Hi Paula,
I'm so sorry to hear about your mule. I too am waiting for input from
others regarding to your question. If no one responds, you could try
posting on the "Farriers Helping Horse Owners with Laminitis" bulletin
board at http://tinyurl.com/3h5y5h . It is on the "Horseshoes <dot>
com" web site. There are a lot of farriers on this site, many with
decades of experience. Their posts are fascinating to read but I
digress. I can't think of any other place with access to so many
farriers and who has seen more hoof situations than farriers? If you
have time, please keep me informed of what you find out. I'll
certainly ask my own farrier about this when I see him in a few weeks!

Regards,

-LeeAnne
Newmarket, Ontario

Case History: http://tinyurl.com/2po9bo
Photos: http://tinyurl.com/2mdszc
All Season Muzzle Photos: http://tinyurl.com/2qkcdm

--- In ECHoof@..., "tomtriv" <Lee_Skee@...> wrote:
"Farriers Helping Horse Owners with Laminitis" bulletin

board at http://tinyurl.com/3h5y5h . It is on the "Horseshoes <dot>
com" web site. There are a lot of farriers on this site, many with
decades of experience. Their posts are fascinating to read but I
digress. I can't think of any other place with access to so many
farriers and who has seen more hoof situations than farriers? If you
have time, please keep me informed of what you find out. I'll
certainly ask my own farrier about this when I see him in a few weeks!

Regards,

-LeeAnne
Newmarket, Ontario

Wow, LeeAnne. I found the people's comments on that board to be, well,
I wouldn't want them touching a horse of mine. The opinion I walked
away with was they know everything (just ask them so them can tell you)
and you couldn't possibly have anything of value to share. I may have
just gotten on a 'bad' theme but wowsers. The one guy tried to take
Katy Watt's to task on what she would suggest (which was call the vet,
test, and get rid of the grain and soak the hay) for the owner to do. I
just found the attitude to be 'over my head' not the ideas.

Just because a farrier has seen a scenario doesn't mean they do what is
best for the horse. They do what they think is best which sometimes
doesn't help the horse because of the very attitude I read on that
list. We are all learning, whether we are owners, professionals, vets,
or even farriers.

I'll end my tirade now. But I was aghast at the attitude towards each
other...and especially toward Katy who has done so much for research.

Betsy and Annie (who is nearing the anniversary of her founder with
barefoot soundness)

Betsy, I went to that forum when Gacy foundered in 2006 looking for
help because my vet had her in wedged shoes and she became much worse
and this was all before I knew anything about natural hoof care
trimming. Boy did I get shot down when I asked questions, just
looking for help. I didn't last long on there. All attitude and
ego. JMO

Jackie and Gacy


--- In ECHoof@..., "Betsy" <inhishandsstables@...> wrote:

--- In ECHoof@..., "tomtriv" <Lee_Skee@> wrote:
"Farriers Helping Horse Owners with Laminitis" bulletin

board at http://tinyurl.com/3h5y5h . It is on the "Horseshoes

<dot>

com" web site. There are a lot of farriers on this site, many

with

decades of experience. Their posts are fascinating to read but I
digress. I can't think of any other place with access to so many
farriers and who has seen more hoof situations than farriers? If

you

have time, please keep me informed of what you find out. I'll
certainly ask my own farrier about this when I see him in a few

weeks!

Regards,

-LeeAnne
Newmarket, Ontario

Wow, LeeAnne. I found the people's comments on that board to be,

well,

I wouldn't want them touching a horse of mine. The opinion I walked
away with was they know everything (just ask them so them can tell

you)

and you couldn't possibly have anything of value to share. I may

have

just gotten on a 'bad' theme but wowsers. The one guy tried to take
Katy Watt's to task on what she would suggest (which was call the

vet,

test, and get rid of the grain and soak the hay) for the owner to

do. I

just found the attitude to be 'over my head' not the ideas.

Just because a farrier has seen a scenario doesn't mean they do

what is

best for the horse. They do what they think is best which sometimes
doesn't help the horse because of the very attitude I read on that
list. We are all learning, whether we are owners, professionals,

vets,

or even farriers.

I'll end my tirade now. But I was aghast at the attitude towards

each

other...and especially toward Katy who has done so much for

research.

Betsy and Annie (who is nearing the anniversary of her founder with
barefoot soundness)

Paula, you will find Dr. Stewart to be very helpful. He was always
on the money when I was struggling with Gacy's founder.

Jackie and Gacy


--- In ECHoof@..., repete134@... wrote:

I have a weird situation with my mule. She came up slightly lame 2

years ago

and I took her in for xrays and she was diagnosed with high

ringbone. Other

than the calcium deposit at the top joint on P2, her bone alignment

looked

good. You could also see the high ringbone from the outside by a

big lump on her

pastern. She hasn't gotten any better, actually a little

worse...so I had

her xrayed again yesterday and the xray didn't turn out real clear

but under a

different light you could see the coffin bone rotated almost

straight down.

