Topics

Hind leg pain


maxi
 

I had my Welsh x cob trimmed by a new farrier 10 days' ago as regular
chap never showed up. New farrier said William's feet were really
high at the heels and needed about 4" off to lower into the correct
position. William is IR and laminitic. He is on diet control (high
fibre, low starch nuts) and haylage since I can't get old hay but he
seems fine on this regime, still underweight I think.
Farrier took 1 1/2inches off heel and sloughed off old sole and
shortened toes. He said he would be sore for a while as the position
of his feet had been wrong for a long time. Crippled is more like
it! He is so unsteady now and is so sore, and his hind legs keep
clicking when he moves awkwardly around. He is on box rest in deep
shavings. The farrier says he needs to take the heels down
gradually - is this correct? And, would taking 1 1/2" off cause this
much pain?
I have put him on Hyarolonic acid (Lubri-Syn USA)4 days ago to try
and help his stiff joints but is there anything else I can do to help
him?
Sorry for so many questions. I tried to post the pictures of
William's trimmed feet but my PC said the format was unacceptable.
I'm not PC literate enough to work out another way!
His pulses yesterday were 56 per minute, not bounding.
Thank you so much for any help, please.
Maxi


Claire Vale <clairevale@...>
 

Hi Maxi,

If four inches needs to come off Williams heels, then they must be
massively long in comparison to a 'normal' hoof. On the other hand,
that doesn't necessarily mean that this is too long for William
(although I'm imagining that it is at least to some degree), since if he
has remodelling to the coffin bone that can make a big difference to the
hoof capsule shape and 'correct' balance for the individual horse.

Have you had x-rays taken recently? That will show you exactly what is
going on inside his hooves and tell you a lot about what you can expect
his feet to look like when they're as healthy as they can be given his
circumstances. It may be that Yes, his heels do need to come down a
lot, probably with other rebalancing as well since heels don't often
just grow long with everything else being fine <G>. If he really does
need those heels down for good hoof function, then it may be that they
have to be snuck down very slowly to give him time to adapt.

Taking off 1 1/2 inches in a single trimming is quite a big change.
Sometimes horses will be just fine with that, however it sounds like
William isn't a happy camper and the changes in angles and lengths may
be more than he is ready for at the moment. How long are the heels in
relation to the live sole in the seat of corn? Are they longer than
that (i.e. the heel wall is sticking out above the level of the sole)
and if so how much, level with the live sole, or did the farrier
actually trim into the live sole in order to bring the heels down and if
so how much?

Does your usual farrier usually scrape out the old dead sole? Did the
new farrier trim into live sole at all as he cleaned out the sole? It
might be that his pain is simply due to overstimulation of the sole
after his usual protective layer was removed. Some horses just don't
like having that old dead sole scraped out.

Bringing the toes back can also make a big change to the internal
balance of the hooves. When the breakover point is moved back, the
changes automatically make the horse use the rear of the hoof (the heels
and digital cushion) more - while this is exactly what is wanted in the
long term, in the short term it may mean that the horse is using the
heels more than they are ready for just yet. That can cause the digital
cushion to be overloaded and sore. It's even possible that the digital
cushion is just fine, however there could be a fungal infection hiding
deep in the frog that is painful now that he is using his heels more.

Overall, it's impossible to make a definitive diagnosis on what is
causing William's woes, without more information.

Pulses of 56bpm is a bit fast (a 'normal' horse is generally about 30 -
40 bpm), and does tend to indicate pain / stress, which isn't surprising
since he's so sore. Right now, the key thing is to make him as
comfortable as possible. I'd avoid Bute unless you really have to,
given it's side effects, however something like Devils Claw could be
useful, as might Jiaogulan. I'd double check on those with someone more
familiar with their effects on IR and Cushings than I am though, first
<G>. Simply padding his feet and/or keeping him on a soft surface may
make him much happier. The joint supplement may help if it is the joints
causing problems - a bit of MSM may also help.

Photos - was the trouble with the format when you tried to upload them
to the group's photos page? If so, then it may be that they aren't jpg
format, which is what Yahoo wants. If you aren't sure how to change
them, you can email them to me and I'll change them and load them up for
you.

