No problem, Maria.

Having a good, solid trim in place is going to be a huge bonus as this damage grows out so that any tearing forces are kept to a minimum at all times.

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Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support

Hi Lavinia, 

Thanks for giving me a campion. It is crystal clear. I have already talked to my friend so that he asks the trimmer to put an eggbar again tomorrow. I don't know if he will accept but I have been very clear saying that he needs it for a full growth.

He just considered that a normal shoe was going to be enough but it is clear it is not. However he did a very good trim in my opinion.

Thanks again for being patient and explaining again the obvious.

María.

It sounds like contrary to what the trimmer thought, the horse needs the support of the eggbar shoe for a lot longer time frame. Unfortunately, 8mm of new growth for this type of injury is just not enough to hold the hoof together. It may actually require two full cycles of hoof capsule replacement to get an really good, strong hoof capsule, although with a tight, balanced trim in place you likely won't need any type of shoes after the first entirely new hoof capsule. If there is motion in that crack, it will just tear apart. You may be able to substitute casts at some point instead of shoes but for now, I'd go back to the eggbars.

Due to the extent of the damage, and the size of the horse, it will likely require keeping the eggbar shoe on until the damage has grown out at least 2/3 of the way, maybe even all the way to the ground. As you know, I'm an advocate of barefoot but also recognize that sometimes you just need to accept that the restrictions a shoe provides are exactly what is needed at that time to provide the structure for healing. Although putting a broken limb in a cast causes atrophy of all the surrounding muscles, it is necessary to allow the bone to heal. Once the bone has mended, then you work on rehabbing the other structures that were impacted negatively from the immobilization. In this case, stabilizing the wall fully takes precedence over all the optimum functioning of all the other structures.

The J-herb is not creating weaker growth, it's fueling increased growth due to improving circulation to the foot thereby increasing efficiency.That means more nutrients available, waste products removed more quickly. It will take a shorter period of time for the hoof capsule to grow out fully, so the time needed to be spent in the shoes will be less overall.

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Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support

I have one question, the horse was recovering well. He has a different trimmer that made a very good job in my opinion trimming the hooves and he changed the egg shoe to a normal shoe because he said it was enough. He is a barefoot trimmer and a farrier. He changed to barefoot because he said shoeing was not good for the horse and learned a new way, however he shoe horses if for some nasty reason they need it like in this case.

The horse had grown over 8 mm of new hoof and yesterday he had tiny blood spots over the coronary band and today the crack has opened again.

Because the horse is getting jiaogulan, I would like to know if the rapid growth could lead to a more weak tissue. I mean developing too fast but with less quality because of the fast growth.

Is it possible?

Thanks a lot.

María Durán
Madrid, Spain.

Thanks a lot Ellie!

I'm not sure either if that could be of help for a descendent crack but it is always good to have some tricks in the pocket in case things get ugly.

Thanks for sharing it.

María.

Here is the photo. Im. Not sure how well it would work for quarter cracks, but worth a shot. I've also seen video of cracks wired together.

Hope this link works

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2m2lxlk504u27sj/FB_IMG_1559211978117.jpg?dl=0

Hi Ellie, 

Thanks for sharing your experience. Yes it would be nice to see the pic. 

I have passed all the info Lavinia has given to me to the owner. He is much more aware of what is happening and we are making changes in the diet and in the horse routine and management.

The vet wants to cover the crack with fiberglass so your post is very well timed. 

Amazingly the horse is not sore and the other day was trying to compete at canter with other horse what we stopped inmediately. He was resting in a closed arena and someone drove his horse to the contiguous track, Kashmir was even doing flying changes hahaha. He is quite active but we stopped that.

María.

I'm a lurker-
But I'm chiming in to tell you about the acrylic patch my Farrier put over a crack (actually more of a hole, from an injury at the coronet) to prevent movement of the hoof wall, and facilitate healing.
This way, she was barefoot and could remain on a 4-6 week schedule.
He put putty in the hole to keep dirt out, then glued a patch over top, to either side of the crack. The acrylic could also be raised as it moved down with hoof growth (it fell off a a few weeks later, but it was enough to close the crack at the top).

