Hoof casts


parkell2001 <kingdom@...>
 

"Dr.Kellon wrote:

I asked you that specifically in response to comments about
difficulty of putting them on. They really are as easy to put on as
Vetwrap."


The following is the file called Laminitis-Hoof Mechanism, that I
have copied directly out of the file section of the EC Hoof list.

Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:07 AM

I want to take a minute here to explain another important reason why
general discussions of barefoot vs shoes are not appropriate for
this
list.*

**Laminitic feet are not normal**
Obvious? Maybe, but when discussions turn to general they quickly
forget that fact.
For example, let's take one hot point: "hoof mechanism", aka hoof
expansion on weightbearing, which involves the weight coming down
through the bone column (with traction on the laminae), dorsal hoof
wall moving back, expansion at the quarters and heels, dropping of
the frog and sole.

For the hoof to heal, the hoof capsule has to be properly positioned
around the bone to transfer forces in a normal way. This is true for
both laminitics and normal hooves. A correct trim also encourages
normal "hoof mechanism". However, the similarities stop there. The
laminitic hoof will not be capable of withstanding the forces of
weightbearing in a normal manner for the simple reason that it's not
normal. As someone else posted on that thread, "support" is an
illusion. It doesn't matter what you put under the horse's foot, if
you put the full weight of the horse through "hoof mechanism" onto a
hoof with weakened laminae they'll be damaged further. The white
line spreading and quarter flaring you see in laminitic feet occur
as a result of weightbearing on hooves with damaged laminae.

Therefore, while it is critical to trim a laminitic foot to a normal
alignment of the hoof capsule with the internal structures, the
purpose is to relieve abnormal forces that would do even more damage
and to encourage correct hoof wall growth, but not to encourage hoof
mechanism. In fact, an equally important part of treating laminitic
feet is to discourage full hoof mechanism - by padding, sand,
styrofoam, etc. Soft surfaces are more comfortable, and safe,
because there is minimal hoof expansion/hoof mechanism on soft
surfaces.

Shoes (or hoof casts) also limit hoof expansion and give the
professional more options in unloading particularly weakened areas
of the hoof if that is needed, but have a major drawback of not
allowing easy access to the hoof for frequent trims and long term
they do result in feet that are not as structural sound and "robust"
as bare feet. I completely agree with Abby that most feet can be
dealt with very effectively with correct trimming, pads and boots
and do not require shoes or casts, but some do benefit and when
dealing with a laminitic horse, especially a chronic case with
longstanding hoof deformity, you should never limit your treatment
options based on arguments that really don't apply to laminitic feet.

For further general discussion of laminitic vs normal feet, please
take it over to ECHoof, but anyone who wants to discuss their
individual horse, do it here.

Eleanor

*(the main Equine Cushings List. ed)


This file states that shoes and hoof casts give the PROFESSIONAL
more options in unloading the foot, etc. which is why I made a point
in my post of considering hoof casts as needing professional
application, especially when utilized with shoes.(even if the shoe
is not nailed on, how is the average horse owner going to get the
horse trimmed well if they don't use their current farrier who by
the way, has been incorrectly trimming the horse all along, choose a
correct shoe size for underneath, make sure it is placed under the
foot in the proper position and the branches widened or narrowed
correctly before wrapping). Should the shoes be on forward or
backward? How far backward?

Abby has indicated that she uses shoes under the casts, is this
necessary or not?

Dr. Kellon, PLEASE do not take this as an argument or a
confrontation with you or anyone else on the list. I am genuinely
confused as to the conflicting information presented and am trying
to clearly understand the cast process.
Dawn W


Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

--- In ECHoof@..., "parkell2001" <kingdom@...> wrote:

This file states that shoes and hoof casts give the PROFESSIONAL
more options in unloading the foot, etc. which is why I made a
point
in my post of considering hoof casts as needing professional
application, especially when utilized with shoes.(even if the shoe
is not nailed on, how is the average horse owner going to get the
horse trimmed well if they don't use their current farrier who by
the way, has been incorrectly trimming the horse all along,
The hoof casts don't need any different trim than being barefoot
does. Nor does a shoeing trim, a clog trim, etc. The starting point
for ANY successful hoof care approach is a physiologically sound
trim. The main difference between a barefoot trim and a trim for
shoeing IMO is rolling the hoof wall for a barefoot horse. Some of
the other things some farriers do when shoeing a horse, like leaving
heels long or trimming the sole to pliable, toes too long, etc. don't
really have to be done to put on a shoe. What I'm trying to say, and
I can see why you were confused, is that applying the casts doesn't
need a professional - but all hoof care is hopefully done with a
competent professional helping to make decisions like whether or not
a horse can use the additional help of casting, and definitely
whatever you do to/with the horse needs to have a sound trim as a
first step. As for getting the hoof trimmed properly, the owner is in
as much trouble there going barefoot without competent professional
help as they are with casts.