Claire Vale
New Zealand

-----Original Message-----
From: ECHoof@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ECHoof@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of maxi
Sent: Sunday, 1 July 2007 9:06 a.m.
To: ECHoof@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ECHoof] Hind leg pain

I had my Welsh x cob trimmed by a new farrier 10 days' ago as regular
chap never showed up. New farrier said William's feet were really
high at the heels and needed about 4" off to lower into the correct
position. William is IR and laminitic. He is on diet control (high
fibre, low starch nuts) and haylage since I can't get old hay but he
seems fine on this regime, still underweight I think.
Farrier took 1 1/2inches off heel and sloughed off old sole and
shortened toes. He said he would be sore for a while as the position
of his feet had been wrong for a long time. Crippled is more like
it! He is so unsteady now and is so sore, and his hind legs keep
clicking when he moves awkwardly around. He is on box rest in deep
shavings. The farrier says he needs to take the heels down
gradually - is this correct? And, would taking 1 1/2" off cause this
much pain?
I have put him on Hyarolonic acid (Lubri-Syn USA)4 days ago to try
and help his stiff joints but is there anything else I can do to help
him?
Sorry for so many questions. I tried to post the pictures of
William's trimmed feet but my PC said the format was unacceptable.
I'm not PC literate enough to work out another way!
His pulses yesterday were 56 per minute, not bounding.
Thank you so much for any help, please.
Maxi


J Amick
 

These are alot of changes to throw at a horse at one time.   Perhaps the 4"  are needed
but only xrays would have entitled the removal of that much foot for me.   

In the past I have seen horses nearly crippled after adding (with epoxy) or removing just 3/8"  of heel.  That is equivelent to nearly a 4 degree change.   Sore yes,  but  I think in your case you used the right word... Crippled.... 

Get some liniment, (Sore no more,  Horse Absorbine Jr,  Vetrolin)  and start rubbing
those tendons and muscles in the hind legs  and across the rump and back,  up to the wither area. Be generous with the liniment.     He is sore EVERYWHERE  as all the muscles are trying to compensate for the radical changes in the feet.     To get a grip on how  this horse feels,  imagine you wearing high heels to work every day for even just a year,  and then you retired wearing sneakers now.    Well  the back of your calves will kill you trying to stretch out immediately.   Follow?   

 A word of caution here.    I have been around horses for 40+ years and have been there on site  for every farrier visit for every horse of mine.    YOU  need to keep this in mind for your mount.     Only you can speak for your horse's  welfare and health,  and many "professionals"   think they know it all.     YOU  make them tell you and show you prior to doing anything on your horse that is radical in your opinion.    If you don't understand it and don't feel OK (gut feeling) have  them explain it again,  and tell them you'd  like to think and research this idea.    YOU   decide if it is in the best interest and health for  your horse.   Do NOT  be afraid to ask additional questions and have them give you the reasoning behind their suggested  treatment.  Don't be  embarrassed  to say NO,  we aren't going to do that.  Or  I'd  like to think this over first.      Be it a farrier,  a vet,  a good friend,  a rolfer,  I don't care who it is;   just say NO.    Don't be ridiculed  by them either.    Oh yes this happens,  I have personally experienced this.    Throughout  all of this hassle,  you never forget that  only YOU  can speak for  YOUR   horse.    Get second
opinions if necessary,  or come on the list and ask.    There is no such thing as a stupid
question.    OK?  

I have asked some "pros"  to please leave my barn.  Paid them for the call,  and said your
services are no longer needed here.   Stand up and let em have it..... 

Bear in mind  that you and your horses suffer the consequences for a long time if you
allow this to take place against your better judgement.   The "pro"  drives down the road
to the next farm call.     NEVER  count yourself as a stupid animal owner.   YOU  know
this horse better than anyone else on the face of the earth;  so be wise.

I hope this helps you,  pls keep us informed.
Judy-PA



maxi wrote:

I had my Welsh x cob trimmed by a new farrier 10 days' ago as regular
chap never showed up. New farrier said William's feet were really
high at the heels and needed about 4" off to lower into the correct
position.
Farrier took 1 1/2inches off heel and sloughed off old sole and
shortened toes.





maxi
 

Dear Clare
I can't thank you enough for all your comments, they have helped me sort out
maybe some of the reasons Why Will is so sore. I have a physio coming
tonight at 8pm so I hope she can alleviate some muscle soreness. I've
replied to most of your queries, but I can't measure the heel to live sole
yet as I need somebody to help, but will let you know asap.
This group is so fantastic - such a relief to know you and others are out
there for us all! Thank you again Clare.

"Have you had x-rays taken recently?"

