Hoof casts/was Update on GP dressage horse with founder
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briarskingstonnet <briars@...>
Rather we simply disagree with the approach as presented, as itGosh. What a sweeping statement. Ute? What is your experience with hoof casts that cause you to draw the conclusion stated above? Lorna Ontario
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Ute <ute@...>
Peripheral hoof wall loading!
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe - LMT/LAMT NCTMB Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
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Larson <seahorses3@...>
Ute,
O.K., amateur chiming in here, but I do speak English - and have a 24 year old severely laminitic Percheron in hoof casts who is walking comfortably for the first time. I agree with Lorna and the others who find this a very interesting conversation, but Lorna asked a very clear and direct question, to wit: " What is your experience with hoof casts that cause you to draw the conclusion stated above?" To which you responded "Peripheral hoof wall loading!" Could you please connect your (hands-on) experience with hoof casts to your response? Thanks. Carol and Blue in Maine
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briarskingstonnet <briars@...>
Peripheral hoof wall loading!Um,can you help me out here,Ute?I have significant interest in learning about any unwanted side effects of these casts.Your exclamation mark indicates I should know what you mean by this. Do you mean you have tried them on horses and there has been peripheral hoof wall loading which caused problems for the horse? Do you mean that the casts only allow for PHWL ,and can therefore cause trouble? I didn't think the last sentence was a truth about the casts,but I'd like to be educated,that's for sure. Have you used them on horses and needed to remove them becuase they caused discomfort? Lorna Kingston have >found to be detrimental to hoof health in the long run! Ute? What is your experience with hoof casts that cause you todraw the conclusion stated above?
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Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
You need to do to the site and see how the casts are set up. With or
without a shoe, they conform to the undersurface of the foot. It's not all peripheral loading. Peripheral loading is a common to both shod and bare feet on hard ground. Load sharing is common to both shod and bare feet on soft surfaces. Eleanor --- In ECHoof@..., "Ute" <ute@...> wrote: Barefoot Trimmer founder have >found to be detrimental to hoof health in the long run!draw the conclusion stated above?
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Ute <ute@...>
As I have explained it in a previous post -
research has shown that peripheral hoofwall loading that is created by shoes
generally has a negative affect on hoof function and health and should be
avoided. Horse's hooves are biomechanically designed to be fully loaded
during contact ( Newly
Discovered Shock Absorber in the Equine Foot http://www.hoofrehab.com/gelpad.htm).
Hooves are naturally designed to flex and expand. It
creates a suspension effect that is taken away by applying shoes, not to mention
the instability and increase concussion they create.
See videos here: With shoe: http://www.naturhov.dk/prod/Clips/Hovnedslag_med_beslag.mpg
barefoot: http://www.naturhov.dk/prod/Clips/hovnedslag_uden_beslag.mpg
Like I said before, I can see the cast being very
helpful in cases where the hoofwall is compromised, but I no longer see the
benefit of using shoes on horses. I have seen most horses improve
in laminitis/ founder cases by only applying correct trimming, diet and
exercise. The only cases that we see fail are the ones where the coffin bone has
deteriorated to a point if no return. In such cases it is usually kinder to
euthanize the horse.
The Equicast system also claims that it helps
horses with navicular. One common theme in navicular horses is generally a
deformed hoof capsule, usually created by incorrect trimming (leaving heels to
high and causing incorrect tow loading) in combination with shoes that are too
small for the horse's foot (causing also contraction). Those hooves need to be
allowed to expand as much as possible to heal. Using a cast that is
rigid to a certain degree will most likely interfere with the
progress.
I also dislike the statement on the Equicast site
also claims that boots poorly fit and cost a lot of money. Some maybe
pricey, but correctly fitted, quality boots do work very well for a
year or more and can be taken off at the end of the day.
Compromised hoofwalls are usually created by a diet
that is too high in sugars and incorrect trimming. From what I have learned and
experienced, I do know that hoof flexion and expansion is vital to growing in a
new and healthy foot that is biomechanically correct for the individual horse. I
am skeptical that the Equicast system might possibly interfere with this process
too much, therefore delaying the healing process that could be achieved
faster.
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe - LMT/LAMT NCTMB Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
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Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
I think you're missing the point of the casts entirely.
