I have a few apologies to make. First, I got tied up in things and
couldn't get back in a timely manner.

--- In ECHoof@..., "ranginui2007" <lynjwilliams@...>
wrote:

Cheryl - as you know his heels are too long and under run - why not
trim them?
These feet need a really good trim and, unless he has movement to

wear his own walls and frog, you need to trim them regularly to keep

them level with the sole;

Your assessments of the hooves are what I've been seeing and I
probably should have been more thorough in my earlier post. The date
of last trim was noted on the pictures. There were no trims in
between. I normally trim him every two weeks or a quickie every week.
As you saw from the photos that were 2-1/2 weeks, his feet were all
over the place. During the winter, quarters will grow back in 2 days.
He and his buddy are out 24/7 with a large run-in shelter.

I trimmed him Sunday, April 8th. The ground had gotten firm in the
arena and the shelter has a large ag lime apron that leads out to the
paddock, which was still soggy, and to the left the arena. When I
trimmed March 13, the apex of the fronts was peeling back and I
snubbed it off. We debated upon trimming him before pictures and
thought it was better to show the growth in that short of time. I
noticed then that growth at the apex was peeling back again. It
seemed that over the winter, the frogs became weeds. At this trim,
those front frogs were ready to come off, not as much on the hinds.
The frogs were really good, solid tissue. At this point, walls are
still level with sole but I can see some frog growth starting to go
lateral and medial again at the heels. Not much.


I have put up another photo with I hope is a better explanation of a
problem of trying to lower the heels. That sole at the heel has two
different planes. A hoof knife hasn't touched those soles in probably
a year. Tissue in the back just kept flaking off with just a hoof
pick or back of a knife. It would stop of awhile and start up again.
I've not seen anything happening since the WL soaks which last ended
middle of March.

I really don't understand why you think he doesn't have bars -

there's

loads of bar material and I suspect quite a lot sitting under the
edges of the frog. They are weak though (especially RF) and my guess
is the very long heels are receiving too much impact and curling
inwards and this is affecting the quality of bar horn.


I have flipped the image of a couple of hind shots to help you 'see'
the heel and bar structure more clearly. The red lines show where

the

bar actually sits - there's a lot of dead frog material sitting over
the bar and hiding its true dimensions - likewise the heel horn is
curling inwards and across the heel/bar turning point.

In one I've outlined the bar in black and the heel in red try to
illustrate how the heel is curling around and strangling the bar. if
you don't understand I'll try to do a line drawing and scan it.

Believe me - this horse has bars - not nice straight healthy ones -
but they are there and if you release the compressing forces of the
under-running, too long and curling inwards heels, they'll recover.

Your marked up photos were great and I understood what you were
saying. I should have been using the phrase, width of bar.

The strange colour of the frog - my guess is its just dead material,
maybe stained in some way - reacting to some chemical possibly. If
he had been badly enough bruised for it to show to that extent he'd
be as lame as a duck.

Like most of the northern portion of the country, we had a rough
winter, which we haven't seen in fifteen years. Snow, ice, high winds
and frigid temperatures and the last couple of weeks, boot-sucking
mud. My other horse had it on the red coloring on the front frogs. We
were still in muddy conditions when pictures were taken but ground
had started to firm.

End of outer wall --I accidently cut your question out of you post

When the snow hit, that area stuck out like a sore thumb. On all four
feet and all heels, the colored outer wall stopped and from that
point, it was inner wall. Pulling up on the periople, new heel growth
does have the colored outer wall.

I will be having an experienced trimming instructor here on April 22.
My friend, who took the pictures, was with the trimmer this weekend.
I don't know if they had time to go over them. I will be keeping good
notes in the mean time doing no trimming. Dave at Equipcast has seen
the pictures and I haven't had time to deceifer my notes from the
conversation.

Thanks,
Cheryl

--- In ECHoof@..., Abby Bloxsom <dearab@...> wrote:

Try right-click and "save"?

Don't know for sure, haven't done it in a while.

-A

Thanks all. Got it. Figured out the right hand mouse button. A Mac
person, not a PC. Mac is not hooked up to internet. I have dialup with
phone lines installed after the invention of the telephone. At times
I'm dead.

Cheryl

can you simply email copies of the photos to yourself, and check your email on the oter computer?  download them etc?

ranginui2007 wrote:

One Question: I'd like to copy and move your marked up photos to another computer with a large screen and be able to look at them all at once. I tried the "copy" feature but it wouldn't allow me to go to my stick drive. How do you do that?

Try right-click and "save"?