Had last ones taken end of March 2007 and vet will come next time new
farrier is here on 18 July. Will send them to you if I can't get my son to
help me as they are not in jpg. Thank you.


"If he does trim heels down for good hoof function...probably with other
rebalancing"

Yes, farrier said he must re-align toes to match - he drew me pictures of
what he was going to try to achieve.


"...down very slowly to give him time to adapt.."

Yes, farrier said he would do it slowly, but I agree with you, 1½" is a lot
to take off first time


"How long are the heels in relation to the live sole?" - will get asap

"Did the farrier trim into the live sole to bring the heels down?"
Yes, quite a lot


"Does the usual farrier trim out the dead sole?"

No, he just takes off a small amount with a chisel, then trims rest of hoof
to suit


"Did the new farrier trim into the new live sole?"

Yes, a lot, until he had taken out all the muck as William has thrush.
Farrier said this was because
he hadn't been trimmed deep enough. I was spraying with purple spray, but
farrier said it wouldn't have made any difference to cleansing the bacteria
if the trim wasn't satisfactory


"Avoid bute"

He isn't on any bute at all, but very occasionally I give him ½ sachet of
Danilon twice a day for one day only. I agree with you, I don't want to
give bute or any other painkillers long-term because of the side-effects.

Photos - I will get son to help me.

Maxi
From: ECHoof@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ECHoof@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Claire Vale
Sent: 02 July 2007 08:08
To: ECHoof@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [ECHoof] Hind leg pain

Hi Maxi,

If four inches needs to come off Williams heels, then they must be
massively long in comparison to a 'normal' hoof. On the other hand,
that doesn't necessarily mean that this is too long for William
(although I'm imagining that it is at least to some degree), since if he
has remodelling to the coffin bone that can make a big difference to the
hoof capsule shape and 'correct' balance for the individual horse.

Have you had x-rays taken recently? That will show you exactly what is
going on inside his hooves and tell you a lot about what you can expect
his feet to look like when they're as healthy as they can be given his
circumstances. It may be that Yes, his heels do need to come down a
lot, probably with other rebalancing as well since heels don't often
just grow long with everything else being fine <G>. If he really does
need those heels down for good hoof function, then it may be that they
have to be snuck down very slowly to give him time to adapt.

Taking off 1 1/2 inches in a single trimming is quite a big change.
Sometimes horses will be just fine with that, however it sounds like
William isn't a happy camper and the changes in angles and lengths may
be more than he is ready for at the moment. How long are the heels in
relation to the live sole in the seat of corn? Are they longer than
that (i.e. the heel wall is sticking out above the level of the sole)
and if so how much, level with the live sole, or did the farrier
actually trim into the live sole in order to bring the heels down and if
so how much?

Does your usual farrier usually scrape out the old dead sole? Did the
new farrier trim into live sole at all as he cleaned out the sole? It
might be that his pain is simply due to overstimulation of the sole
after his usual protective layer was removed. Some horses just don't
like having that old dead sole scraped out.

Bringing the toes back can also make a big change to the internal
balance of the hooves. When the breakover point is moved back, the
changes automatically make the horse use the rear of the hoof (the heels
and digital cushion) more - while this is exactly what is wanted in the
long term, in the short term it may mean that the horse is using the
heels more than they are ready for just yet. That can cause the digital
cushion to be overloaded and sore. It's even possible that the digital
cushion is just fine, however there could be a fungal infection hiding
deep in the frog that is painful now that he is using his heels more.

Overall, it's impossible to make a definitive diagnosis on what is
causing William's woes, without more information.

Pulses of 56bpm is a bit fast (a 'normal' horse is generally about 30 -
40 bpm), and does tend to indicate pain / stress, which isn't surprising
since he's so sore. Right now, the key thing is to make him as
comfortable as possible. I'd avoid Bute unless you really have to,
given it's side effects, however something like Devils Claw could be
useful, as might Jiaogulan. I'd double check on those with someone more
familiar with their effects on IR and Cushings than I am though, first
<G>. Simply padding his feet and/or keeping him on a soft surface may
make him much happier. The joint supplement may help if it is the joints
causing problems - a bit of MSM may also help.

Photos - was the trouble with the format when you tried to upload them
to the group's photos page? If so, then it may be that they aren't jpg
format, which is what Yahoo wants. If you aren't sure how to change
them, you can email them to me and I'll change them and load them up for
you.