correct shoe size for underneath, make sure it is placed under the
foot in the proper position and the branches widened or narrowed
correctly before wrapping). Should the shoes be on forward or
backward? How far backward?
Whether handled by owner or not (and Abby and I have both coached
many an owner in that boat of no competent hoof care!), whether
barefoot or casted, you need to have a solid mental image in your
head of where the "hoof print" (ground surface) of the hoof should be
relative to the position of the coffin bone. If the coffin bone has
moved, the ground surface of the hoof needs to also be moved so that
it is properly supported and to eliminate forces that would tend to
make it displace even more. The possibilities range from no
displacement to sinking to any number of degrees of rotation and all
of this occuring in a wide variety of starting hoof forms. I'm
honestly not trying to be vague here but where the shoe needs to go,
if you even need one, depends on your starting point and has to be
individualized to the case. The shoe is useful for horses that cannot
be given a complete realigning trim in one sitting. For example, if
the horse is rotated or has sinking and is also long toe/underrun
heel, a backwards shoe is for that horse - but not necessarily every
horse.

Abby has indicated that she uses shoes under the casts, is this
necessary or not?
As above, not necessarily. The shoe is used to allow you to set the
hoof print where it needs to be and therefore send the correct
message to the coronary band for direction of hoof growth.

Dr. Kellon, PLEASE do not take this as an argument or a
confrontation with you or anyone else on the list.
I'm not!

Eleanor


parkell2001 <kingdom@...>
 

--- In ECHoof@..., "Eleanor Kellon, VMD" <drkellon@...>
wrote:
- but all hoof care is hopefully done with a
competent professional helping to make decisions like whether or
not
a horse can use the additional help of casting, and definitely
whatever you do to/with the horse needs to have a sound trim as a
first step. As for getting the hoof trimmed properly, the owner is
in
as much trouble there going barefoot without competent
professional
help as they are with casts.
Absolutely agree with you there. I had to learn to trim myself when
my gelding foundered 8 years ago and even though at the time I was
using a farrier with excellent credentials, he told me he would try
anything I suggested, as he had about ten founder cases in his
practice and nothing he did seemed to work. My vet at the time told
me that I needed to get my horse's coffin bones ground parallel, but
he didn't know how to do it. But also that he had spent time at
Texas A & M during a residency making rounds with Burney Chapman
(inventor of the heart bar shoe) and he was adamant that I not use
heart bars because he had never seen them work on any of the horses
Chapman was shoeing!!!! But he didn't know what else to suggest. So,
I fully understand what being an owner without competent help is
like.


Whether handled by owner or not (and Abby and I have both coached
many an owner in that boat of no competent hoof care!), whether
barefoot or casted, you need to have a solid mental image in your
head of where the "hoof print" (ground surface) of the hoof should
be
relative to the position of the coffin bone.
And something I think is probably very hard for non trimming/shoeing
experienced owners to understand, as they so often haven't seen a
correct foot. Go into any barn, or clinic, or show and look at feet
and it's scary.And that goes for both shod and unshod feet. What has
become a huge fad at dressage shows now is long toe,long heel, egg
bars, to get movement like saddleseat horses.

What may be of help to everyone is to put pics in the files section
of correct,ideal feet, so that people can train their eye.

Thanks for the detailed explanation, it's very helpful.
Dawn




briarskingstonnet <briars@...>
 

What may be of help to everyone is to put pics in the files section
of correct,ideal feet, so that people can train their eye.
I'm assuming here that we'd need to see the whole horse not just his
hooves,right? A foot that is ideal for one horse is not necessarily
ideal for others....that's my understanding,in any case.
Am I close?