Don't know for sure, haven't done it in a while.

-A


--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com

um -pass.

Anyone else?

Lynn,

Quite a bit to digest and get my wording correct. I'll get back in a
bit.

One Question: I'd like to copy and move your marked up photos to
another computer with a large screen and be able to look at them all at
once. I tried the "copy" feature but it wouldn't allow me to go to my
stick drive. How do you do that?

Thanks a lot,
Cheryl

Cheryl - as you know his heels are too long and under run - why not
trim them?

RF - squaring his toes; slight dip at coronet; walls are too long;
sitting too proud of the sole - he's peripheral loading as Bowker puts
it.
Lateral view shows how underslung the hoof is; the horn tubules are
all running forward at too great an angle. This has the effect of
pulling the heels under. Quarters too long. Wavy lines indicate too
great a pressure on the toe.
Frog is poor, atrophied; there's a lot of frog material there but its
not healthy. I'd trim it from the apex tapering it to the rearward
third which I'd leave weightbearing. Looks like he's had an abscess
blow out the medial heel.
Sole view - more contracted medially - flaring laterally; Medial heel
is curling over and that's definitely bar material - weak - but
definitiely bar.
I don't understand the 'end of outer wall' mark.

RH - heels are under run and toe is too long; bars are more pronounced
but weak. Same comments re length of walls; heels are way too long;
frog horn looks unhealthy. The heel-toe view shows how far under the
hoof is - the initial impact points of the heel and bar have to be
brought back and down. Heels are also tending to curl inwards -
deforming the bar.

LF - looks inside high. Horn tubules running forward same as RF. Sole
looks full; walls too long; heels curling; clear bar structure but
also weak. Same comments as RF basically. Oblique view shows curling
heel very clearly and you can see the top of the bar - actually looks
like its been trimmed. Toe is too long.

LH looks outside high - slightly flaring medially. Way too long - IIP
too far under - bars laying over sole. Old abscess lateral heel?

Interesting - abscesses on RF medial and LH lateral.

I really don't understand why you think he doesn't have bars -there's
loads of bar material and I suspect quite a lot sitting under the
edges of the frog. They are weak though (especially RF) and my guess
is the very long heels are receiving too much impact and curling
inwards and this is affecting the quality of bar horn.

These feet need a really good trim and, unless he has movement to wear
his own walls and frog, you need to trim them regularly to keep them
level with the sole; otherwise he's taking way too much impact on the
wall horn in particular. Heels must be lowered and frog also and back
the toes hard to give him a more comfortable breakover.

As to weak DC and LCs - get the hard horn and movement sorted and you
may find the soft tissue will take care of itself. It won't regenerate
unless the hard horn allows it.

I have flipped the image of a couple of hind shots to help you 'see'
the heel and bar structure more clearly. The red lines show where the
bar actually sits - there's a lot of dead frog material sitting over
the bar and hiding its true dimensions - likewise the heel horn is
curling inwards and across the heel/bar turning point.

In one I've outlined the bar in black and the heel in red try to
illustrate how the heel is curling around and strangling the bar. if
you don't understand I'll try to do a line drawing and scan it.

Believe me - this horse has bars - not nice straight healthy ones -
but they are there and if you release the compressing forces of the
under-running, too long and curling inwards heels, they'll recover.

You need to spread the loading forces evenly; bring the IIP back and
down, shorten the toe (length not height, trim off the proud wall to
allow the sole to share the load, put in scoops to relieve the
quarters - and let him move as much as he can take on as firm ground
as he can cope with.

The strange colour of the frog - my guess is its just dead material,
maybe stained in some way - reacting to some chemical possibly. If he
had been badly enough bruised for it to show to that extent he'd be as
lame as a duck. I'd trim away all the dead stuff - people tend to hang
onto frog material for dear life - but all the necrotic stuff does is
provide lunch for pathogens - and mask the true dimensions of the
foot. So, get a skilled person with a very sharp knife to trim the
frog back to healthy tissue; establish its true tip (probably about
1-2cms back from where it is at the moment) so you can judge the
dimensions of the hoof; remember the 3/5:2/5 rule.

Hope this makes sense - I know exactly what I mean :)

Lynn

I originally had asked a question regarding loss of bar and have now
been able to post digital pictures located in folder "LUKE" for
advice and do I need it!. The first post contains a little of his
background. I now can put this in the hands of the hoof gurus.

