laminitis episode? moderate in one hoof/slight

in other

Was it the first time or has he had it before?first time
Do you think you know what set it off? i think a twisted shoe

possibly or maybe Cushings

Was there rotation of the pedal bone and, if so, was the rotation

relative

to the hoof capsule, the line of the pastern or to the ground?

that i am not sure of. i will get you a picture of his radiographs
(old and new)

If IR or Cushing's were involved in setting the laminitis off,

have you

sorted the diet or giving pergolide? he is on 1 mg pergolide
What is the angle of the trim of the hoof; high heel or low heel?

i will post pictures soon

Are they ordinary shoes, or is there support to the frog or the

back of the

foot? there was support with a regular shoe until this last

shoeing when farrier didn't think he needed it anymore

Has the breakover of the shoe been brought back or is it just a

normal shoe

positioned normally on the foot? don't know

If trimmed and shod so that the levering forces are not minimised,

then the

longer you will have to wait to exercise him safely.
Can you post photographs of Bullet's feet? i will hopefully take

some tomorrow and post them.

(photos taken from ground level -camera on the ground, from in

front of the

foot, directly from the side and one of the sole as well)
Cheers

John

My horse is recovering from laminitis/founder. He is no longer
rotated and his "new" hoof is about 1/4 new . He is showing no

signs

of lameness and hasn't for a couple of months. My farrier says

to

wait basically till he has a whole new hoof. and yes, he is

still on

front shoes. I would love
to start doing some light riding on him, but of course i don't

want to

jeapardize his health. Thanks,
Ann-Marie and Bullet

I took Aletheia last Friday to a Vet (of a good horsey friend of
mine) in Missouri who has consulted with me and my Farrier
telephonically for the past few months - very experienced and
succussful with founder.
She got new shoes yesterady - an eggbar of sorts set way back with
no pressure on the toe he tells me at all.... and set up with the
equine digital support pink stuff. He initially told my friend we
shall see how she does in 48 hours (she was there about the time
they finished). The vet called last night and said she was moving
substanially better - out about 4 hours and was talking and eating
like a pig...... His wife called this morning and said she is
better yet.
The bad news is he says (and I think I have known this for a long
time) that the long term prognosis is not good due the bone loss
particularily on the left - and that that is why I can't keep her
comfy for long periods of time - but to hang in there - lets see
what we can do and then day by day and down the road a bit - judge
quality of life - but for right now we are having GOOD DAYS.

I will post pics when I can get some of how he has her shoed.

Sherri and Leth

Hi Sherri and Ann Marie and list members

Just wanted to point you to the file "How to get good Hoof Photos" in the files section at the
ECHoof home page. It's a quick and easy guide to getting photos that will maximize input
from the group.

Let me know if you have problems viewing!

Thanks

Nancy C and Beau and Gabe in NH

My photo's showed up as Alethia...and I am Ann-Marie and my horse is
Bullet.....I have more to add as well

Ann Marie -

I moved them to Bullet's file

Nancy C

Sherri Soper wrote:

The bad news is he says (and I think I have known this for a long
time) that the long term prognosis is not good due the bone loss
particularily on the left -

Sherri - just a heads up (will cover this in more depth when we get your thread moved back over to the main site) that bone loss is not necessarily the kiss of death. She may never be ridable again, but you may be able to keep her quite comfortable on her damaged feet once you find a solution that works (which it sounds like you might have done).

Hang tightly,
-Abby


--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com

thanks! I posted some more pictures and if they aren't good enough,
which they may not be , let me know and I can probably do better
ones. I have his old radiographs in the examples of radiographs
section and I plan to get his current ones up soon. thanks for the
help.


--- In ECHoof@..., "goddess03259" <threecatfarm@...> wrote:

Ann Marie -

I moved them to Bullet's file

Nancy C
--- In ECHoof@..., "whitehorsebullet"

<whitehorsebullet@> wrote:

My photo's showed up as Alethia...and I am Ann-Marie and my horse

is

Bullet.....I have more to add as well

I forgot to give you the phone no. 877-357-7187 or 530-672-9409 E3Live FOR HORSES

---

AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

This is directed to John the vet...have you had a chance to look at
the photos i posted? i know i haven't put up his new xrays, but the
vet and farrier both thought they looked great and agreed to take the
pads off. I would very much like to start light riding again asap
before he is totally out of shape and loses all his muscle mass.
thanks, Ann-Marie

Laminitis question:

I've had two farriers tell me that P3 rotation will show up on the
hoof wall as a horizontal line in a very short period of time after a
laminitis attack. Also, if there is no line, then you don't need
radiographs since no rotation has occurred. Ditto if there is no
reaction to hoof testers on toe or heel.

Is this true?
thank,
Jo Ann

Hi Jo Ann

Certainly external rings are an indication that someting is going on inside the foot. Not
sure by what they meant as a short time, but I would not be willing to accept a founder
diagnosis or a trimming protocol on the lack of founder rings or the lack of reaction to
hoof testers. If you know you have had or suspect laminitis, then I think it is prudent to
get xrays. The outside of the hoof can tell the pros many things but there are often times
when those external signs could be very misleading.

If you are in the mood to look at lots of dissected feet to see just how amazingly adaptable
the internal stucture of the foot are, go to http://www.horsescience.com/

There are a number of cases here where one could make a huge mistake if going about
trimming by judging only the external structure.

Nancy C and Beau and Gabe in NH

Hi Ann-Marie

Just wanted you to know that I moved your old rads into your Bullet file along with your
pics.
How long ago were these taken?

