Concerned about hooves. Pics.


Barbara Henry
 

Wow Wow, Thank you I will copy this! I am in search of a farrier that can trim. I was tarred and feather when I mention the trims were wrong. The feet were cracking and falling apart after 4 weeks. I actually though Monroe had foundered. Is there a list of barefoot trimmer for CA.


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

A trim for a horse that is going to remain barefoot is NOT the same as the trim done on a horse that is then going to be shod. Unfortunately, too many farriers trim for a shoe, then just don't put a shoe on. The basic goal of a trim should be to align the hoof capsule with the needs of the bony column housed within. It doesn't matter whether the horse will then have some sort of appliance attached or be left bare. A good trim can then be tweaked to accommodate either scenario.

A mechanically incorrect trim doesn't do the job well either way, and can actually be more harmful when an appliance is then attached because the hoof can no longer make it's own corrections thru wear. Many of the issues that are used as reasons for putting shoes on a horse - cracking, flaring, chipping, flat soles, underrun heels, stretched white lines - are due to the trim itself being mechanically unsound so the "problems" are just nature responding to the situation. Tighten up the trim and the issues begin to resolve. This doesn't rule out other contributing factors such as dietary imbalances and underlying health issues that also play a role so they must be also be recognized and dealt with or the feet will continue to be unhealthy, whether shod or bare.
 
--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Collaeyn Hazen
 

Hi Cindy,

I have taken the giant step of trimming my own horses now. I was so unhappy with the flaring and long toes and under-run heels that made both of my TB's soles very thin. I gave my farrier mark-ups that Lavinia did, but she didn't really honor them.  So I've taken things into my own hands.  I try to rasp a little bit every few days so it doesn't get to be a lot of wall. I used nippers for the first time last week - just a little on back hooves, but it went OK!  There is another owner on this group who is 60 years old and took over doing her morgans' hooves, she was very inspiring. 

From what I have seen from how my farrier trimmed and from the other boarders at my farm, is that they are trained (I guess) to do the hooves a certain way, and it causes/promotes/perpetuates the flares and under-run heels. The Pete Ramey hoofrehab.com page and Lavinia's markups can give you a road-map for how to gradually change the shape of your horse's hooves. I'm certainly no expert, I just started my own geldings a month ago, but their feet already look better and I don't have to wait for a farrier. I used to think "after she does their feet they will look better" but they never did.  

Good luck! 
--

Collaeyn, Monty, Shark, and Duke
Sewell, NJ
June 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Collaeyn%20and%20Monty
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248978   (Monty pics)
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=250635   (Shark pics)


Cindy Giovanetti
 

I cannot imagine that my vet would come up with a good trimmer. My vet has willingly prescribed Metformin and sent blood to Cornell; but he knows nothing about what we’re doing. He is virtually just cooperating with my requests. I am definitely leading him.

Cindy


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Cindy
Denton, Texas
Joined 2/19, but I was a member of the old Yahoo group
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden/Oden%20case%20history%20%287%29%20%281%29.doc
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125


Tucker
 

It is my experience that farriers and vets do not criticize each other
because most of their business is word of mouth. I think telling them
exactly what you want is the way to go. Finding one that listens and
doesn't assume they know way more than you is the challenge. Once, I
was telling a farrier that it was important to leave the frog alone
except for ragged edges and he says, this is how it's done (as he
carved off most of her frog in two quick strokes!) I was horrified and
it did cause her to get sore along with him taking off most of the
callus she had built up at the toe after I explained that she needed
all her sole left on. I found a new farrier after that and was so
lucky to have him...he worked with an area vet on problem horses and
knew his stuff. I miss him but think I've found another good farrier
in our new area who also schedules you in advance so will be timely.
Perhaps ask your vet for recommendations? That's how I found my new
guy. I do some filing between farrier visits especially to keep the
toes rounded for better breakover. Good luck finding the right person!


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

That toe first landing is not "fine".  I agree 7 weeks is too long but your post trim photos also look too long. Radiographs, at least laterals, would be extremely helpful. It looks like he has excessive foot in general.
--
Dr. K


Cindy Giovanetti
 

So here’s a strange update.