Claire Vale
New Zealand

-----Original Message-----
From: ECHoof@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ECHoof%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:ECHoof@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ECHoof%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of maxi
Sent: Sunday, 1 July 2007 9:06 a.m.
To: ECHoof@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ECHoof%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [ECHoof] Hind leg pain

I had my Welsh x cob trimmed by a new farrier 10 days' ago as regular
chap never showed up. New farrier said William's feet were really
high at the heels and needed about 4" off to lower into the correct
position. William is IR and laminitic. He is on diet control (high
fibre, low starch nuts) and haylage since I can't get old hay but he
seems fine on this regime, still underweight I think.
Farrier took 1 1/2inches off heel and sloughed off old sole and
shortened toes. He said he would be sore for a while as the position
of his feet had been wrong for a long time. Crippled is more like
it! He is so unsteady now and is so sore, and his hind legs keep
clicking when he moves awkwardly around. He is on box rest in deep
shavings. The farrier says he needs to take the heels down
gradually - is this correct? And, would taking 1 1/2" off cause this
much pain?
I have put him on Hyarolonic acid (Lubri-Syn USA)4 days ago to try
and help his stiff joints but is there anything else I can do to help
him?
Sorry for so many questions. I tried to post the pictures of
William's trimmed feet but my PC said the format was unacceptable.
I'm not PC literate enough to work out another way!
His pulses yesterday were 56 per minute, not bounding.
Thank you so much for any help, please.
Maxi


Nancy Collins <threecatfarm@...>
 

Hi Maxi -

In addition to the great ideas you’ve been given, I also wanted to offer an idea that came up on the list a long time ago that I have used when trying to help Beau with hind end muscle pain.  That is, heat up towels either dry or wet heat.  I used dry because it was winter time, heating them in the dryer then bringing them to the barn.  Place the towels over the rump and them put a plastic/vinyl table cloth over the towels which will help keep the heat in.

If you have to travel far to the barn, you could use one of those carriers that hold heat in for pizza or pot luck dinners, ya know?

The other thing we did – and I know some folks might have a differing opinion on this – was to use pads/foam to help elevate the heels just a bit. At the time I was using Osha/TLOP foam but the same thing could be made with the anti-fatigue mats (Lowe’s/Home Depot), I think. If you look in the Photos file, pads and boots folder, you will see the reverse founder pads that I mean.

When we did this for Beau to help with tendon/muscle relaxing, the relief was immediate.  But it’s different from rails and wedges used with most shoes because it’s soft and giving with the animal’s weight.  I would only use them periodically, with rehab type boots – maybe a few hours out of the day – to give him relief.  This and the suggestions Judy and Claire have given, as well as muscle therapy really helped him come through.

About the thrush – Pete Ramey is suggesting a remedy that I tried recently with good results.  He uses a 50/50 mix of triple anitbiotic ointment and athletes foot cream.  Put it in a 60 cc syringe and squeeze into the crevices.   The cream does not kill live tissue (which you probably know gives the bacteria more food to eat) and the syringe really gets the stuff in there.   One of my guys was getting a problem because I let his feet get out of hand and this cleared it up well.

Hope William is feeling better today!

Nancy C and Beau and Gabe in NH




On 7/2/07 8:53 AM, "J Amick" wrote:


 
 

These are alot of changes to throw at a horse at one time.   Perhaps the 4"  are needed
but only xrays would have entitled the removal of that much foot for me.    

In the past I have seen horses nearly crippled after adding (with epoxy) or removing just 3/8"  of heel.  That is equivelent to nearly a 4 degree change.   Sore yes,  but  I think in your case you used the right word... Crippled....  

Get some liniment, (Sore no more,  Horse Absorbine Jr,  Vetrolin)  and start rubbing
those tendons and muscles in the hind legs  and across the rump and back,  up to the wither area. Be generous with the liniment.     He is sore EVERYWHERE  as all the muscles are trying to compensate for the radical changes in the feet.     To get a grip on how  this horse feels,  imagine you wearing high heels to work every day for even just a year,  and then you retired wearing sneakers now.    Well  the back of your calves will kill you trying to stretch out immediately.  Follow?    

