Hi All,

I attended a David Landreville hoof trimming clinic this past weekend. I was not familiar with his work until recently. Was wondering if other members have followed his work and experimented with any of his techniques. Would appreciate your thoughts. 

Thanks much,

Connie and Falki
Manitoba Canada
Aug 2013

Connie, I was wondering that too. My Trimmer has been talking about him as well.
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Pat and Savannah

Hi Lavinia,

Wondering if you have had a chance to see David Landreville's work and your opinion? The work he does with the heel is very interesting and a new concept to me

Thank you in advance,

Connie & Falki 
Manitoba Canada
Aug 2013

Hi Connie,

I know of him but not the specifics. Do you have any links to his work and/or any specifics about what he espouses?

Thanks.

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Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support

Hi Lavinia,

Here is one of them...

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fm.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D8cr8j1lftKw%26fbclid%3DIwAR196KYneYn_J89hDwCb6u_bRk8cfRAgoEJIrADjSj9UgPKMuKPH3fYQPGQ&h=AT3Xh5wcWrQuOfKkdESt-IiLXEO6O6PUOZ12NHsOOSPFpGFiwAJ3XblWo2mjlPlvvc78J-y7WNW0GZUz_jEMCYqn8eSCnq-Wr2qB-4ze9uTf2OY6uJ93-4YZ4HHtZHPSBpfETA

Thank you in advance,

Connie & Falki
Manitoba Canada
Aug 2013

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Sherlene Klemens
Bundaberg, Qld, Australia
joined 2012

Hoping for more discussion on this topic. Concerned my trimmer will be following his trim protocol on my laminitic mare. His name is coming up a lot these days. My trimmer likes his work. I’m not sure, but I don’t think it aligns with what Lavinia says or Dr Bowker. It’s confusing and makes me worry about changes my trimmer might do that won’t be beneficial to my horses feet. Landreville trims the frog and Dr Bowker says leave it alone. Landreville isn’t dealing with laminitic feet either in his videos so don’t think we should follow his protocols. 
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Pat and Savannah

I agree with Sherlene!  As i started to watch the video, i looked at the hoof and thought 'decent hoof, but heels are to low'.  Then he starts talking about sculpting the frog.  OK, I will listen. After the frog trim, he said something like 'now i have to lower the heels to get frog on the ground'.  What Wait!  Heels are already to low.  Then he does the heel bevel thing.  I could not watch another minute of this.  He stated that he trims every 2-3 weeks. The horse is trying very hard to grow heels, and then they are chopped off every few weeks.  UUGG!  I would not recommend this type of trim for any reason.  In my business, i have have helped many lamanitic/foundered horses recover.  There is a delicate balance with lowering the heels on a founder horse. Re-aligning the heel angle and getting the break over is first.  Then you work on the bulbous toe.  This is when mark ups are so critical.

Diann Kuzma
Medford OR.
Joined 2018

I have been following David for a few years now and attending two of his clinics in the past year. He doesn't bring the heel down to the periople and in no way advocates to do so. The heel butress should always be the higher than live frog or seat of the corn. He rolls the heels to simulate nature (aka the mustang roll) on the inside as well as the outside.  Bars are brought down to the sole plane.

My mare has had soundness issues for around 5 years. I implemented all of the ECIR recommendations including the trim every two weeks and she was still not quite right and suffered with multiple abscesses (at least 40 over the last 5-6 years)and thrush each summer. This April David trimmed her for the first time. He removed a ton of dead frog. He didn't lower her heels very much because she didn't have the clearance in her seat of the corn yet.  My trimmer and I continued to use his methods on a two week schedule. He returned this September and was absolutely amazed by what he saw when he picked her foot up (see my 2019 09 29 pics) before trimming. She has been incredibly sound all summer, walks on any surface including gravel and concrete without issue. And she has not had one abscess or thrush since her first trim (where he opened up an abscess in her frog that I had been treating for about a month, it previously came out the heel but continued to fester).  She is building soft tissue in the back of her foot and she is more heel first landing than she ever has been.

We still have a way to go to continue to build soft tissue. This can take four to six years, but I am extremely happy with the results we are seeing today.  Sherlene I am so happy to hear that Pete is focussing on the back of the foot.  That is such a great quality Pete has, his willingness to continue to learn.  That is what we all need to do for our horses and I am sure glad I took this opportunity to with David. It really is the missing piece of the puzzle for Uma and I.  I encourage others to at least learn  what he is doing and make your own decisions.

I have a few friends who do his trim. They have been barefoot trimming for years. They are happy with the results they are seeing

HI Pat

While I agree with Andrea that the back half of the foot can take time to rebuild soft tissues to where nature intended them, I disagree with trimming the frog. You have recognized an improtant concept in tha trimming for caudal heel issues, is not the same as for laminitis rehab. Regardless in either case, trimming the frog should be the exception rather than the rule.