Luke has been on IR diet since December 15, 2007 with a hay increase
to 2.55% due to weather. Beginning of February, I added 12mg biotin,
100mg pyridoxine and 10mg of folic acid. J-Herb was a hassle and AAKG
was not an option with what might be gray horse melanoma. I hope I'm
through with the WL soaks, which started beginning of February.

It is obvious that his heels are high and underrun, but it is what's
under the foot, which is not slam-dunk for trimming. The red coloring
on the bulbous back of the frog I imagine is bruising. My friend who
took the pictures checked his digital cushion and lateral cartilages
and we both agreed that it was very poor with you fingers just
sinking into the soft or non-existent tissue. Luke is a 23yr old Arab
that was purchased as a yearling to be the original owners next top
10 English pleasure horse, which probably sums up his lack of soft
tissue. Just checking around, I understand that the English pleasure
horses wore weighted shoes and coupled with the fact that he probably
was a stalled horse most of his life, may explain the soft tissue
problem.

As we were going through the pictures on the computer, my friend, J,
remarked that some are deceiving unless you physically had seen the
feet. She is a member and if I can't answer a question, she can chime
in. We were having trouble coming up with the right words for
describing something. At this point, I'm going to let the pictures do
the talking.

Thanks,
Cheryl

Cheryl,

I can tell very little from any of the photos. For us to really be
able to help, you need to get some focussed, high resolution pictures
so we can see clear detail of the frog/sole/bar/wall junctions, heel
height, pastern and shoulder angle etc. Although I can hazard a guess
from what I can see and your description, it is only a guess.

FWIW - the heels are too high, the wall looks weak and flared, the
sole is too full and bulging which indicates corium inflammation, the
laminar connection looks compromised, the frog looks unhealthy. I
think that the horse has a serious circulation issue because of
reduced hoof mechanism and his white line is compromised because of that.

Frankly - any external device (and I personally don't use anything
other than boots) is only as good as the trim it is attached to. Get
the trim, movement and diet sorted and most other things start to fall
into place.

I may be able to help with specific advice on trimming and other
issues if, and only if, I can see clearly what I am giving advice on.
So - why not buy yourself a digital camera and get a set of really
good pics which will help us to help you :)

Lynn

--- In ECHoof@..., Abby Bloxsom <dearab@...> wrote:

shabbonawoman wrote:

--- In ECHoof@..., "ranginui2007" <lynjwilliams@>
wrote:

And you say this is on all 4 feet?

I have the same situation in all 4 feet including the fact that

the

outer wall is gone as it comes around to make the heel. I have

just

posted photos of the front feet. In some it doesn't look like it,

but

fact is, it's gone. I pulled back the periople, and it is coming

down.

It's hard to tell from the pictures - they look like they've been
Photoshopped & there aren't any that are unretouched besides the

lateral

views.

Yes they have been. I've posted the unretouched photos today
under "Luke." Does this help out?

They sure look to me like these are heel abscess tracts that have

let

go. It's typical of an abscess that exits at the heel to shed the

outer

layer all in a big chunk. In that case, the new horn growing in is
healthy horn. The tract is going to stink a little because it's

been

closed up, but you can give a soak in something like vinegar &

water or

White Lightning or Clean Trax, & that will take care of anything

unsanitary.

-Abby

Thank you Abby and Lynn. It seems you both concur on that point. If
it stunk, I'd have never caught it (no nose I guess). As I have lost
track of time on this which might be over a year, he has never
abcessed. That being said, in August, he blew a quiet one from the
inside (lateral) left front back heel bulb and then a big time
blowout around the coronary band from the heel to mid toe, lateral
side of right hind. I was so tickled to see a bar on the lateral
front and was sick to notice it became loose and fell out in January.

I posted this in my first inquiry --"He has been on WL soaks for
since 1st week of February" in addition to "Question 2
I have been using zipper bags per Abby's article, putting the hoof
in soaking boots for 40-60 minutes. Work real well with added vet
wrap. I have noticed even with short soak making sure solution is
clean, the bag gets very warm. If so, should I be using soaking boots?

White Lightening: I started at 3 soaks a week for a week and then to
2. At what point should I stop? How long before I should see bar?

How to I trim, cast or whatever these feet for comfort?
I'm guessing that he has only the frog for support in the heel. I do
know that if I trim the quarters and level the heels to a height
which I'm guessing match, in 2 days the quarters will grow down. He
does have a natural "relief" at the quarters if one follow the height
of the sole.

Thanks,
Cheryl

shabbonawoman wrote:

--- In ECHoof@..., "ranginui2007" <lynjwilliams@> wrote:

And you say this is on all 4 feet?

