Thanks for all the great info on hind end pain. While it was targeted
towards another horse, it really helped me. I've been stressing over
what to do since my gelding has been getting continually more sore
since his last 2 trims. And it is back end muscle soreness, very
similiar to how he reacted when he had a laminitic attach 3 years ago.
However I'm very certain this isn't laminitis, no heat, no pulses, no
sensitivity to the front feet. But he has gradually developed a slight
swelling on his back, does not want to trot, and really seems stiff
(almost tied up) in his back end. I had xrays done 2 weeks ago and his
coffin bone position is better than 3 years ago, also there is no (or
very minimal lipping on the P-3 like before). He has a dished foot and
high heels which are being addressed very gradually. That's why he has
the rocker shoe on. This shoe has been absolutely wonderful except for
the last two trims, when he's been gradually getting stiffer in the
back-end.
I've posted the xrays if anyone has time to look at them. Also, I'm
trying to see if I can arrange a constant turnout instead of stall. My
thinking is moving around would help decrease the stiffness. Is that
correct.
Sandi

Here's the link to the photos. (if it doesn't work it's under Cody)

http://pets.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/browse/bd37?c=

Also, do you think there is adequate sole depth?

Sandi

Hi Sandi,

Were these x-rays taken of him standing squarely in his 'normal' stance
on a flat surface, or was the leg unweighted in some way? And is the
shoe a smooth upwards curve from about the quarters forward? [I'm not
sure what I'm seeing <G>]. Although he may not have had any obvious
laminitic episodes since 3 years ago, the rotation on the x-rays
suggests that he may have had further attacks. However, the upper wall
looks to be more closely attached, which might be due to the change to
the rocker shoe if that was done about six months ago.

If this is his 'normal' stance, and the shoes are a smooth curve, then I
can imagine that it would be very difficult for him to use his stay
apparatus to 'lock' his front legs and he will probably be using
considerable muscle tension to hold himself up. He may also be
transferring a lot of his weight backwards into his hindquarters. The
angle down through the hoof pastern axis is much steeper than I'd like
to see as well (if he was fully weighted), which suggests that despite
the rotation he is trying to keep his weight off his heels. If he is,
then this is forcing him to stand on an unstable curve in the shoe and
so he has to use even more muscle strength to stay stable... Hmm - has
the ground in your area hardened up in the last two months? If so, then
the shoes wouldn't be able to bite in as much, and he would be using
more muscle exertion and transferring more weight to the hind quarters,
which might explain part of the issue you're seeing.

I'm also taking a stab that the angle on the toes of the hind feet is
fairly shallow and they may be bull-nosed, indicating that he could have
negative plane coffin bones (i.e. that the hind coffin bones are tipped
backwards instead of slightly forwards). I see more than I'd like of
this, especially where the front heels are quite tall and there is hind
end stiffness / pain.

Movement is always a good thing if the horse is up for it - using the
joints helps keep them supple, the exercise helps with circulation and
burns excess energy, etc. If he is less stiff after half an hour out
moving, then definitely get him more turnout if you can. I try to avoid
restricting a horses movement except for short periods like trimming
<G>. I don't stable anything (not even the skinny old girl, since she
has made her thoughts on that VERY clear), and the wild Kaimanawa
fillies were released from the round pen after a couple of days because
I couldn't stand to see them penned up <G>. Of course, I prefer NOT to
force a horse to move if he really doesn't want to, either <G>.

Of course, it's possible that the cause of the stiffness is related to
balance or an underlying metabolic issue, in which case more movement
won't fix it totally.

I'd like to see photos of all four feet if possible, plus body shots
showing him in his normal stance, since that would help us identify what
might be going on instead of making guesses <G>.

Claire Vale
New Zealand
'barefoot' trimmer

---- Claire Vale <clairevale@...> wrote:

If this is his 'normal' stance, and the shoes are a smooth curve, then I
can imagine that it would be very difficult for him to use his stay
apparatus to 'lock' his front legs and he will probably be using
considerable muscle tension to hold himself up.