I can try to post a photo

All perfectly clear.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

I will try to let you know how it goes. Thank you Lavinia. :)

I would say that 6 weeks is much too long a time frame when the toes are still too far out ahead of where they need to be now. I think 4-5 weeks maximum until the trim is exactly where it needs to be. The problem is going to be that with nailed on shoes, you are limited on the number of times you can nail into the same area. Maybe discuss the possibility of doing glue-ons instead so they can be changed out more often  - although the cost gets pretty steep for that route. It really depends on what is happening with the growth - you never want to be playing catch-up.

Cover the wound in some way - use a wound dressing and then lightly bandage it until it has closed up so no live tissue is visible or accessible.

I mean anything more than turnout, hand walking, possibly sitting on him and walking around several months from now. The time frame will depend on how quickly the new, solid growth comes in. Push the work load too quickly and it will fall apart again or become a chronic issue that is always tending to split under the lightest of stressors. I personally wouldn't be even thinking of jumping until it had grown out completely, but that's me.

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Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support

Hi Josephine, 

Thank you for your advice and concern. I had already told him to increase hay and reduce the concentrate to 2 kg and feed a protein balancer because the riding school will not allow free choice hay. 

Why do you believe he would be tying up? Is the Holsteiner breed prone to it?

He is 620 kg right now. Is quite a big horse and very well muscled 

Also Lavinia, I just remembered now, do you suggest any way to avoid flies and infection in the crack?

Thank you!

María.

Hi Maria
in addition to getting his diet balanced so he can grow healthier hooves I’m afraid the horse may “Tie-Up” or get “Monday morning disease” if his high sugar concentrates aren’t cut back to around 1kg a day while he’s not working
good luck
josie
Davis CA 06/09

Oh forgot it. The farrier said he would like to trim again in 6 weeks. Is this too much? It feels like it.

María.

Lavinia! Thank you, thank you and thousand times thank you! 

Yes by this time the horse seems sound.

One last thing, when you say this "wouldn't feel comfortable putting him back into work until the solid wall has grown down at least 2/3 of the way to the ground so that is doesn't split again." What do you mean with back to work? What kind of work? Because I still believe that jumps would be too much at that time. I guess you mean walk-trot-canter or even that would be too much?

Thank you for all the explanations. They make so much sense to me.

María.

I've added the sole shot to the album as well. Thanks for sending it along.

The frog appears fairly healthy but it is stretched forward to some degree and not as robust as it could be, which is a fairly common occurrence in horses who are always shod because they don't use their frogs much-if-at-all.

Those imbalances may have been exacerbated by the work of the previous farrier but they date back a lot further than two months as the amount of excess toe length and laminar wedge goes almost the entire height of the dorsal wall. That is 9-12 months of growth. I think that there has been some degree of Hi-Low going on for most of this hoerse's life, which it has been managed to some degree but not actually fully addressed. All of the subtle imbalances literally exploded when the trim completely fell apart during the tenure of the last farrier.

1. I certainly wouldn't recommend a full workload when the hoof has literally split from top to bottom and the live tissues are exposed. The coronary band needs to be stabilized so that there is as little movement in it as possible while it generates a solid hoof wall from the top down. I wouldn't feel comfortable putting him back into work until the solid wall has grown down at least 2/3 of the way to the ground so that is doesn't split again. That would likely take at least 6 months time. It may take two full hoof growth cycles for there to be a really solid connection, but that will depend on how fast (and how well) he regenerates the new capsule. If diet and trim get really tight then he has the greatest potential to heal more quickly. You could consider adding Jiaogulan to increase circulation and accelerate the hoof growth, but then you also need to make absolutely sure the trim remains spot-on at all times or the speedier growth will backfire by outpacing the trim. I would also be vigilant about not allowing infection to enter until the wound seals over - that fly in one of the pictures is concerning at this time. Turnout in a small area, with level footing, no racing around or sharp turns to stress the foot until there is evidence of some new, connected growth. Hand walking would likely be fine as he is currently sound, correct?