Another trimmer was recommended, and I contacted her. I sent her the same pictures and video that I shared here and elsewhere. So, she has an opportunity to criticize the current trimmer and take his job.

She said my trimmer is absolutely correct that the horse is fine, the hoof is fine, the technique is fine, and the stride is fine.

So perhaps it was much ado about nothing.

I’ve asked the long-time trimmer to try to get us in more frequently. Perhaps that’s all we need.

And Dr. K, I totally understand your point.

Cindy

--
Cindy
Denton, Texas
Joined 2/19, but I was a member of the old Yahoo group
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden/Oden%20case%20history%20%287%29%20%281%29.doc
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125


Patricia Evans
 

Hi Cindy,
It's VERY hard to change from a long-time trimmer. I had a trimmer that had been doing my horses for 10+ years that I eventually talked myself into replacing. We actually looked on him as a friend and he helped us do other thing around the farm, so it was even harder for me to make that decision, but I do not regret it a bit. 

I finally changed to a really nice guy that did great with my little guys, but not so well with my big one. When he started pushing for shoes for my big guy, I  decided to start doing them myself. I was petrified I would 'mess them up' but I did them for about a year before my back started bothering me so much that I started looking for another trimmer. I was soooo over paying someone to mess up my horses feet when I could mess them up myself for free. Good trimmers in my area are very scarce, so it's not an easy thing to 'just change trimmers' as my husband likes to say.

Right now, I have a trimmer that is great with my big guy but not so good with the little ones. I'm not sure how that works because all three stand very well for the vet, farrier, etc. and they all have hooves, just different sizes. So, I've compromised - I do the littles and she does the big one. Not an ideal situation, but it works for now. 

If you can start doing your own horses feet it would really free you up from having to depend on someone, but it is a very big responsibility and a big learning curve. At least the learning curve was steep for me. I have all the books I can get my hands on from Pete Ramey, Jaime Jackson and the Under The Horse video series by Pet Ramey, as well as some videos by Jaime jackson. I've read as much online as I can, and there is a LOT of bad, conflicting information out there. Plus, Lavinia is a GREAT resource. It still intimidates me, but I get so angry when one of my horses comes up sore after a trimmer trim but they have never been sore after a trim by me. 

Rant ended! Good luck with your horse. Crossed fingers that things work out well for you! 
--
Patricia 
North central Florida
July 7 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Patricia%20and%20Dancer%20and%20Nathan
Dancer:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=66069

Nathan:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94152


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 11:37 PM, Cindy Giovanetti wrote:
Thank you so much, Lavinia.  I posted about this in the Hoof Care and Rehab group on FB, and I got alarming responses!  Including PPSM, PPID, sacroiliac issues, Vitamin E deficiency, ataxic, Navicular, Stifles, foot dragging, hind suspensory issues, kissing spine, luxating patella, and EPM!  :0
I've watched this several times and see no evidence whatsoever of any of those things! He isn't even toe dragging - he's toe first landing because his hoof is too far out in front of him. This is where his heels should be relative to the frog https://i.pinimg.com/originals/47/df/f6/47dff6d010a8eb1b8ec4fb98e5ca34e0.jpg . Hoof pain can also make them land toe first but the walk is not the best gait to see that (the trot is), especially if it's bilaterally equal pain.

Also, I  know you explained you were just reporting your farrier's reaction and comment, not yours, I would like to remind everyone that there's no place for that here. A simple "my farrier/trimmer was not receptive" will do. That negative energy is a waste. Let's focus on being productive.

Dr. K
 
--
Dr. K


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

No problem, Cindy.

My goal is to try to provide owners with information they can use in discussions with their hoof care providers. If everything was going perfectly on the hoof care front, my assumption is that the owner wouldn't be looking for input.

Even if the horse is laminitic, a physiologically correct trim doesn't consistently make him lame(er) every time. If it does, then there is something wrong with the mechanics for that horse that need to be addressed. Accepting the lameness rather than rethinking the strategy used makes the situation about maintaining the hoof pro's comfort rather than that of the horse.