Lorna
Kingston


parkell2001 <kingdom@...>
 

Hi Lorna,
Yes, ideally seeing a close up of an ideal foot and the horse attached
to it would be helpful. Where often people get hung up trying to
determine an ideal foot is the notion that the angle of the foot
should match the pastern which matches the shoulder angle. One can
create a steep foot which seems to match the now steep pastern angle
(which is being casued by the high angle high heeled foot)and the
horse will often lock up the shoulders, which makes their angle
steeper. When you look at a horse like that, it will "appear" to have
correct angles, etc. but in reality is not physiologically correct.
It's a crooked house of cards built off of incorrect hoof form.

What I think is more in keeping with what Dr. Kellon and Abby are
talking about it getting the foot under the horse's bony column, with
the heel back and more perpendicular to the ground. The actual angle
of the hoof wall becomes less important as this can vary a few degrees
with individual horses.

What is so prevalent today is either the steep long toe long heel, or
more often, the long heel that is collapsed and underrun(which looks
deceivingly like a too short heel, when in reality it has grown long
and forward)and then long stretched out toes. And if that is all you
see around you , pretty soon, those feet look normal, and it is
difficult to determine where to go from there. What Dr. Kellon said in
an earlier post is correct, when using the casts(or trimming, or
shoeing)one needs to be able to visualize what the foot should ideally
look like. And if you don't have a clear idea of a good foot, that is
going to be difficult to picture.
Dawn





--- In ECHoof@..., "briarskingstonnet" <briars@...> wrote:

What may be of help to everyone is to put pics in the files
section
of correct,ideal feet, so that people can train their eye.
I'm assuming here that we'd need to see the whole horse not just his
hooves,right? A foot that is ideal for one horse is not necessarily
ideal for others....that's my understanding,in any case.
Am I close?

Lorna
Kingston


Ute <ute@...>
 

You are absolutely right on - that's why we need to listen more to each horse individually to find what is right for them. As humans we tend to make some assumptions without fully logically thinking it through. The widely held believe by veterinarians and farriers alike,  of jacking up heels in a foundered horse is such an example. Why on earth would I increase heel height, when that only increases the rotation of the coffin bone??
 
30 years ago, veterinary and farrier manuals suggested the same kind of treatment we, as barefoot trimmers, now find again most helpful - pull the shoes and lower the heels to relieve the coffin bone rotation.  That changed when a veterinarian observed a laminitic/foundered horse standing in sand with the toes pointing down and caused the assumption that a horse would feel better when the heels are elevated. But it does not work.I have seen and heard of case after case where the heel elevation eventually caused the foundered horse to break down further. Why are those horses not listened to by the farriers and veterinarians in whose care they are? Why is this ignored again and again? Is it not the professional's responsibility to observe and note such failures to find a better way of treatment? Obviously there are a sign that something is not working and the approach needs to be changed.
 
Ute
 
 
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe  - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 5:05 PM
Subject: [ECHoof] Re: Hoof casts

> What may be of help to everyone is to put pics in the files section
> of correct,ideal feet, so that people can train their eye.

I'm assuming here that we'd need to see the whole horse not just his
hooves,right? A foot that is ideal for one horse is not necessarily
ideal for others....that's my understanding,in any case.
Am I close?

Lorna
Kingston


Joan and Dazzle
 

Hi Ute,

The problem that I see with so many professionals is that when
presented with a different idea, with which they have no experience,
instead of saying, "What an interesting idea, tell me more", they
say, "My way and methodology is the BEST way to do it. Your idea
doesn't have research, background, published papers, etc. Your idea is
wrong because MY way is the best".

And they shut down the valuable advice and ideas that would lead them
on the path of discovery.

Joan and Dazzle

--- In ECHoof@..., "Ute" <ute@...> wrote:

Is it not the professional's responsibility to observe and note such
failures to find a better way of treatment?

Ute


Ute <ute@...>
 

Yes, very true. People need to realize that even research does not always have it right. It is results that count - as they say, the proof is in the pudding. If one consistently gets undesirable results, steps need to be taken towards improvement. We need to question the status quo. THIS is how we learn and advance and I strongly believe that as professionals , who affect the well being of another being, we have that obligation!
 
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe  - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 8:14 PM
Subject: [ECHoof] Re: Hoof casts

Hi Ute,

The problem that I see with so many professionals is that when
presented with a different idea, with which they have no experience,
instead of saying, "What an interesting idea, tell me more", they
say, "My way and methodology is the BEST way to do it. Your idea
doesn't have research, background, published papers, etc. Your idea is
wrong because MY way is the best".

And they shut down the valuable advice and ideas that would lead them
on the path of discovery.

