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Re: Crooked hoof -now sore - trim advice please

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

That she feels better today, right after that little hole appeared with the drainage, adds another layer of suspicion for it being a draining abscess.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Crooked hoof -now sore - trim advice please

Susan
 

I uploaded a picture to Ella's photo album.  Could just be a coincident that she got a cut on the same day. There is no wound, swelling or tenderness anywhere else in the limb that I can find. She seems to be feeling just fine. Fine enough to make a fuss about soaking her hoof. I wrapped her hoof. It was easier than fighting with her and a bucket of water.
--
Susan in BC 2020
Copper and Ella's Case Histories
Ella's Photos


Re: Crooked hoof -now sore - trim advice please

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Susan,

Sudden lameness on only one foot is the classic presentation for an abscess if there is no injury to that foot/leg - swelling, wound, puncture, tenderness higher up the limb.

An abscess will break out thru the easiest path possible. Where that is depends on the location of the abscess. They can drain in one, quick event or take a prolonged time, sometimes in a drain/stop/drain again scenario. An abscess can be one pocket or more than one, which will take longer to resolve. Sometimes they start to drain, which alleviates the pain, then seal up before draining completely.

Soak the foot in the hottest water the horse will tolerate + epsom salts, a couple of times per day. You can also make a wrap with wet cotton soaked in epsom slats, then cover it in plastic to keep it moist. Cover the whole thing in a boot or a diaper with duct tape/vet wrap to keep it in place. The idea is to keep the foot soft to provide an easier path for the material to get out.

Movement is also helpful as that provides pressure to squeeze out the trapped material - not forced movement, just allow the horse to move on its own.

Unless she's not eating and drinking normally, resist any temptation to use NSAIDs as that will only slow down the entire process and slow down the resolutipon.

Do you have a picture of it the hole?

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Crooked hoof -now sore - trim advice please

Susan
 

Ella was moving better and looked sound until yesterday, when she came up lame again. In the same hoof - right front. Yesterday morning she was barely putting any weight on it. I put her in hoof boots and packed them with a poultice. She moved comfortably in the boots, but when I took them off in the evening she seemed  more sore. This morning she's moving a bit better with out boots on, but not completely sound.

This morning she has a small spot of blood (and a tiny hole) between her ankle and coronet band at the back of her leg - above the frog. The blood is in that little indentation above the top of the hoof - not at the hairline. I've never seen a abscess break out that far up. There is no pus. Is it possible for abscesses to come out there? If in fact that is where an abscess is draining, I imagine it will be difficult to get it to drain completely since it's above her hoof. Should I put a poultice on her ankle?

If it was an abscess causing the lameness a month ago, is it possible that the same abscess can get better and then come back again? I didn't notice anything rupture last month and can't find a hole, she just slowly seemed to get sound. I assumed it was something with the trim that was making her sore. Lastly - could the way  she's trimmed be causing abscesses due to a mechanical reason (ie the way she's landing)?

Thanks,
--
Susan in BC 2020
Copper and Ella's Case Histories
Ella's Photos


Re: Good Source for Hoof Pads

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Thanks for the link, Bonnie.

Happy Hoof pads is a good resource.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Good Source for Hoof Pads

 

Just wanted to post the web site for a vendor that sells a large assortment of hoof pad material. I have purchased from her in the past and found that she has a bigger variety of pads then any other seller IMO.

https://happyhoofpads.com/

She is also very helpful to talk with. You can buy just one specific type of pad or entire kits. 
--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case HistoryPhoto Album

 


Re: Shakira: Hoof Pics and XRays

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Larissa,

Good on you for working on the handling aspect of this. Lots of work in the short term but such a huge payoff in the end.

From the photos, the toes are still much too long horizontally, so if you can do anything about that aspect it would be a good place to start. Heels are underrun, walls have flaring that will need to be addressed as well.

Radiographs show that the front coffin bones have remodeled with ski tips on both. All coffin bones are ground parallel, although the LF may actually have a negative plane coffin bone angle . RF appears to have some ringbone that may be impacting the joint. That could be the reason you have more trouble lifting the LF - her RF may actually be the more painful one.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Ongoing inflammation in feet despite best efforts

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Frustrating for sure, Sandra.

Have you had any nerve blocks done to see if the problems are actually her feet? Sometimes we get so focused on that aspect that other possibilities get lost in those shadows.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Monty's trim

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

You're welcome.

Use whatever boots fit him well and he is comfortable in. That will change over time, as will the pads that he finds most helpful. You want pads that will conform to all the nooks and crannies on the bottom of the feet so that all the weight bearing structures are engaged - not just the walls. This will distribute weight bearing across the entire bottom of the foot, engaging all the parts in cycles of pressure-and-release as the foot moves.

