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Re: L-Arginine vs Jiaogulan

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Michele,

For cold-induced pain, you can combine Jiaogulan with L-arginine for a bigger nitric oxide boost if the j-herb isn't doing enough. Dosing is 2.2g/kg.

Here's a source for the L-arginine:

https://www.iherb.com/pr/Doctor-s-Best-Pure-L-Arginine-Powder-10-6-oz-300-g/63469?gclid=Cj0KCQjw9ZzzBRCKARIsANwXaeKdSebgsRSprNfW5rTkMqOEhzHcB6lS_CbnIrgRzvFkuVhDMO7TTW4aAgIVEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

You can read more about ancillary supplements in the ECIR NO Laminitis Proceedings (free to download) here:

https://www.ecirhorse.org/proceedings-2015.php

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


L-Arginine vs Jiaogulan

Michele Einarson
 

Kaeco has a (new-to-me) product, Biotin 800 ZA Plus, that includes L-Arginine.

Their claim:  
"
Nitric oxide is a gas produced within the horse's body that impacts circulation, vascular health and lameness, and is crucial in enhancing blood vessel circulation in the hoof. In horses, L-arginine supplementation may enhance overall exercise performance, recovery, assist in improving cardiac function and blood flow and potentially reduce the impact of lactic acid. With its ability to enhance circulation and to support the immune system, supplementation may also be beneficial in repair. In enhancing circulation, L-arginine can improve the delivery of nutrients for healing purposes. L-arginine may also prove valuable in the management of laminitis due to improved blood flow and vasodilation to the hoof region."

This seems to have the same function as Jiaogulan, which I’ve been feeding for cold weather hoof pain and hoof growth after a laminitis bout 2 years ago.  Should I consider adding L-Arginine?  Or is the Jiaogulan sufficient?  
--
Michele & Mosey
Feb 2019
Reno, NV, USA


Sarcoid in the hoof capsule?

Maria Duran
 

Hi all,

I am looking for some direction with a problem, maybe some of you have experience with this. I have asked to Dr. Kellon in THM and she thinks it might be a keratoma, not a sarcoid and maybe there was an error in the sampling. I leave here my original message in THM. Please feel free to comment. I will send to Lavinia the pics.

Thank you very much.

The horse has had 4 episodes of the sarcoid protuding through out the hoof capsule since 2013 up to now. He is 17 yo.

The one labeled as dec 2020 is how is the horse right now, the other ones are from the first time it happened on 2013 and lately in 2014 and 2016. I add a new one from january 9th.

I have translated the information the owner has sent me from herself and the lab that performed the biopsy and it says:

HISTOPATHOLOGY: Microscopically, a proliferation of connective tissue is appreciated
fibroblastic with typical histological characteristics although it appears more condensed than the
normal dermis. This connective tissue presents an abundant intercellular matrix of fibers of
collagen without follicular structures or attached glands being appreciated in its thickness. The
Fibrous fascicles intersect in the different directions of space giving in
occasions appearance of palisades. The fibroblasts that comprise it shows a degree
of low cellular atypia and a moderate mitotic index. The epidermal lining epithelium
appears ulcerated, verifying on the surface a necrotic-crusted band associated with a
inflammatory infiltrate consisting mainly of neutrophils, pyocytes, and macrophages. The
resection edges of the referred specimen are free of the fibrotic lesion.
 
DIAGNOSIS: Ulcerated skin sarcoid (hyperplastic-crusted dermatitis).
PROGNOSIS: Less serious.
COMMENTS: It is a collagen-productive fibroblastic mesenchymal tumor
that appears well differentiated. Differential diagnosis includes several proliferative processes
dermal fibroblasts such as an inflamed equine sarcoid. The main problem to
consider possible recurrences.
 
Comments from the owner:

At that time we proceeded to try to remove it with cold but it did not respond very well, so we started with the cream that I told you that I was formulated the one that I had at that time and they made it in the pharmacy , but I no longer have the composition, as the reaction was very painful I did suspend the treatment and it has lived like this until today, the size has been increasing progressively but without mobility or sensitivity problems in the area.
During these years it burst once in 2014 and another in 2016 approx.
Both times the irritated and burst tissue was removed with a scalpel, but until today nothing more.