I have the same situation in all 4 feet including the fact that the outer wall is gone as it comes around to make the heel. I have just posted photos of the front feet. In some it doesn't look like it, but fact is, it's gone. I pulled back the periople, and it is coming down.

It's hard to tell from the pictures - they look like they've been Photoshopped & there aren't any that are unretouched besides the lateral views.

They sure look to me like these are heel abscess tracts that have let go. It's typical of an abscess that exits at the heel to shed the outer layer all in a big chunk. In that case, the new horn growing in is healthy horn. The tract is going to stink a little because it's been closed up, but you can give a soak in something like vinegar & water or White Lightning or Clean Trax, & that will take care of anything unsanitary.

-Abby



--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com

--- In ECHoof@..., "ranginui2007" <lynjwilliams@>
wrote:

And you say this is on all 4 feet?

I have the same situation in all 4 feet including the fact that the
outer wall is gone as it comes around to make the heel. I have just
posted photos of the front feet. In some it doesn't look like it, but
fact is, it's gone. I pulled back the periople, and it is coming down.

Just some notes to go along with photos (File: Luke) frog apex on
front feet started to pull back and I cut the flaps off. In the L
front heel to toe view, right side was blown out by flash. The
surface that would have been the lateral bar is not smooth. If you
get your nose down in there, the tissue looks like cliffs or maybe
piled up tissue. It's hard to explain.

Anyway, looking forward to comments. Photo file is Luke.

Thanks,
Cheryl

--- In ECHoof@..., "ranginui2007" <lynjwilliams@...>
wrote:

Fascinating. Can you not borrow a camera Cheryl - or use a
conventional one and get the pics scanned or something?

And you say this is on all 4 feet?

Thanks, Lynn

So far I've tried everyone. I tried again with a throw-away, but the
detail is not there and I'll have to retouch them. I realize what you
are saying. A horse buddy who is also a professional photographer was
going to be in the area in a couple of weeks on her way back home and
was stopping to take photos. Unfortunately, I would be at a work
related seminar. Darned!

When the vet was out in February, I had her look at his feet. Only
response was that she had something in the office for the WL.

> The only time I have seen the bars fall out is from severe

abscessing - and they always grow back.
The soft sole is easier to explain.

That's what I figured, they'd grow back. The sole is not soft. After
exfoliating at the heel, the surface was hard.

The hoof is under constant attack from
various pathogens and if the body cannot produce sufficient quantity
and quality of horn, the pathogens destroy it faster than it can be
produced.

This was my gut feeling. Saturday was going to be the last soak as I
haven't seen any new growth coming up from what should be the base of
the bars.

He has been a pasture ornament for a number of years for various
reasons, but this summer I had him in KC LaPierre's SoleMates. The
product formed up into his feet and seemed to give him a much better
stride and got him off his toes.

Cheryl

Fascinating. Can you not borrow a camera Cheryl - or use a
conventional one and get the pics scanned or something? Without
seeing the feet it's almost impossible to comment - except to say that
as you are describing it, it is grossly abnormal. And you say this is
on all 4 feet?

The only time I have seen the bars fall out is from severe abscessing
- and they always grow back.

The soft sole is easier to explain - the corium is damaged in some way
eg under extreme pressure and unable to produce horn of sufficient
quality and/or fast enough. The hoof is under constant attack from
various pathogens and if the body cannot produce sufficient quantity
and quality of horn, the pathogens destroy it faster than it can be
produced.

But the heel/bar thing has me puzzled.

One thing I would say is that repeated topical chemical treatments are
not good - if they don't show results quickly and/or if the results
don't last you should be asking what else is going on here. Which of
course you are now doing :)

I am very wary of any advice which says that a pathological response
is 'needed' unless the person giving that advice can provide cogent
scientific explanation of WHY it is needed. Soft flaky sole is never
'needed' - it's a sign that the corium is unhealthy. Bars not growing
or falling put, heel missing - all signs of a serious problem but I am
sorry - unless you can get pictures I can do no more than speculate -
you'll simply have to get some very good resolution photos.

Lynn

Was wondering in this post got lost, overlooked or everyone is busy?
thanks,
Cheryl

--- In ECHoof@..., "shabbonawoman" <shabbonawoman@...>
wrote:

Question 1
Has anybody had the experience with white line disease destroying

the

connection of the wall and bar or am I dealing with something else?

I

don't have pictures and I mocked up a hoof to show the problem

(Luke

photo file). "A" indicates where the bar, has fallen out almost to
the bottom of the commissure which leaves the heel with no
connection. As far as I can tell, there is no medial or lateral bar
surface. "B", right as the heel turns, there is no outer wall.