A great many of the people on ECIR have been in the position of having to question the situation with their hoof pro and the need to make changes for the sake of their horse's comfort. Some have been able to work in cooperation with their current professional, many have not. Not easy either way.

If you choose to look for a new hoof pro, look at the feet of horses you see in your area. When you see ones you like, ask who does the work. If you contact someone on a recommendation or from a list, ask for references then follow thru on contacting the references and seeing the work. Or ask to see current pictures of that person's work - pretty easy to do these days, with cell phone cameras being so prevalent.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


threehorsefarm
 

Ida Hammer has several Texas grads, maybe one is  close enough to help you.  

Robyn
Kansas 2012

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 10:55 AM Cindy Giovanetti <Cindyg@...> wrote:
I hope you know *I* wasn’t disparaging your advice.  I was hoping he would be willing to contemplate a second opinion, but I expected he would not be. He does what he does, and he is not flexible.  

He knows full well that Oden comes up sore after trims, but he says it’s because he has laminitis.

I am contemplating contacting another trimmer. 

Man, it’s hard.  Horse health is more important than long-time-trimmer’s feelings. But then there’s the randomness of not knowing whether a different trimmer would be a little bit better or a little bit worse. 

Cindy


Cindy Giovanetti
 

I hope you know *I* wasn’t disparaging your advice.  I was hoping he would be willing to contemplate a second opinion, but I expected he would not be. He does what he does, and he is not flexible.  

He knows full well that Oden comes up sore after trims, but he says it’s because he has laminitis.

I am contemplating contacting another trimmer. 

Man, it’s hard.  Horse health is more important than long-time-trimmer’s feelings. But then there’s the randomness of not knowing whether a different trimmer would be a little bit better or a little bit worse. 

Cindy


_._,_._,_

--
Cindy
Denton, Texas
Joined 2/19, but I was a member of the old Yahoo group
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden/Oden%20case%20history%20%287%29%20%281%29.doc
Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Cindy,

It's unfortunate that the discussion with your trimmer wasn't more productive. As everyone is entitled to their opinion, I provided mine based on what I could see in the few hoof photos we had available. I don't recall making any disparaging comments regarding your trimmer's work.. 
For some reading, you can take a look at all of the articles on Pete Ramey's site. Here are a few to get you started:

http://www.hoofrehab.com/HeelHeight.html

http://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsesSole.html


http://www.hoofrehab.com/FrogTrim.html


Paige Poss has a lot of good information here:

http://www.ironfreehoof.com/


Also see the NO Laminitis Proceedings from 2017: Bowker's presentation on the Vascular Cushion of the Frog:

https://www.ecirhorse.com/proceedings-2017.php

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Cindy Q
 
Edited

Hi Cindy

I attended one of Pete's clinics in the later part of last year. Pete always says (online as well as in person) that we should strive for the horse to be better or the same in comfort after the trim. The fact that your post says "He has come up mildly lame after his last several trims." is something you could bring up to your trimmer.

Pete's articles to start you off with:
https://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsesSole.html
https://www.hoofrehab.com/HeelHeight.html
https://www.hoofrehab.com/Breakover.html

I also see on the pictures a lot of rasp or knife marks on the sole. (Read Pete's sole article carefully)

That straight line across the toe makes me think he is dragging his toe a bit.
--
Cindy and Glow - Sep 2017, Singapore
ECIR Primary Response

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Glow
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9798


Cindy Giovanetti
 

Lavinia, 

As expected, my trimmer was outraged and insulted at your critique of his work. He said Oden’s hooves are most definitely not underun, and you are a charlatan.

Can you direct me to any online instruction that he might respect? I mean, I plan to google myself. But if you know of a source that a trimmer would regard, that would be best.  He pretty much only respects Pete Ramey and Jamie Jackson.

I know it’s easy to say “Time to get another farrier,“ but that is not something to be done lightly. I do believe my farrier is very good if not infallible. (LOL)

I don’t have x-rays of Oden‘s hooves. My vet does not have mobile equipment. Obviously I can go to a different vet if it becomes necessary. It doesn’t seem necessary to me because he’s not lame. His stride may not be perfect, but he’s willingly walking across concrete (which he will not do if he’s sore).