I'm taking her in for better xrays next week but the vet also said

major

arthritis in the pastern area.

My question is.....she has NO LAMINITIS...NO SEPARATION....so how

could her

coffin bone be rotated??? I just trimmed her prior to the xray and

lowered her

heels significantly. The hoof capsule from the outside doesn't

look real

high heeled or abnormal. When I get the better xrays, I'll try and

post pictures

of her hoof and the xray. I'm just puzzled that a coffin bone

could be on

it's tip yet the white line is nice and tight and healthier than

most of them

that I see.

~Paula



**************
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.

(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)

Paula - I replied to you but my post isn't on the board so some
cybershark must have eaten it.

It's helpful to think about rotation and separation as two distinct
things - and founder as another thing again - all connected. This is
Dr Strasser's take on what happens.

Rotation is when a bone is misaligned - in the foot it's most commonly
P3 that rotates although often P3 and P2 rotate together because the
coffin joint is so tight. This can be caused by mechanical factors
which result in the heels becoming too long - through lack of wear,
heel pain that causes the horse to unload the heel, steepen the
pastern etc.

This steepened alignment causes the horse to overload its toe : two
things occur, the laminae at the toe are overstressed and the frontal
edge of the bone presses on the solar corium - reducing horn quality -
and creating space for the bone to rotate into. Rotation may exist
(and frequently does) with no visible separation (ie visible on x-ray
or at ground level). This is common in the early stages of rotation,
and in shod feet and very bare rigid feet - the hoof capsule is fixed
and the solar dome holds the bone in place. However this rigidity also
affects blood supply and shock absorption - so damage continues.

Separation is when the laminae have stretched and weakened (through
repeated minor inflammatory episodes caused by mechanical irritation
steep alignment, toe landing, lever forces from a too long toe, or
some sort of toxin etc.)

Separation may exist without rotation - eg in a horse with a very long
toe where the white line has stretched from ground level upwards, or
where the pedal bone has sunk evenly.

So, the combination of a weakened sole and a weakened laminar
structure allows the bone to descend - most commonly in the direction
of the pre-existing damage - hence the reason most classic founder
results in separation at the toe. It's a cyclical process.

Then if the horse for some reason suffers a major inflammatory episode
triggered by too much carbohydrate or a toxin - this results in
laminitis. This is far more damaging in a horse with an already
weakened sole and laminar structure.

Misalignments also place enormous strain on the joints - the body
tries to stablilise these by ossifying ligaments - and over time the
articular cartilage in the joint wears away - arthritis.

Other outcomes of a steepened hoof/pastern angle is that the wither
also moves forward and the animal cannot operate its stay apparatus
efficiently - this causes its own raft of problems.

The best thing is to get the bones back into alignment - by lowering
the heels bearing in mind that, with ossifications and possibly
arthritic changes, this may be painful. Also - if the mule got the
high heels because of unloading them to avoid pain - you need to be
aware of that.

Any chance of pictures?

Hope this helps. Other trim methods have other explanations and there
are various ways of trimming to deal with it.

Lynn


--- In ECHoof@..., repete134@... wrote:

I have a weird situation with my mule. She came up slightly lame 2

years ago

and I took her in for xrays and she was diagnosed with high

ringbone. Other

than the calcium deposit at the top joint on P2, her bone alignment

looked

good. You could also see the high ringbone from the outside by a

big lump on her

pastern. She hasn't gotten any better, actually a little worse...so

I had

her xrayed again yesterday and the xray didn't turn out real clear

but under a

different light you could see the coffin bone rotated almost

straight down.

I'm taking her in for better xrays next week but the vet also said

major

arthritis in the pastern area.

My question is.....she has NO LAMINITIS...NO SEPARATION....so how

could her

coffin bone be rotated??? I just trimmed her prior to the xray and

lowered her

heels significantly. The hoof capsule from the outside doesn't look

real

high heeled or abnormal. When I get the better xrays, I'll try and

post pictures

of her hoof and the xray. I'm just puzzled that a coffin bone could

be on

it's tip yet the white line is nice and tight and healthier than

most of them

that I see.

~Paula



**************
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.

(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)

Hi Betsy,
Yeah, some of the posters there can have a pretty harsh tone to their
words. I have learned a lot there, both about horses and people,
reading through the threads. I'm sorry you were offended.
-LeeAnne
Newmarket, Ontario

My question is.....she has NO LAMINITIS...NO SEPARATION....so how

could her

coffin bone be rotated???

Hi Paula
This may not answer your question but there is an interesting thread -
("Is this laminitis?" started by Katy Watts) on Horseshoes.com about
signs of laminitis. It talks about low grade laminitis without
lameness. I haven't read the whole thing but it at least starts out
interesting.
The url is: http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6593 or
in case that url is too big use: http://tinyurl.com/3nwsus
-LeeAnne
Newmarket, Ontario