I'm still trying to work out how to make this as easy as possible so hang in their with me.
We'd like you all to make a folder for you and yoru horse where all the rads and hoof pics
would be kept. The other general folders are for things that might be good educational
examples.

Also, if you haven't taken a look at the "How to get good Photos" folder, I might suggest
you do so for your next photo session. The toe, side (lateral) and heel shots should have
the camera right on the floor. Hopefully you have swept away any debris that might cause
the camera to go out of focus. You want to picture the lense of the camera pointing at the
middle of the toe, fetlock or heel. That way the gurus can really see imbalances. There are
photos examples in the afore mentioned file! With a little practice you can get REALLY
good at this. :-)

Once you have the new rads up, we can move this conversation over to the main list. It
will help you get more ideas and you will also help other folks who mare learning about
similar issues.

Nancy C and Beau and Gabe in NH

Ann-Marie,

Sorry for the delay in replying - computer problems.

Thank you for posting the photos and first radiographs. It would be
interesting to see the most recent ones.
You have done pretty well with the photos but the lateralones really
are better if taken with the camera on the ground.

Further questions
How old is he?
How long ago since he had his bout of laminitis?
Does he often stand with the right foot further back than the left
foot? Is the positioning of the feet in the photos unusual?

The good thing is that there looks to be even new growth but there has
been quite a lot of damage done and thus only the top part is
supporting the front of the bone at the moment.
No exercise at the moment. I will give fuller response when I have
the other details.

Cheers

John



--- In ECHoof@..., "whitehorsebullet"
<whitehorsebullet@...> wrote:

This is directed to John the vet...have you had a chance to look at
the photos i posted? i know i haven't put up his new xrays, but the
vet and farrier both thought they looked great and agreed to take

the

pads off. I would very much like to start light riding again asap
before he is totally out of shape and loses all his muscle mass.
thanks, Ann-Marie

--- In ECHoof@..., "John Stewart" <john_the_vet@...>
wrote:

Ann-Marie,

Sorry for the delay in replying - computer problems.

Thank you for posting the photos and first radiographs. It would

be

interesting to see the most recent ones.
You have done pretty well with the photos but the lateralones

really

are better if taken with the camera on the ground.

Further questions
How old is he? 22 yrs
How long ago since he had his bout of laminitis? hard to pinpoint,

because it wasn't a classic case, but i beleive around april 2006

Does he often stand with the right foot further back than the left
foot? i think that was just coincidence, but i will pay closer

attention
Is the positioning of the feet in the photos unusual?

The good thing is that there looks to be even new growth but there

has

been quite a lot of damage done and thus only the top part is
supporting the front of the bone at the moment.
No exercise at the moment.

what does that mean? he does walk around on 8 acres daily to
graze...and sometimes will run and buck on his own..
I will give fuller response when I have

the other details.
I will take better pictures tomorrow when i have my daughter here

to help me, and i will get the new radiographs next week...thanks so
much for your input!

Cheers

John



--- In ECHoof@..., "whitehorsebullet"
<whitehorsebullet@> wrote:

This is directed to John the vet...have you had a chance to look

at

the photos i posted? i know i haven't put up his new xrays, but

the

vet and farrier both thought they looked great and agreed to

take

the

pads off. I would very much like to start light riding again

asap

before he is totally out of shape and loses all his muscle mass.
thanks, Ann-Marie

Hi John and Ann-Marie,

 

First, GREAT to see folks active here since we've just opened this branch of EquineCushings and Insulin Resistance!!

 

I just wanted to note that this discussion is the perfect sort to actually have on the main list rather than here -- that way others who like to help look at hoof photos or x-rays, and those who want to learn by listenting in can participate.  Not to mention that discussions there can often wind up helping in terms of trying to avoid any further exacerbations or attacks too. 

 

I haven't checked to see exactly what the full discussion is either here or on the main list, or your membership status, but hope neither of you would mind moving the discussion to the EC list?  Please, let us know if you don't want to for whatever reason tho, ok?  Of course it would help if you'd also be willing to explain why, although there isn't any requirement to do so.  We'll just be trying to sort out what is usually discussed here, vs. on the main list and the more input from folks, the better. 

 

To email your posts to the main list, its:  EquineCushings@...

 

Thanks!!

Robin

(list owner)

--- In ECHoof@..., "r19338" <jprecup@...> wrote:

I've had two farriers tell me that P3 rotation will show up on the
hoof wall as a horizontal line in a very short period of time after a
laminitis attack. Also, if there is no line, then you don't need
radiographs since no rotation has occurred. Ditto if there is no
reaction to hoof testers on toe or heel.
Jo Ann

Jo Ann,
I do not necessarily agree with the farriers you have talked to.
Horizontal hoof wall lines can show up for a variety of reasons:
laminitis and nutritional changes being two of the most common. It
does not mean that rotation has or has not occured. Looking at the
foot externally you are better off to look at the new growth coming in
from the coronary band. In horses that have "rotated" you will often
see a new "angle" growing in right up by the coronary band. It will be
very steep just below the coronary band and then suddenly the foot will
look like the toe is running forward. As trimmers we look at this to
determine some of what is going on inside of the hoof and adjust
trimming from there but ultimately having a good set of radiographs
gives you a whole lot more information. P3 rotation is only part of
the picture.....distal displacement also needs to be assessed (sinkage)
and in my opinion it is difficult to judge that just by looking at the
foot only. Hope this helps.
Suzanne Owens, LVT