For more info including how what we do affects the horse on a cellular level, eventually affecting their comfort and hoof health, see any of Dr Bowker's NO Laminitis! Conference proceedings on www.ecirhorse.org. Understanding Laminitis: How We View Normal Function from 2017 addresses both caudal issues (aka "Navicular syndrome) and Lamintis. Download is free  https://www.ecirhorse.org/proceedings-2017.php


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 

More Pat....  In his video, the first horse, he's dealing with high low syndrome. Very different from what I believe to be your situation Pat.   High/low is brought on in the majority of cases by unrecognized and unresolved  trimming issues sometimes years in the making.  He menitons that in the two vids I was able to see.

I have to say, there are more concepts than I first suspected with which I would agree. Good mapping examples, IMO. The question I would have is, does he have to go back and do that same kind work at every trim.  She should be able to maintain her foot mostly correctly without removing the frog or opening central sulcus, at every trim if she has at least some abrasive surface in her environment. I'm pretty sure Bowker might say he could bring the hoof wall back further into the white line. Bowker recommends 60% of the foot be in the back half.

Trimming open the sulcus every two and half weeks should not be necessary when the hoof wall has grown tightly around the coffin bone, or as Bowker says, allowing hoof wall to "equilibrate" around the internal structures and the horse to redevelope the internal structures as needed. (See Bowker on Vascular Cushion of the Frog.) The central sulcus should move to be open and centered in order for the internal structures to function as they should. You may have to back up heels and toe. A lot will depend on how the horse moves and how much work is needed on her internal structures. 

In the second video, he questions why the gelding has a skinny frog.  If he's trimming it in the same manner every two weeks, I would submit that as a possible cause.

Just some background for street cred that some of you know already: I have worked with Dr Bowker for  some 15 years, assisted with his NO Lamintis! proceedings, got to spend three days with him --  along with Lavinia, Sherry and Dr Kellon -- while we rough filmed the upcoming ECIR Trim film.  I mostly trim my own horses. I have a great farrier who helps to keep me out of trouble.

So Pat....here's my take for your horses.  There are good thing you can learn here, even though he's not working on laminitis cases. Trimming every two weeks, allowing the back of the foot as well as allowing good tight wall growth are good things.  I would be very wary of trimming frogs every two to two-and-a-half weeks. I'd be shooting for a 60 percent behind the widest part of the foot. It takes time to develop this.

Thanks for sharing the links and for the conversation.
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Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 

I am a professional trimmer and I have been following David Landreville’s work for a couple of years. I feel like he has really brought attention to the development of the caudal foot and to a shorter trim cycle. I was skeptical about the trim cycle so early on in watching him, I put my own horses on a three week trim cycle and I saw good feet develop further into great feet. I always had my rehab horses on short trim cycles but this really changed my views on all horses. 

He does not cut into live sole even and especially at the heel. He does an excellent job of balancing the foot and keeping it in balance. He rockers the heels as does Pete Ramey and I believe Paige Poss does as well based on all of her hoof dissections. The reasons many of the heels look low to the ground is that he has developed the digital cushion, frog and lateral cartilage so that they are the majority of the back of the foot, not the wall itself. 

That said, he disagrees with Dr. Bowker on the frog. I personally have landed in the middle of the two. Because of David’s work, I do a lot more inspection of the frog and have found more cases where the frog is about to shed and there are gaps between the layers of new frog and shedding frog that can be a thrush breeding ground and I remove more of the upper layer than I used to rather than waiting for it to shed off on its own. I also make sure the frog is not protruding past the wall height and often remove very hard portions right at the back in the summer with a rasp. How much frog I’m having to touch varies with our seasons. I live in Western WA where we are quite wet most of the year and have dry desert feet for a few months in the summer. David claims he is only removing the dead portions of the frog but I feel he invadeds healthy frog too. 

I have clients who do not make any nutritional changes at all, have their horses on a large pasture 24/7 and putting those horses on a 3 or 4 week rotation has mechanically improved their feet, sometimes drastically. 

That’s my 2 cents worth. 

Jodie J Wa
2007

Thank you all for sharing your experiences and thoughts regarding David's trim. Interesting to read various points of view both positive and negative and what has worked for people.

Thanks much,

Connie & Falki
Manitoba Canada
Aug 2013

Very eloquently said!

I have been using David for over a year now and have seen positive results on my horses badly conformed feet. He has been cautiously and slowly lowering his heels to the correct height. 

Qharma is now starting to land heel first without a shortened stride. I’m only starting to learn about barefoot trims so I’m no expert but I can see the results in my horse.

It took me a while to understand David’s method but he is very patient with me and teaches eloquently and passionately. He is not afraid to tell you what he has learned from his mistakes and leaves his ego at the door. 

From my personal experience I highly recommend him and his method.