Joan and Dazzle

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, "Ute" wrote:
>
> Is it not the professional's responsibility to observe and note such
failures to find a better way of treatment?
>
> Ute
>


valsbouquet
 

--- In ECHoof@..., "Ute" <ute@...> wrote:

...that's why we need to listen more to each horse individually to
find what is right for them.

AND be willing to try it if it can't hurt but might help.

As humans we tend to make some assumptions without fully logically
thinking it through. The widely held believe by veterinarians and
farriers alike, of jacking up heels in a foundered horse is such an
example. Why on earth would I increase heel height, when that only
increases the rotation of the coffin bone??
> 30 years ago, veterinary and farrier manuals suggested the same
kind of treatment we, as barefoot trimmers, now find again most
helpful - pull the shoes and lower the heels to relieve the coffin
bone rotation. That changed when a veterinarian observed a
laminitic/foundered horse standing in sand with the toes pointing
down and caused the assumption that a horse would feel better when
the heels are elevated. But it does not work.

It worked for my horse, 4 out of 5 times, and actually stopped
penetration of P3 in both front feet and in time returned to within
normal parimeters.
This last episode was not as responsive to my normal routine however,
and Dr Kellon kindly reminded me that my horse was telling me it was
time for a change.

Kris


Ute <ute@...>
 

"It worked for my horse, 4 out of 5 times, and actually stopped 
penetration of P3 in both front feet and in time returned to within
normal parameters.
This last episode was not as responsive to my normal routine however,
and Dr Kellon kindly reminded me that my horse was telling me it was
time for a change."
 
This to me would bring up several questions to contemplate ( I am not trying to question you btw - this would simply be my way of trying to identify what exactly went on):
 
Why did the horse founder so many times?
How comfortable was the horse with this type of treatment? Was the relief immediate as it is with lowering the heels to relieve CB tip pressure and create a more CB alignment?
Was it the raising of the heels that stopped the penetration, or was it the aggressive medical treatment?
Why did it no longer work last time?
 
 
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe  - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 2:36 PM
Subject: [ECHoof] Re: Hoof casts

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, "Ute" wrote:
>
>...that's why we need to listen more to each horse individually to
find what is right for them.

AND be willing to try it if it can't hurt but might help.

>As humans we tend to make some assumptions without fully logically
thinking it through. The widely held believe by veterinarians and
farriers alike, of jacking up heels in a foundered horse is such an
example. Why on earth would I increase heel height, when that only
increases the rotation of the coffin bone??
> 30 years ago, veterinary and farrier manuals suggested the same
kind of treatment we, as barefoot trimmers, now find again most
helpful - pull the shoes and lower the heels to relieve the coffin
bone rotation. That changed when a veterinarian observed a
laminitic/foundered horse standing in sand with the toes pointing
down and caused the assumption that a horse would feel better when
the heels are elevated. But it does not work.

It worked for my horse, 4 out of 5 times, and actually stopped
penetration of P3 in both front feet and in time returned to within
normal parimeters.
This last episode was not as responsive to my normal routine however,
and Dr Kellon kindly reminded me that my horse was telling me it was
time for a change.

Kris


valsbouquet
 

--- In ECHoof@..., "Ute" <ute@...> wrote:

"It worked for my horse, 4 out of 5 times, and actually stopped
penetration of P3 in both front feet and in time returned to within
normal parameters.
This last episode was not as responsive to my normal routine
however,
and Dr Kellon kindly reminded me that my horse was telling me it
was
time for a change."

This to me would bring up several questions to contemplate ( I am
not trying to question you btw - this would simply be my way of
trying to identify what exactly went on):

I'm glad that you asked.

Why did the horse founder so many times?
Time frame is approaching 13 years now.
First time she foundered was from a Bute overdose by a Veterinarian
(she had been drooling due to white clover)
We did not realise how much permanent damage had been done until
later when she foundered the second time after a single West Nile
vaccine, then again years later after a single Tetnus, (Check out;
Systemic Immuno Hypersensitivity in the Equine with Chronic
Laminitis) then again when she developed cushings & it got out of
control. This last bout which started January o7, was questionable,
winter laminitis/cold?

How comfortable was the horse with this type of treatment? Was the
relief immediate as it is with lowering the heels to relieve CB tip
pressure and create a more CB alignment?