Cindy_._,_._,_

--
Cindy
Denton, Texas
Joined 2/19, but I was a member of the old Yahoo group
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden/Oden%20case%20history%20%287%29%20%281%29.doc
Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

While there is always a remote possibility that something more dire is happening, generally, it makes sense to assume horses, rather than Zebras, when you hear hoof beats. When the toes get too long it slows the breakover time so he will drag them more while rolling over them during the stride. That will abrade the front more, shortening the toe length. The underrun heels contribute as they tilt the foot back, lowering the palmer angle.

Underrun heels are when the heel buttresses are are located further forward than they should be. It means the weight of the horse is actually coming down behind the heels. If you've ever had your foot slip part way out of your shoe , then taken a step, your heel lands behind the back of the shoe rather than in it. Not comfortable, nor healthy, if you continue to walk that way. You also need to add some height to the back half of the feet relative to the front half in order to tilt the feet into a more correct configuration. SO to correct the underrun heels , you can't just rasp them more to move them further back immediately as that will make the already compromised palmer angles worse.

There appear to be knife and/or rasp marks on the sole. I would recommend never taking anything off his soles again as there doesn't appear to be any concavity there, so likely the soles are already too thin.

Again, need a full set of labeled photos to be more specific.

Have you ever had any rads done of his feet?

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Cindy Giovanetti
 
Edited

Thank you so much, Lavinia.  I posted about this in the Hoof Care and Rehab group on FB, and I got alarming responses!  Including PPSM, PPID, sacroiliac issues, Vitamin E deficiency, ataxic, Navicular, Stifles, foot dragging, hind suspensory issues, kissing spine, luxating patella, and EPM!  :0

 

Here’s the video of him walking just after the trim. 

https://bit.ly/3f554O6

 

Can you tell me what underrun heels are?  I’m sure you’ve explained this many times.  Sorry.  I’ll share your observations with my farrier.

 

Cindy

 

 


--
Cindy
Denton, Texas
Joined 2/19, but I was a member of the old Yahoo group
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden/Oden%20case%20history%20%287%29%20%281%29.doc
Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Cindy,

You can't upload videos to the group. Best thing is to put it up on You-tube, then provide the link.

Take a breath - this isn't anything serious, it's just Mother Nature doing what's needed. You've already pinpointed the reasons this is happening. That wear pattern is just him wearing off his toes quite evenly across the front because he's consistently breaking over in those locations. Moving more along the track creates more wear so makes it more obvious when the trim cycle gets extended. It tells you the trim cycle is too long.

Really need a full set of labeled hoof photos to be more specific but his heels are undererun and the one sole shot shows that he's flaring in the heels.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Cindy Giovanetti
 

I just added hoof pictures to Oden's photo album.  Also his case history is up to date.  I also have a video of him walking just after the trim if I can figure out how to get it in the album.

In his last trim cycle, he wore a straight line across all four toes.  I think he did it a bit in the trim cycle before as well, but not this obvious (not this alarming).

The trimmer said this is due to flair.

No change in trim or trimmer.  He did go about 7 weeks between trims the last two cycles (normally does fine with 6 weeks); but the trimmer couldn't get out sooner for some reason.  I asked him to try to get to me more frequently in the future, but we'll see.

Oden's on a new track, but the track has been growing slowly, so it wasn't a sudden change. Virtually no other work.

He also went off his feed maybe six weeks ago, and I had to drop all meds and supplements and add some other feeds to figure out what the problem was. 

He normally eats only Triple Crown Balance Cubes.  When he went off his feed, I used Nuzu Stabul 1, Cavalor Fiber Force, and Green Meadows Equine Balance to get him back on.  (I was afraid it was the cubes that he was refusing, but it wasn't.)  So he's largely back on Triple Crown Balance cubes and the normal meds (Metformin) and supplements now. 

He has come up mildly lame after his last several trims.  I put him in boots, and he's OK in about 5 days.  

What am I dealing with here?  Thanks in advance.
--
Cindy
Denton, Texas
Joined 2/19, but I was a member of the old Yahoo group
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden/Oden%20case%20history%20%287%29%20%281%29.doc
Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125