 A word of caution here.    I have been around horses for 40+ years and have been there on site  for every farrier visit for every horse of mine.    YOU  need to keep this in mind for your mount.     Only you can speak for your horse's  welfare and health,  and many "professionals"   think they know it all.     YOU  make them tell you and show you prior to doing anything on your horse that is radical in your opinion.    If you don't understand it and don't feel OK (gut feeling) have  them explain it again,  and tell them you'd  like to think and research this idea.    YOU   decide if it is in the best interest and health for  your horse.   Do NOT  be afraid to ask additional questions and have them give you the reasoning behind their suggested  treatment.  Don't be  embarrassed  to say NO,  we aren't going to do that.  Or  I'd  like to think this over first.      Be it a farrier,  a vet,  a good friend,  a rolfer,  I don't care who it is;  just say NO.    Don't be ridiculed  by them either.    Oh yes this happens,  I have personally experienced this.    Throughout  all of this hassle,  you never forget that  only YOU  can speak for  YOUR  horse.    Get second
opinions if necessary,  or come on the list and ask.    There is no such thing as a stupid
question.    OK?   

I have asked some "pros"  to please leave my barn.  Paid them for the call,  and said your
services are no longer needed here.   Stand up and let em have it.....

Bear in mind  that you and your horses suffer the consequences for a long time if you
allow this to take place against your better judgement.   The "pro" drives down the road
to the next farm call.     NEVER  count yourself as a stupid animal owner.   YOU  know
this horse better than anyone else on the face of the earth;  so be wise.

I hope this helps you,  pls keep us informed.
Judy-PA



maxi wrote:

 

I had my Welsh x cob trimmed by a new farrier 10 days' ago as regular
chap never showed up. New farrier said William's feet were really
high at the heels and needed about 4" off to lower into the correct
position.
Farrier took 1 1/2inches off heel and sloughed off old sole and
shortened toes.
 
  
   
  




  

    


J Amick
 

Nancy's  post remined me of a treatment that I use in the winter...  dah...    Had a brain fart since it's now summer!  LOL. 

Use the receipe  that is on the back of the Horse liniment Absorbine bottle with vinegar and water added.     Put that all over his rump and down the sides.    Then take a NASA  survival blanket (
 (silver thin like foil)   you can get at Walmart of any sports store.    Put that over the liniment,  and it
creates  heat.    It is  the NON-electric  blanket that you just created.....    Wonderful for the horse.
Judy-PA


Nancy Collins wrote:

Hi Maxi -

In addition to the great ideas you’ve been given, I also wanted to offer an idea that came up on the list a long time ago that I have used when trying to help Beau with hind end muscle pain.  That is, heat up towels either dry or wet heat.  I used dry because it was winter time, heating them in the dryer then bringing them to the barn.  Place the towels over the rump and them put a plastic/vinyl table cloth over the towels which will help keep the heat in.




No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.14/885 - Release Date: 7/3/2007 10:02 AM


maxi
 

Dear Judy, Nancy, Claire

So many great ideas from you all to help me help my boy! 

The hot towels would be great too as I am ten steps away from his barn.  I think I will use dry as it’s cold here – I am in UK (forgot to say, sorry).  We have enough rain to fill the Amazon river at the moment and William feels the cold.

I will try to get anti-fatigue mats to elevate his heels a bit for maybe short periods.

Judy – I take on board all you said about asking questions and yes, I have felt intimidated by some of their “superior” attitudes.  They have a nickname from me – U.T.O.A.  (hope you can work that one out!)  I will be asking the pros what they are doing specific things for – you are SO right, it is our beloved animals that suffer when we don’t question their actions.  Thanks for making me feel strong and able to do this.

A physio came last night and stretched and pulled William’s muscles, legs, neck – everything that could move more or less and today he walked up and down and up again in the small paddock (my garden actually) .  He is still very sore, but he did not lie down so much, only once in 2 ½ hours.

Yes, he is feeling a bit better Nancy, thanks.

It’s funny that my Shetland Tommy has Cushings and is fed the same diet regime as William, yet he is sound and non laminitic.  Since he has been on the DDT his fat pads above his eyes have disappeared and he is so sprightly.  This is the first year he hasn’t shed his coat though and he still has the fat around his dock, but the DDT works really great for him.

I will keep you up to date and ask more questions if I get a problem.  THANK YOU ALL AGAIN.

Maxi & William

 

 

From: ECHoof@... [mailto:ECHoof@...] On Behalf Of Nancy Collins
Sent: 04 July 2007 15:02
To: ECHoof
Subject: Re: [ECHoof] Hind leg pain

 

Hi Maxi -

In addition to the great ideas you’ve been given, I also wanted to offer an idea that came up on the list a long time ago that I have used when trying to help Beau with hind end muscle pain.  That is, heat up towels either dry or wet heat.  I used dry because it was winter time, heating them in the dryer then bringing them to the barn.  Place the towels over the rump and them put a plastic/vinyl table cloth over the towels which will help keep the heat in.