Is it ALWAYS immediate as you state above? (Not trying to be
confrontational but I have no other experience but my own)

I addressed the breakover by rockering her toes (approx 3/4 of an
inch in front of the frog)which brought "some" immediate relief.
The farrier then trimmed her per Dr Redden's instructions using
radiographs. The Ulimates with ACS (advanced cushion support) was
applied and she was comfortable enough that I had to contain her in
fear of her causing more damage.

Was it the raising of the heels that stopped the penetration, or
was it the aggressive medical treatment?

There was NO medical treatment. THAT'S what had put her in this
state. :(

Why did it no longer work last time?
This is the million dollar question.
I can't say that it didn't work at all - just not to the degree in
which it did previously. Who can say how much worse it might have
been if I hadn't of done it?
In fairness, I was not able to get her to Dr Redden for him to assess
in person, which he stated that he needed to do at that point.
I then switched to barefoot but we're still struggling
with "intermittent" pain , primarily in her right front.
From my experience, I do believe that radiographs are essential &
most beneficial before each & every trim. Of course, the expense
prohibits most of us from getting them that frequently and I think it
must be human nature to want to cut corners but expect the same
results as if we hadn't.

Kris




BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance
Barefoot Trimmer

www.balancedstep.com

----- Original Message -----
From: valsbouquet
To: ECHoof@...
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 2:36 PM
Subject: [ECHoof] Re: Hoof casts


--- In ECHoof@..., "Ute" <ute@> wrote:
>
>...that's why we need to listen more to each horse individually
to
find what is right for them.

AND be willing to try it if it can't hurt but might help.

>As humans we tend to make some assumptions without fully
logically
thinking it through. The widely held believe by veterinarians and
farriers alike, of jacking up heels in a foundered horse is such
an
example. Why on earth would I increase heel height, when that
only
increases the rotation of the coffin bone??
> 30 years ago, veterinary and farrier manuals suggested the same
kind of treatment we, as barefoot trimmers, now find again most
helpful - pull the shoes and lower the heels to relieve the
coffin
bone rotation. That changed when a veterinarian observed a
laminitic/foundered horse standing in sand with the toes pointing
down and caused the assumption that a horse would feel better
when
the heels are elevated. But it does not work.

It worked for my horse, 4 out of 5 times, and actually stopped
penetration of P3 in both front feet and in time returned to
within
normal parimeters.
This last episode was not as responsive to my normal routine
however,
and Dr Kellon kindly reminded me that my horse was telling me it
was
time for a change.

Kris


Jeanette
 

Kris -- I **would like to check out the article you mentioned
earlier: "Systemic Immuno Hypersensitivity in the Equine with Chronic
Laminitis". Can you be more specific as to source?

Thanks.

Jeanette
Colorado


valsbouquet
 

--- In ECHoof@..., "Jeanette" <jrlaur46@...> wrote:

Kris -- I **would like to check out the article you mentioned
earlier: "Systemic Immuno Hypersensitivity in the Equine with Chronic
Laminitis". Can you be more specific as to source?

Thanks.

Jeanette
Colorado
Hi Jeanette,

Here is the link to the abstract. (I don't know...Am I allowed to share
the full text publicly?) Dr Hood and Dr Wagner were kind enough to
share it with me before it was even published since I was having such a
difficult time convincing any vet (other than Dr Kellon) without "proof
on paper" that Misty could no longer tolerate vaccines/medications
without getting laminitis.

AVMA - American Journal of Veterinary Research - 64(3):279 - Abstract

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.2003.64.279

Kris


Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

Kris,

You can't post it here, but you can send it privately to individuals.
Speaking of which, shoot me a copy please. I lost my full text in a
computer crash. Thanks.

Eleanor

--- In ECHoof@..., "valsbouquet" <danfolz@...> wrote:

--- In ECHoof@..., "Jeanette" <jrlaur46@> wrote:

Kris -- I **would like to check out the article you mentioned
earlier: "Systemic Immuno Hypersensitivity in the Equine with
Chronic
Laminitis". Can you be more specific as to source?

Thanks.

Jeanette
Colorado
Hi Jeanette,

Here is the link to the abstract. (I don't know...Am I allowed to
share
the full text publicly?) Dr Hood and Dr Wagner were kind enough to
share it with me before it was even published since I was having
such a
difficult time convincing any vet (other than Dr Kellon)
without "proof
on paper" that Misty could no longer tolerate vaccines/medications
without getting laminitis.

AVMA - American Journal of Veterinary Research - 64(3):279 -
Abstract

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.2003.64.279

Kris