My questions are, what can be done in your experience and if you believe that bloodroot, frankincense or cannabis oil might help with it. Also if xrays are indicated and what treatment could help.

Thank you very much in advance, if you need any information, I can ask the onwer, she is very colaborative.


Re: Cavallo Simple Boots Are Uncomfortable

Judy and Bugsy
 

Thanks for the information everyone.  

For added warmth I would put socks on Bugsy's hooves but the Scoot boots are  quite open and the socks would just get wet immediately, so I was looking more for a closed boot.  Since my initial post, we've had some terribly cold weather go through and Bugsy has not shown to be sore at all (no boots, just shipping boots and blanket(s).  I'm extremely thankful that he isn't showing winter laminitis signs as that could be a real PITA to deal with. I'll continue letting him wear the shipping boots and blankets and just change out the shipping boots with dry ones when the boots get full of ice.  


Re: Frog Cleft Or Commissure? Is This Normal?

Lynn
 

Thanks Ellen...I did post to the main group because I remembered Lavinia saying something about that in regard to our PPID horses....I have never noted this before in his feet.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History 
Relevante Photo Album
Ω


Re: Frog Cleft Or Commissure? Is This Normal?

 

This is an IMPORTANT issue in my book.
 
Normal, in that it is common?  Yes
 
Normal, in that 'is it healthy'?   NO 
 
I would post this to the main group, since it is in reference to your horse that has EMS and PPID ... and I feel it is of great importance... and frequently overlooked!
 
Ellen
N. Alabama
 


Frog Cleft Or Commissure? Is This Normal?

Lynn
 

Dumb question. When i was cleaning Relevante's hooves today I noticed [is it frog cleft or frog commissure?] on the frogs of the right and left front feet - that the cleft or commissure seems to travel up into the bulb area - I never noticed this before - is this normal? Sorry they aren't cleaner....the back feet aren't like this. Just wanted to make sure that nothing is wrong.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History 
Relevante Photo Album
Ω


Re: Does anyone have a draft cross that is "barefoot"?

 

Not personally but here in Wisconsin draft crosses are common and barefoot is also very common.

Tania Wadzinski
Wi 


Re: Does anyone have a draft cross that is "barefoot"?

Cindy Giovanetti
 

I do see a lot of drafts with terrible feet.  It may be that they learn to use their weight against their handlers (due to poor handling) making it difficult to keep their feet done.  Or it may be that farriers charge more to do drafts, and so owners put trims off too long.  Or it may be that it is difficult/expensive to get the necessary nutrients into them (because they would need more supplements than a smaller horse).  I don’t know.  But you do see a lot of bad feet on drafts.

 

Cindy


--
Cindy
Denton, Texas
Joined 2/19, but I was a member of the old Yahoo group
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden/Oden%20case%20history%20%287%29%20%281%29.doc
Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125


Re: Does anyone have a draft cross that is "barefoot"?

Barbara Rosensteel
 

Thank you everyone for your responses.  It is as I thought but I am glad to have it reinforced with your own experiences.   It is fortunate that there is a good barefoot trimmer working in this area. 
I can't share photos because I have not bought the horse yet.  Actually haven't even met him yet, but hope to this week.

Thanks,

Barbara


Re: Report on Flex boots WAS Re: Glue-on boots with pads

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Maxine, I'm glad they are working well for you and thanks for sharing those detsils! 

I'm looking forward to jogging with--and riding--Shaku in them this spring.  The dealer I bought from mentioned they are less grippy in snow than the Equine Fusion boots she sells so I can see they might be less grippy on other surfaces.  

I really like how easy on and off they are, that they stay on, and there is no rubbing or big debris getting in to the boot.  Also love that I can change out the gators daily or whenever they are wet, do a quick rinse and wipe of the rubber, we have a clean dry boot to pop back on!  For turnout in a wet climate, this is really great!

--
Kirsten Rasmussen
Kitimat, BC, Canada


Re: Does anyone have a draft cross that is "barefoot"?