Isoxsuprine is poorly absorbed by horses when administered orally so is fairly useless. Jiaogulan actually works to increase nitric oxide production, so it increases circulation.For best results - feed on an empty stomach, twice daily. Dose is to effect. See the file on the main group:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/filessearch?q=jiaogulan

Sure, I can help you with your other boy as well. Just send me a PM.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Shakira: Hoof Pics and XRays

larissa.supnik@...
 

Thanks all,

I had the vet and farrier out at the beginning of June to tranquilize, trim and x-ray.  Apologies that it took me a while to post them and that I didn't think to take them the same weekend.  The x-rays were taken a month ago.  The photos were taken last week.  The x-rays were taken after 80% of the trim - he went back in and touched up her back toes based on what the x-ray showed.

Here they are as a google photo album: https://photos.app.goo.gl/4qxHmbvpCaMhn54z7

And here they are as a zip if that is preferable for anyone: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UrnVdf9rRIbYpxsLCg8cc-2aCUrBhWPs/view?usp=sharing

My hope is to do a touch up trim with help soon to get her a another week or two on this trim while some local horse friends and I continue to work on her ground manners so a professional can get her a real trim without tranqs ideally.  (But if we have to do another with tranqs, that's what we'll do - health comes first).  She is now to the point where she will let me work with a foot with minimal fuss - she'll let me clean all her feet, rinse them with a squirt bottle, or bang on her feet with hoof pick or rasp for the most part.  She will also put her front feet in a hoof stand cradle (sole up), but doesn't yet cooperate with the hoof stand where she stretches her foot forward (and her sole rests on the stand).  For a stranger, she will now allow them to clean three of her feet with minimal fuss, but is protective of her front left.  (It isn't terribly surprising that her left front would be the last holdout.  Her previous situation was sufficiently restrictive that she physically couldn't bend to the left in February, so she's always protective of her left with strangers, and her left feet are more painful than her right).

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance!
Larissa


Re: cracking hooves

Griffin Keller
 

Good to know! ok thanks :)
I did post some pics in that google album i grabbed last night.  After I put more field paste in the old nail holes and cracks that are still there.

--
Griffin 

Jan 2018, Charlottesville, VA

Prophecy (IR) Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Griffin%20and%20Prophecy

Prophecy (IR) Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=17115

Sleek N Wow (non IR) Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/Hoof/album?id=65070 


Re: Monty's trim

Collaeyn Hazen
 

Hi Lavinia,
Thank you Thank you Thank you!  This is great to see visually what his feet *should* look like end-state,  and what is OK to remove.  I've lost so much riding/fun time with Monty with his feet issues, hopefully we can move past that with correct trimming.

I have Easyboot clouds for him to go into after today's trim, for extra support.

  1. Question for you - Up until now Monty has been in scoot boots, and since he had soreness in June, he has had Equine Fusion pads in them.  The Scoot boot tread has a lot of give under the center of the foot...I'm not sure if having more support around the perimeter of the hoof is contributing to the sinking in the middle? Or is the sinking more related purely to trim/hoof form? The scoots have been nice since they drain so well and he's been in them 24x7 (he lives out 95% of the time- only in for horrible weather).  I could try some form of Easyboot once he doesn't have the flared walls, they don't work with flares very well.   Hopefully someday he can be boot-free for turnout but I know we have a way to go.
  2. Second question - I was reading a lot of posts here re: Jiaogulan, and particularly an article by Dr. Kellon on the Uckele website.   My vet was here in June, he wanted Monty on isoxsuprine for increased blood flow to his feet. Is Jiaogulan something I should consider instead of isox?
  3. My other TB could use some help with his feet. They aren't as bad as Monty's but the heels are really... underdeveloped...? Can I request a trim eval for him? I would be happy to pay for an eval service.

    With sincere appreciation,

    Collaeyn and Monty
    Sewell, NJ
    June 2020
    https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Collaeyn%20and%20Monty
    https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248978


Re: Monty's trim

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Colleayn,

I've added mark-ups to Monty's album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248978

The radiographs confirm that you Monty has thin soles, long toes, underrun heels, flaring walls and some sinking. All of these are inter-related and are fixable. Goal heading forward is going to be to tighten up the trim to allow healthier growth to replace the damaged walls and connections. Having a tightly mineral balanced diet in place will provide Monty with the building blocks he needs to generate the healthier hoof.

LF dorsal: Blue lines follow the angle of the healthier growth from above toward the ground. Blue X's are the flared wall material that needs to be removed in the bottom 1/3 of the hoof. You can easily see where this is if you place the foot on a hoof stand then look down on it with your face as close to the leg as possible. The flaring will be obvious - bring the walls inward to match the angle from above. Finish it off with a bevel to keep the outer wall out of ground contact until the healthier connections have grown down to ground level.