If you have to travel far to the barn, you could use one of those carriers that hold heat in for pizza or pot luck dinners, ya know?

The other thing we did – and I know some folks might have a differing opinion on this – was to use pads/foam to help elevate the heels just a bit. At the time I was using Osha/TLOP foam but the same thing could be made with the anti-fatigue mats (Lowe’s/Home Depot), I think. If you look in the Photos file, pads and boots folder, you will see the reverse founder pads that I mean.

When we did this for Beau to help with tendon/muscle relaxing, the relief was immediate.  But it’s different from rails and wedges used with most shoes because it’s soft and giving with the animal’s weight.  I would only use them periodically, with rehab type boots – maybe a few hours out of the day – to give him relief.  This and the suggestions Judy and Claire have given, as well as muscle therapy really helped him come through.

About the thrush – Pete Ramey is suggesting a remedy that I tried recently with good results.  He uses a 50/50 mix of triple anitbiotic ointment and athletes foot cream.  Put it in a 60 cc syringe and squeeze into the crevices.   The cream does not kill live tissue (which you probably know gives the bacteria more food to eat) and the syringe really gets the stuff in there.   One of my guys was getting a problem because I let his feet get out of hand and this cleared it up well.

Hope William is feeling better today!

Nancy C and Beau and Gabe in NH




On 7/2/07 8:53 AM, "J Amick" wrote:


 
 

These are alot of changes to throw at a horse at one time.   Perhaps the 4"  are needed
but only xrays would have entitled the removal of that much foot for me.    

In the past I have seen horses nearly crippled after adding (with epoxy) or removing just 3/8"  of heel.  That is equivelent to nearly a 4 degree change.   Sore yes,  but  I think in your case you used the right word... Crippled....  

Get some liniment, (Sore no more,  Horse Absorbine Jr,  Vetrolin)  and start rubbing
those tendons and muscles in the hind legs  and across the rump and back,  up to the wither area. Be generous with the liniment.     He is sore EVERYWHERE  as all the muscles are trying to compensate for the radical changes in the feet.     To get a grip on how  this horse feels,  imagine you wearing high heels to work every day for even just a year,  and then you retired wearing sneakers now.    Well  the back of your calves will kill you trying to stretch out immediately.  Follow?    

 A word of caution here.    I have been around horses for 40+ years and have been there on site  for every farrier visit for every horse of mine.    YOU  need to keep this in mind for your mount.     Only you can speak for your horse's  welfare and health,  and many "professionals"   think they know it all.     YOU  make them tell you and show you prior to doing anything on your horse that is radical in your opinion.    If you don't understand it and don't feel OK (gut feeling) have  them explain it again,  and tell them you'd  like to think and research this idea.    YOU   decide if it is in the best interest and health for  your horse.   Do NOT  be afraid to ask additional questions and have them give you the reasoning behind their suggested  treatment.  Don't be  embarrassed  to say NO,  we aren't going to do that.  Or  I'd  like to think this over first.      Be it a farrier,  a vet,  a good friend,  a rolfer,  I don't care who it is;  just say NO.    Don't be ridiculed  by them either.    Oh yes this happens,  I have personally experienced this.    Throughout  all of this hassle,  you never forget that  only YOU  can speak for  YOUR  horse.    Get second
opinions if necessary,  or come on the list and ask.    There is no such thing as a stupid
question.    OK?   

I have asked some "pros"  to please leave my barn.  Paid them for the call,  and said your
services are no longer needed here.   Stand up and let em have it.....

Bear in mind  that you and your horses suffer the consequences for a long time if you
allow this to take place against your better judgement.   The "pro" drives down the road
to the next farm call.     NEVER  count yourself as a stupid animal owner.   YOU  know
this horse better than anyone else on the face of the earth;  so be wise.

I hope this helps you,  pls keep us informed.
Judy-PA



maxi wrote:


 

I had my Welsh x cob trimmed by a new farrier 10 days' ago as regular
chap never showed up. New farrier said William's feet were really
high at the heels and needed about 4" off to lower into the correct
position.
Farrier took 1 1/2inches off heel and sloughed off old sole and
shortened toes.
 