Anne Coull
 

Agreed. I have all my draught and draught cross horses barefoot. It is much better for the horse.
You will have a happier, healthier horse if you keep their hooves tidy with regular trimming; and manage their diet so it is high fiber and low GI.

Kind regards
Anne

On 18 Dec 2020, at 4:51 am, Lavinia Fiscaletti <shilohmom@...> wrote:

No, drafts and draft crosses do NOT have to be in shoes just because they are drafts. If their feet are trimmed correctly, they can be barefoot just like any other breed. The most common issue is that their feet are erroneously allowed to get too flared and overgrown to allow them to be functional.

I have personally had several of them, barefoot, no problem. I trim several others that are also perfectly fine as long as their feet are maintained at their genetically programmed size, not at what we "think" they should be.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Report on Flex boots WAS Re: Glue-on boots with pads

Mary M.
 

I love my Flex boots. Have been using them since July even in our arena as it is quite firm on the track. The Kevlar pads work well, the heel wears down after a while, but that does not seem to affect performance. Glad you like them. 

Mary Marzec, Chelsea MI, 2012
Mary/Katie Case HIstory


Re: Used hoof boots

 

Deb, I too have a supply of used hoof boots I'll give you for the cost of shipping.  Let me know what kind and what size and I might have what you need.  

Jeannie
2001 MA


Re: Used hoof boots

Deb Walker
 

Ughhh. Thanks everyone.
--
Deb and Scotty I/R & PPID
Northwest Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619


Re: Does anyone have a draft cross that is "barefoot"?

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Barbara,

I'm sure Lavinia will have more to say on this but in my experience with work horses (3 Belgians and a Percheron) the large weight/size reason for shoeing is not true.  Our guys were barefoot and we did all our field work with them (living history farm) with no issues.  However, we had a farrier who didn't believe that all draft horse feet should be dinner plates and flare and crack all over.  He kept the boys trimmed properly and we didn't have any issues with them that I can recall.  If you can share pictures of the trim we can offer you more advice on this specific horse. 
--
Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge)
EC Primary Response 
PA 2014
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891


Re: Does anyone have a draft cross that is "barefoot"?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

No, drafts and draft crosses do NOT have to be in shoes just because they are drafts. If their feet are trimmed correctly, they can be barefoot just like any other breed. The most common issue is that their feet are erroneously allowed to get too flared and overgrown to allow them to be functional.

I have personally had several of them, barefoot, no problem. I trim several others that are also perfectly fine as long as their feet are maintained at their genetically programmed size, not at what we "think" they should be.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


Re: Does anyone have a draft cross that is "barefoot"?

Judy and Bugsy
 

My brother-in-law uses Belgians for heavy horse pulls and some of his horses are 2000 lbs + - they don’t need shoes.   My sister has a draft cross (about 1600 lbs) and he’s never had shoes on him his entire life and he is now 20 and just fine barefoot. 


Re: Does anyone have a draft cross that is "barefoot"?

nevabeta
 

Hi Barbara,
I’ve owned 4 draft crosses over the last 20+ years. My two Shire/TB crosses (halfs) I had from weanlings and were never shod. I had them trimmed every 6 weeks and aside from the occasional abscess, they were never unsound. My current Clyde/TB is also huge (15-1600 lbs 17.2-3, like the others) & has never been shod either. His hind feet have a tendency toward developing a crack on the out/lateral side. The vet who did the PPE said he would never be able to go barefoot, but farrier said if trimmed religiously every 5 weeks he should be ok. Farrier was thankfully correct and horse has never been unsound or had abscess in the 7 years I’ve had him. Newest cross is Percheron/Appendix; he came to me with front shoes which I pulled and he is also fine barefoot.
My horses are used for trail riding a few times a week over semi rocky terrain here in northern NJ. They live out 24/7 on similar footing.
HTH.
Best,
Aimée