LF lateral composite: On the radiograph, the pink line follows the angle of the bony column toward the ground. This line should actually extend further below the hoof but the rads were cut off right at the bottom of the foot. Red line indicates that NOTHING should be removed from the bottom of the foot as there is already too little there. Blue line is where the toe should be brought back to. Green line follows the angle of the new growth toward the ground. This isn't a trim line, just a visual marker - note that it runs parallel to the pink line. Yellow line 1 runs thru the coronary band. Yellow line 2 points to the extensor process. the distance between them denotes the amount of sinking as they should be located in the same place (or very close together).
On the photos, the green line is the same as the one on the rad. Blue area corresponds to the blue line and blue X's on the rad - which is the toe that needs to be removed/backed up. Orange line shows where the heels should be - which is a goal to aim for, not something you can trim the heels to immediately. Yellow line follows the coronary band: note how it arches upward, then curls down and forward as you move toward the heels. This is due to the heels running under and pulling the coronary band down/forward as well. Once the heels move back, the coronary band will relax into place as well.

LF sole: Blue line shows where the actual foot should be - with the walls tightly attached to the edge of the sole. Blue hashed areas are all the wall that is flared out and needs to be removed as it has no structural integrity. Leaving it in place only encourages more damage to occur. Orange circles are where the heel buttresses should be created once the flaring is removed. You want to preserve all the height that is there right now so just pas a rasp once lightly over that area to slightly flatten it. See this link for more specific info, esp. figures 2 and 3:

http://www.hoofrehab.com/HeelHeight.html

RF dorsal: Green lines follow the angle of the new growth down to the ground. Blue X's are the flared material that needs to be removed. The yellow lines follow a couple of the growth rings - note how they slope rather than being level, indicating medio-lateral imbalance.

RF lateral composite: Pink line shows how the bony column should align while the purple line follows the actual alignment. Note how the purple line dips back and down away from the pink line. This denotes that the HPA is broken back. The sinking, long toe and underrun heels are all contributing. Blue line is where the toe needs to be brought back to. Red line indicates that the bottom of the foot should NOT be touched as the sole is already too thin. Green line follows the angle of the new growth and is only a visual marker, not a trim line. It runs parallel to the pink line. Yellow line 1 runs thru the coronary band. Yellow line 2 points to the extensor process. The distance between them denotes the amount of sinking.
On the photo, Green line is the same as on the rad. Blue area corresponds to the blue X = toe that needs to be backed up. Orange line shows where the heels should be located. Yellow line follows the coronary band, just as on the LF.

RF sole: Same discussion as for the LF.

LH dorsal: Same as the fronts.

LH lateral: Same as the fronts.

LH sole: Same discussion as the front soles. Note that the medial heel is more flared, while on the fronts it was the lateral heels.

RH dorsal: Same as for the LH.

RH lateral: Same as for the LH.

LH sole: Same discussion as for the other soles.

Monty should remain in padded boots until he develops more sole depth and starts to develop some concavity.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: cracking hooves

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

We recommend the #603 as that runs everything using wet chem testing rather than NIR - it's more accurate.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Ongoing inflammation in feet despite best efforts

 

For the last 6 months, I have been working toward reducing my QH mare's weight and building sole depth in all four feet.  This was thought to be contributing to ongoing long term low grade lameness. (See vet report here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandra%20and%20Capri/CAPRI%20WESTON.pdf)

Despite achieving both goals (there is still room for improvement, but good progress made) - the lameness continues with minimal impact resulting from our achievements. (See followup vet report here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandra%20and%20Capri/CAPRI%20Weston%2026.6.20.pdf)

Capri has been yarded in a long gravel yard during the vast majority of this time, or on a paddock paradise track (when it has been dry enough).  She is on a balanced, low sugar, calorie controlled diet and either hand walked or ridden at the walk according to her comfort level 3 times a week. 

The most recent report indicates an ongoing low level of inflammation in her feet (at least that's how I read it).  I am not keen on their option of using bute when I ride her once a week (which is insufficient exercise anyway) and have purchased the product 'Alleviate' to see if that can reduce the inflammation in her body/feet and increase her comfort - leading to no lameness.