2. This is one of the times where a shoe may be your friend as it will definitely minimize any expansion/contraction of the foot during movement. Although that is generally not a positive thing, in this case you need to stabilize the wall edges, and esp. the coronary band itself, so that new wall can grow in attached - think a cast on a broken arm. Shoes will prevent flexion of the feet so will stabilize the entire area, allowing it to grow out. Egg bars will stabilize the heels at one height by creating a level perimeter for the hoof to stand on.

4. I don't know that rolling the wall would be helpful at this time, esp. as he is in shoes. It appears as if the current farrier has done a good job aligning and stabilizing the area. I would definitely want to see the toes come back more so the breakover gets set in the correct location.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support

Lavinia I have sent you the sole view picture. Seems like I forgot to add it. My apologies. 

Thank you!

María.

Thank you so much Lavinia for your time and comments.

Yes the rings are in all four feet but walls and frogs in that horse seems to me very healthy and strong. The horse was perfect before the former farrier and in just 2 months of his work that farrier caused all that damage and imbalances.

So Lavinia please or Dr. Kellon, when you have the time I need answer to these questions:

1- What's the protocol the horse should be doing regarding rest? Stall confined? An open small area where he can walk but not trot? Is he able to take daily walks by hand? How much time each? The owner is being adviced to jump with the horse and do normal work what doesn't seem right to me.

2- Is the crack better addressed with shoes or barefoot? Is the egg shoe appropriate for the crack treatment?

3- How long the new wall should be grown up before he can return to work? He usually jumps and do dressage work combined with rides outside at walk.

4- Would a steep rolling be adviced in the hoof wall area of the crack so that pressure is relieved at that spot and mechanical forces are not pressing over the crack?

I will let the owner know all the advices. He is very open and does whatever is best for the horse so it is easy to help. We are improving the diet.

Oh and you have an awesome eye Lavinia, toes can come further back. I have a pic where it is clear where the new wall wants to grow and it matches what you say.

Thank you so much again.

María.

Hi Maria,

I've created an album and added the photos:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/Hoof/album?id=90925

The crack in the RF is likely due to the previous imbalances. Once those started to get fixed, there just wasn't enough wall thickness left to keep it from splitting apart along the line that was already there. Whoever is doing the trimming now has improved a number of the obvious issues but they will take time to grow out completely. Toe is still too long on that one, heels are severely underrun. There was obvious wall flaring, worse laterally, that still needs to be addressed. The RF is the "low" foot while the LF is the"high" one.

The rings definitely have a mechanical component but I can't tell you if that is the only reason. Do the other three feet also show those rings? If the walls are thin/shelly/don't hold shoes well, there is likely also a dietary imbalance factor at play. Because of the issues he now faces, getting his diet as well-balanced as is possible so that he has all the building blocks he needs to form good hooves will be essential.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support

Forgot to say he is a Holsteiner. He was re shoed yesterday.

If you don't mind I would also like to know if the rings in the hoof walls are from the diet or are mechanical. He is recieving 4.5 kg of concentrate
but was just 1 week ago getting 6 kg of it.

I have convinced the owner to add zinc,copper, vit E, flax, salt and magnesium but still working on the diet.

I don't know if he could work 12 hours per week with 3 kg of a 40% sugar/starch concentrate and the hay.

I know now he can't work but thinking of when he comes back to work.

I can tell you that the former shoeing was the most horrible one I have ever seen. The horse was walking over his toes in all four feet, heels not balanced and contracted and long toes flaring with underun heels.

Maria.

Thank you for answering. Lavinia I just sent you the pictures
I am sorry that are not good but the horse wasn't quiet even for a minute so I just took them in a second.

He is not IR or PPID.

Amazingly he doesn't seem to be sore and is not lame by now.

The owner is recieving all kind of suggestions and none of them seems logical to me so I would appreciate your expert opinion on what to do for him as he has some shallower more cracks in the hinds.

Also what kind of rest he should be doing and for how long. Can the horse be hand walked? Or does he need to be stall confined? 

Thank you very much in advance. I don't trust opinions out there but yours.

María Durán