Report on Flex boots WAS Re: Glue-on boots with pads

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Kirsten and all
Only two rides so far in our new Flex boots; no complaints yet. The first day I just tried them on and made some adjustments to where the gaiter sits and which slots the side straps go through, then rode in them the next day. I have their kevlar pads in the boots. We did a 11km ride on dirt and gravel fire trails, some rocky sections. Several good-sized hills. Walk, trot, a couple of canters. The boots didn't twist or rub at all. The only difference in gait was when she picked her way a bit more slowly than usual down a slippery gravel hill (I was leading)--possibly the Flex have less traction than a hard boot with more aggressive tread like Gloves or Renegades (our usual boots). Or maybe it just felt different in a more flexible boot. 
When the boots were removed, there was a smidge of pebbly sand in the back of the gaiter. 
This morning I tried them again, in a wet sand arena (hard sand, not deep) on the lunge. Nice forward movement from the horse, no twisting of the boots, and no sand at all in the back of the boot. 
They are easy to put on, do up, and take off. Probably about the same ease as Renegades, without the skin-shredding velcro. 
The only downside I have found so far is that the neoprene does get grass seeds stuck in the outside. I wouldn't use them for turnout in summer for that reason. 
I don't think the kevlar pads are magic, but they do look like they will last longer than the black EVA easycare pads. I'm hoping for mileage similar to the red easycare pads. 

I'm not sold on the breakover, but Indy seems to land well in them (not toe-first), so maybe it works okay. The hoof certainly seated itself better in the boot as our ride continued. Next time I lunge I'll take a slo-mo video to check landings. Like Shaku, Indy is probably closer to a 115 sizing straight after a trim, but by about week 2.5 of our 3-4 week trim cycle, she will be closer to the 120.

I did cut about 2mm off the top of the front of the boot--Indy has a short hoof capsule, and I wanted to be sure there was no chance of the top of the boot rubbing on her coronet band. Tres easy to do with kitchen scissors. 

Hope this helps anybody interested in trying these. 



On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 02:18 AM, Kirsten Rasmussen wrote:
Maxine, I've been using Flexboots on Shaku's fronts now for several weeks, so I should update you on them.

Shaku is between sizes.  I could cram his hoof into a 110 but there was no way pads would fit in there with his hoof, and he really needs pads for his very thin soles.  Plus the dorsal angle on the 110 boot seemed shallower than on the 120 boot, which meant his hoof didn't go in all the way to the toe of the boot.  And because his pasterns are big, II would have had to use the straps and gator from the 120's to close up the boot.  The 120s are technically too big but even in them Shaku's toe doesn't quite touch the toe of the boot, but the breakover is back far enough on the boot that I am satisfied (I like the 360 degree breakover on the boots!).   Despite being on the big side, I am using the 120s with 12mm black Easy Care pads (the Flexboot pads aren't as thick or conformable) that seems to keep them on snug enough that they don't twist.  I also am using an athletic sock over his hoof with foot powder to minimize moisture buildup between the hoof and pad because he has them on for turn-out 22/7.  Also, the way the pad conforms to the hoof and the grooves in the bottom of the boot seems to prevent the pad or boot from twisting.  Because of Shaku's recent laminitis I haven't been able to really test the boots riding or trotting in tight circles, but they have done well for turnout and he seems comfortable in them.  Except one morning I came out after we had a big overnight storm and I found the boots off his hooves, but still dangling around his pasterns from the upper straps.  Somehow he must have spooked and managed to literally jump out of his boots (and socks, which were laying side by side as if someone had carefully taken them off)...no idea how it could have happened!   No damage to the boots though, and just a confused look on Shaku's face in the morning.

I love how easy they are to put on, the straps are much easier on my fingers than his Scoots, and I love that I can change the gator daily when it gets damp from rain.  Plus with the padding, the rubber of the boot is well below the coronet and the only thing that touches his skin anywhere is the soft neoprene gator.  A little debris does get in the drainage holes, but the pads help to block that.   Mostly it's just a little sand, but I have found imprints in the hoof pads showing that the odd small pebble got in.

Overall I am very happy with them.  I just wish they had a 115 size to try as that might be a better fit, but I think the 120s with pads will be fine for the kind of trail riding I do.  I'd love to hear how they work out for you!

--
Kirsten Rasmussen
Kitimat, BC, Canada

 

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