My question really is - what could be the cause of this inflammation when I feel like I'm doing all the right things?  When I take her out for exercise is the only time she gets access to green grass (which she snatches at and I try to limit).  Could that be the cause?  Could it be something else?  The vet report indicates it could be multiple things including joint issues.  I'm so frustrated by my inability to get things right :(


--

Sandra Weston

Joined 6/7/2016

Leeton, NSW, Australia

Case Histories:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandra%20and%20Molly

  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandra%20and%20Capri

Molly’s Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4424

Capri's Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4441


Re: cracking hooves

Griffin Keller
 

She totally agreed with my 4week request as both horses were quite long.  Most of the cracking was trimmed out, I'll grab some good pics this evening. She ended up coming quite a bit later than originally expected and Sully was 'over it' since she was focused on making sure we didn't have shoe issues like last cycle and were doing trot outs and such as we went, so it took a bit longer than usual.

I will be going to the extension office to get a soil test kit and doing an Equi-Analytic test of the grass itself (601 package) very soon!

--
Griffin 

Jan 2018, Charlottesville, VA

Prophecy (IR) Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Griffin%20and%20Prophecy

Prophecy (IR) Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=17115

Sleek N Wow (non IR) Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/Hoof/album?id=65070 


Re: cracking hooves

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

I know you're trying hard to get things squared away for Sully. Sometimes, it takes stepping back a bit and seeing things from a less personal perspective to help parse out what may be going on. We all get into the "can't see the forest for the trees" dimension at times.

Totally get the problem with finding an appropriate hoof pro - it's not uncommon, unfortunately - but with a performance horse, that just raises it to a whole new level of frustration.

Feed XL does not truly balance all your major and trace minerals - it works to eliminate frank deficiencies across the board but doesn't make the ratios between minerals optimum. Again, this may be OK for a pleasure horse at maintenance but is not precise enough for an endurance athlete nor the best bang-for-your-buck. Vit E and Se results from a blood panel are valid. Unfortunately, all other minerals won't show up as out-of-the ordinary until they are so far out of whack that the horse is obviously ill as the body maintains blood levels within very tight parameters until it is literally impossible due to severe excesses/deficiencies. Need to do the testing on what is actually going into the horse.

Testing your soil would be the best first step toward getting better, healthier pastures. When the soil is healthier and is maintained that way, the crop (pasture in this case) is more consistent. Testing the pasture itself is a moving target, although mineral levels are less volatile than the ESC+starch are across the seasons. Until you have specific data from your own pastures, using the data for grass in your area is the next best thing.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Monty's trim

Collaeyn Hazen
 


Re: cracking hooves

Griffin Keller
 

Thanks Lavinia, I guess that statement was a little too broad there!
He has a damaged spot on two hooves (medial side of RF & RH from an injury) that usually will chip a little.  But I never have had the toes do this before, and really did not notice any cracking until this cycle when we started having issues with the shoes... First, he was lame on the RF a mile into a trail ride within a week after due to the set of shoe causing toe pressure is what we finally figured out. Reset it and all was good! Then he ripped off the hinds 2 weeks later, so we put the "middle" shoe density that we used previously instead of the softest one (was trying out to see if they helped grip on grass).

1st thing of course is that I will be working to get him on a tighter schedule and discuss with her today.

Per FeedXL his diet is pretty balanced, using generic grass for our area - but I have been debating testing this pasture; sounds like I need to do so and see if something is way out of whack here with the grass (plan to lime this fall).
He did have blood work run this spring (Chem panel, Vit E & Selenium level check) and all came back good.

The farrier thing is a nightmare honestly...we are on #4 since I got him in 2018.  He actually did really well last year in the composite shoes, but the trimming was letting his heels run forward and the direction given by the vet to the farrier was not received well (farrier was at appointment) so we had to find someone else (again). 


--
Griffin 

Jan 2018, Charlottesville, VA

Prophecy (IR) Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Griffin%20and%20Prophecy

Prophecy (IR) Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=17115

Sleek N Wow (non IR) Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/Hoof/album?id=65070 


Re: cracking hooves

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Griffin,

You've just identified a number of major changes since last year: move, new farrier, diet changes, extended trim cycle. You also mention "cracking this bad", which implies there have always been integrity issues, just that it has now worsened.

Diet imbalances eventually catch up with the horse. Trim issues become magnified when the trim cycle lengthens. While pleasure horses can "get by" with a more haphazard approach, working endurance horses like Sully need a comprehensive approach. This means providing him with a mineral balanced diet to provide him with all the building blocks he needs - in the proper proportions - to support his system. Throwing "kitchen sink" feeds and supplements at him that are aimed at fixing individual problems doesn't address the underlying need to first pour the solid foundation, then tweak things to address any individual issues that he may have.

It also means regular hoof care tailored to his needs, rather than to the convenience of the farrier - I know this last can be a bugger when you are trying to get someone out to your area on a timely schedule - but that's what he needs to perform to his highest potential.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support

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