  
   
  




  


    

 


Claire Vale <clairevale@...>
 

Hi Maxi,

If the farrier trimmed into the live sole quite a bit, then that could explain a lot of his discomfort.  Its a personal rule of mine to avoid touching live sole except in very special circumstances Personally, Id ask the farriers attitude to trimming into live sole, and if he does it as a regular thing I wouldnt call him back.  Ive seen too much damage and pain caused by it to accept it as a general thing.

That said, there are times when you can have false sole masquerading as live sole, and when that is present, it may be appropriate to remove it.  Telling the difference between the two can be tricky though, and I tend to err on the side of caution since its easy enough to take more off in a little while than it is for the horse to spend weeks or months growing it back.  False sole (as I define it) is formed when the solar corium is inflamed, and there is excess plasma in the area.  This plasma gets incorporated into the newly growing sole, forming a very hard, almost plastic-y sole that doesnt break up the same as ordinary dead sole when it reaches the surface of the foot two to three months later Often it has a slight orange-y colour (this wont be noticeable if the horse has greyish-black soles, though).  Because of the consistency, it can remain in a thick layer over the foot, and may cause discomfort which can be alleviated by removing some or all of the false sole (more often than not it seems to provide extra protection, which is why Id leave it at least for the first trim).

What I have found hugely beneficial when the heels are tall and yet the live sole is near the ground surface, is to reassess and adjust the breakover point at the toe (I use Gene Ovniceks method of determining where the breakover point ought to be www.hopeforsoundness.com) So far, simply doing this has allowed the heels to remodel on their own over the following months, and the live sole recedes back to a more natural position WITHOUT my ever having to trim into the live sole to try and force the heels to be a height the horse isnt yet ready for.  The final result might not be the perfect wild horse hoof, however its right for the individual horse and his circumstances (environment, movement, level of internal damage and remodelling).  [The cool thing about the effect of the breakover point on the heels is that it also works the other way low splatted heels start to strengthen and stand up this is because adjusting the breakover point re-balances the internal forces within the hoof and allows the horse to start using the heels more properly.]

As has been suggested, slight wedge pads might make him a lot happier.  And Id let those heels grow back and NOT trim into live sole in the future.  While ideally, yes, we do want the heels at a normal height, it seldom is very effective to force them to be something they just arent ready for yet.  Ive had a lot more success in setting the foot up to make its own changes.

Claire Vale

New Zealand

(barefoot trimmer)

_____________________________________________

From: ECHoof@... [mailto:ECHoof@...] On Behalf Of Macs McCutcheon
Sent: Tuesday, 3 July 2007 6:56 p.m.
To: ECHoof@...
Subject: RE: [ECHoof] Hind leg pain

Dear Clare

I can’t thank you enough for all your comments, they have helped me sort out maybe some of the reasons Why Will is so sore.  I  have a physio coming tonight at 8pm so I hope she can alleviate some muscle soreness.  I’ve replied to most of your queries, but I can’t measure the heel to live sole yet as I need somebody to help, but will let you know asap. 

This group is so fantastic – such a relief to know you and others are out there for us all!  Thank you again Clare.

“Have you had x-rays taken recently?”

Had last ones taken end of March 2007 and vet will come next time new farrier is here on 18 July.  Will send them to you if I can’t get my son to help me as they are not in jpg.  Thank you.


“If he does trim heels down for good hoof function...probably with other rebalancing”

Yes, farrier said he must re-align toes to match – he drew me pictures of what he was going to try to achieve.


“...down very slowly to give him time to adapt..”

Yes, farrier said he would do it slowly, but I agree with you, 1½” is a lot to take off first time


“How long are the heels in relation to the live sole?” – will get asap

“Did the farrier trim into the live sole to bring the heels down?”

Yes, quite a lot


“Does the usual farrier trim out the dead sole?”

No, he just takes off a small amount with a chisel, then trims rest of hoof to suit


“Did the new farrier trim into the new live sole?”

Yes, a lot, until he had taken out all the muck as William has thrush. Farrier said this was because

he hadn’t been trimmed deep enough.  I was spraying with purple spray, but farrier said it wouldn’t have made any difference to cleansing the bacteria if the trim wasn’t satisfactory


“Avoid bute”

He isn’t on any bute at all, but very occasionally I give him ½ sachet of Danilon twice a day for one day only.  I agree with you, I don’t want to give bute or any other painkillers long-term because of the side-effects.

Photos – I will get son to help me.

Maxi