I agree.

Of course, it's possible that the cause of the stiffness is related to
balance or an underlying metabolic issue, in which case more movement
won't fix it totally.

I agree.

I'd like to see photos of all four feet if possible, plus body shots
showing him in his normal stance, since that would help us identify what
might be going on instead of making guesses <G>.

And I agree again!


Been way out of touch on this list (Claire and John do such a good job holding down the fort!) but dropping in tonight to say that I think this is likely a multifactorial problem, and that the hind end pain is really a symptom of whatever the other factors are that are at work.

-Abby

www.advantedgeconsulting.com

Thanks Claire. Sure sounds like you "know" my horse!

Were these x-rays taken of him standing squarely in his 'normal'

stance on a flat surface, or was the leg unweighted in some way?
And is the shoe a smooth upwards curve from about the quarters
forward? [I'm not sure what I'm seeing <G>].

Looks to me like you are seeing pretty good. He is standing on
blocks (both front feet at the same time) that are about 3" tall so
that the xray machine could get a straight on view. I was thinking
the upper bones looked to be at pretty weird angles...I should have
mentioned this but I was having a duh.... moment.

It is a full rocker. slightly in the back 3/4 but there is some
curving. There's also rails on it. It's aluminum. I'll get a picture
of it.

if the rocker shoe if that was done about six months ago.

It was 4 months ago, however I've noticed his foot is really
growing! I was reading that this may be a result of increased
circulation.

apparatus to 'lock' his front legs and he will probably be using
considerable muscle tension to hold himself up. He may also be
transferring a lot of his weight backwards into his hindquarters.

Cody is over at the knee on both front legs. Hmm........

I'm also taking a stab that the angle on the toes of the hind feet

is fairly shallow and they may be bull-nosed, indicating that he
could have negative plane coffin bones (i.e. that the hind coffin
bones are tipped backwards instead of slightly forwards). I see
more than I'd like of this, especially where the front heels are
quite tall and there is hind end stiffness / pain.

That's really interesing. He is barefoot on the back and does tend
to wear a bullnose on those feet. (he did have plates on and these
were pulled 4 months ago)

balance or an underlying metabolic issue, in which case more

movement won't fix it totally.

FYI, he is Insulin Resistance and on adjusted food with no grazing.
(he gets turned out in the dry riding areas). Ground is fairly soft
in the lower ring but harder in the upper ring. I'll avoid that one.

He's currently on pergolide however Dr. Kellon thinks it's highly
unlikely he is Cushings. They did the BET test which has a lot of
false positives. However I haven't had the $$$ or the perserverence
to get the vet to do the blood work with the correct handling.
(that's another story).

I'll get some shots ASAP. Both I and the barn manager noticed that
his hind end seems slightly higher than his front right now.

Here's a picture from 5/05 however he's not moving like this right
now.

http://pets.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/photos/browse/56
14

Also, here's his original xrays from 2005, he is standing flat with
front feet fully loaded here.

http://pets.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/photos/browse/3c
a8

Thanks so much, I really appreciate your time!

Sandi in WV

Thanks guys for all the support.
Your posts helped me confirm that "something" is not right here.
Thanks Claire/Abby/John, even with my limited knowledge I'm feeling
that there's too much "mechanics" here also, or it's been applied wrong
and is hindering things. FYI, his xrays were taken with him on blocks
so the foot angles are weird. (maybe if the shoe was flat it wouldn't
have been so bad)
My friends are going to a large horse show this weekend so Cody
is "hitching" a ride to go to another farrier/vet. We'll see what
happens from there.

I'm not sure who did the post on being your horses advocate but that's
helped me quite a bit. I'm normally a wimp when it comes to dealing
with the vet/farrier. But you are right, Cody has not one else to speak
up for him. Both my vet and farrier are great people. But my vet has
older xray equipment and the farrier seems to be really nervous about
reading the xrays. So it's time for a new approach.

Thanks, I'll let you know what the approach is.

Sandi