There

is a raised edge where the pigmented outer wall stops. This is on

all

4 feet.

I forget the time frame, but I'm going to say a couple of years ago
Luke exfoliated sole from the heel/bar triangle forward to about
maybe ¼" forward of the end of the and bars. This left his sole way
below the heel. This flaked off like powder with just a hoof pick.
This was on 3-4 feet. Advised that it was needed for some reason

and

would grow back.

Honestly it never did. He'd get growth and flake again. He
periodically would have white line problem at quarters that seemed

to

clear up with borax soaks. This summer a friend was looking at his
feet and remarked that with the slight piling of sole at the
quarters, it was a problem involving the water line. Come November

it

raised its ugly head again and more soaking with Lysol regimen. I

did

get improvement with bar growth.

With that ugly weather all things stopped but obviously not this
problem. Sometime late February a nice bar growth on one heel
developed that brown line at the junction, became loose and fell

out

like a tooth. He has been on WL soaks for since 1st week of

February.

I don't have access to a digital camera and tried to get pictures
with a throw-a-way camera. Interestingly though, side view of his
hoof walls, though smooth to the touch, showed telltale laminitic
rings.

Luke, diagnosed IR with poorly handled blood work and does not fit
the IR profile; blood test originally done to get a baseline, has
been on the diet since December 15, 2007. Did start the J-Herb

which

he detested; stopped because of weather, AAKG stopped because of
carcinoma problem. Added 24mg of biotin in early February along

with

folic acid and B6.

Luke is IR and started out with flat, long toe and very under-run
heels. Very thick toe wall, thin walls and heels with very thin,

hard

to see bars. Right now he is sporting the best wall width that he

has

ever had. He probably is a good candidate for the casts, but I've

got

to get past this.

Question 2
I have been using zipper bags per Abby's article, putting the hoof

in

soaking boots for 40-60 minutes. Work real well with added vet

wrap.

I have noticed even with short soak making sure solution is clean,
the bag gets very warm. If so, should I be using soaking boots?

Thanks,
Cheryl

Question 1
Has anybody had the experience with white line disease destroying the
connection of the wall and bar or am I dealing with something else? I
don't have pictures and I mocked up a hoof to show the problem (Luke
photo file). "A" indicates where the bar, has fallen out almost to
the bottom of the commissure which leaves the heel with no
connection. As far as I can tell, there is no medial or lateral bar
surface. "B", right as the heel turns, there is no outer wall. There
is a raised edge where the pigmented outer wall stops. This is on all
4 feet.

I forget the time frame, but I'm going to say a couple of years ago
Luke exfoliated sole from the heel/bar triangle forward to about
maybe ¼" forward of the end of the and bars. This left his sole way
below the heel. This flaked off like powder with just a hoof pick.
This was on 3-4 feet. Advised that it was needed for some reason and
would grow back.

Honestly it never did. He'd get growth and flake again. He
periodically would have white line problem at quarters that seemed to
clear up with borax soaks. This summer a friend was looking at his
feet and remarked that with the slight piling of sole at the
quarters, it was a problem involving the water line. Come November it
raised its ugly head again and more soaking with Lysol regimen. I did
get improvement with bar growth.

With that ugly weather all things stopped but obviously not this
problem. Sometime late February a nice bar growth on one heel
developed that brown line at the junction, became loose and fell out
like a tooth. He has been on WL soaks for since 1st week of February.

I don't have access to a digital camera and tried to get pictures
with a throw-a-way camera. Interestingly though, side view of his
hoof walls, though smooth to the touch, showed telltale laminitic
rings.

Luke, diagnosed IR with poorly handled blood work and does not fit
the IR profile; blood test originally done to get a baseline, has
been on the diet since December 15, 2007. Did start the J-Herb which
he detested; stopped because of weather, AAKG stopped because of
carcinoma problem. Added 24mg of biotin in early February along with
folic acid and B6.

Luke is IR and started out with flat, long toe and very under-run
heels. Very thick toe wall, thin walls and heels with very thin, hard
to see bars. Right now he is sporting the best wall width that he has
ever had. He probably is a good candidate for the casts, but I've got
to get past this.

Question 2
I have been using zipper bags per Abby's article, putting the hoof in
soaking boots for 40-60 minutes. Work real well with added vet wrap.
I have noticed even with short soak making sure solution is clean,
the bag gets very warm. If so, should I be using soaking boots?

Thanks,
Cheryl