1. They set up with the hoof wall full weightbearing, opposite leg held up, which allows for natural hoof wall expansion on ground contact. 2. They prevent pathological expansion of the hoof wall away from the sole and P3 that would otherwise be experienced by horses with weakened, damaged or absent laminar connections. 3. The shoe, if used, does not have to be nailed on. A shoe under the cast can automatically give the horse a ground surface outline of support where it is supposed to be. The better designed ground surfaces on some boots can do that too, but with something like a severely underrun foot the boot will not fit securely and still be able to provide correct "foot print". The hoof grows down in response to the information it gets at ground surface. This is why it is so difficult to rehab long toe, underrun feet - worst of all, long toe, underrun, laminitic feet. The casts work so well because they are sending the correct information to the coronary band. The trim, as always, is made as correct as possible before the casts are applied, but if a truly physiological trim is not possible from the first trim, the position of a shoe inside the cast allows for the cast to create a weightbearing surface where it should be. Would also have to disagree that grain feeding is the root of all hoof quality problems. For an insulin resistant horse, yes - it's a significant issue. However, not all horses are insulin resistant and there are several other nutritional problems that are related to poor hoof quality. There are also genetic factors. Biggest factor of all though is poor hoof care. Eleanor --- In ECHoof@..., "Ute" <ute@...> wrote: peripheral hoofwall loading that is created by shoes generally has a negative affect on hoof function and health and should be avoided. Horse's hooves are biomechanically designed to be fully loaded during contact ( Newly Discovered Shock Absorber in the Equine Foot http://www.hoofrehab.com/gelpad.htm). Hooves are naturally designed to flex and expand. It creates a suspension effect that is taken away by applying shoes, not to mention the instability and increase concussion they create. http://www.naturhov.dk/prod/Clips/Hovnedslag_med_beslag.mpg barefoot: http://www.naturhov.dk/prod/Clips/hovnedslag_uden_beslag.mpg where the hoofwall is compromised, but I no longer see the benefit of using shoes on horses. I have seen most horses improve in laminitis/ founder cases by only applying correct trimming, diet and exercise. The only cases that we see fail are the ones where the coffin bone has deteriorated to a point if no return. In such cases it is usually kinder to euthanize the horse. navicular. One common theme in navicular horses is generally a deformed hoof capsule, usually created by incorrect trimming (leaving heels to high and causing incorrect tow loading) in combination with shoes that are too small for the horse's foot (causing also contraction). Those hooves need to be allowed to expand as much as possible to heal. Using a cast that is rigid to a certain degree will most likely interfere with the progress. boots poorly fit and cost a lot of money. Some maybe pricey, but correctly fitted, quality boots do work very well for a year or more and can be taken off at the end of the day. high in sugars and incorrect trimming. From what I have learned and experienced, I do know that hoof flexion and expansion is vital to growing in a new and healthy foot that is biomechanically correct for the individual horse. I am skeptical that the Equicast system might possibly interfere with this process too much, therefore delaying the healing process that could be achieved faster. Barefoot Trimmer with founder I'd like to be educated,that's for sure.they caused discomfort?it > >continues to perpetuate some hoof management solutions that we
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Ute <ute@...>
I don't think I am missing the point. My concern is
the use of the cast in combination with a shoe. Anytime the hoofwall is lifted
by the means of a shoe, more peripheral hoofwall loading is created.
I also cannot see how full weight bearing can be
achieved by only holding one foot up. It does not take into consideration
movement and speed which will most likely increased loading to varying degrees.
As you know, hooves also grow in response to what
the horse is getting in the diet and this is where I have to disagree with you
on the following:
"Would also have to disagree that grain feeding is
the root of all
hoof quality problems. For an insulin resistant horse, yes - it's a significant issue. However, not all horses are insulin resistant and there are several other nutritional problems that are related to poor hoof quality. There are also genetic factors. Biggest factor of all though is poor hoof care." I did not say that grain feeding was the root cause
of all hoof problems, I said that a diet high in NSCs, from whatever source, can
be a factor. Research has proven that in extreme cases, high NSC load is
definitely THE issue and leads to laminitis or worse founder. However, although
research is still missing, I am also 100 % convinced that even "non-laminitic"
horses are affected. The issue is not just black and white. As with many
conditions, there can be a lot of gray areas and symptoms often range from very
mild to severe. We have seen in many cases that a horse that was on a low NSC
diet before, suddenly developed a dropped sole or loss of concavity with white
line stretching and growing and excessive toe flare with underslung heels. No
active laminitis was apparent in those cases, or was it?
I believe that those horses actually suffer from
subclinical laminitis, as expressed in negative hoof structure changes. We
typically see any of the following symptoms if a horse is affected by the NSCs
he's getting in his diet, without showing laminitis soreness, that
generally resolve when the diet is changed to low NSC, without making any other
changes:
The connection is never made, because the
horses have not experienced an active laminitis flare up. If a horse shows any
of those symptoms in the hooves and is on a rather high NSC diet in combination
with not enough exercise to burn the excess off, diet changes should be made to
decrease the NSC load.
Ute
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe - LMT/LAMT NCTMB Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
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briarskingstonnet <briars@...>
--- In ECHoof@..., "Ute" <ute@...> wrote:
cast in combination with a shoe. Anytime the hoofwall is lifted by the means of a shoe, more peripheral hoofwall loading is created. I have a question for you. If a horse ,who is recovering from having sloughed his front feet 4 times,is comfortable when his hoof stands on a shoe,either inside the casts or inside a boot(with frog/sole support),and not comfortable when not on the shoe,what conclusions would you draw? We are not talking about nailed on shoes here. As I understand it the casts are very versatile and shoes don't need to be used. Maybe I'm just a bear of little brain,but to me in the above scenario,the choice would have to be to add the shoes.No nails. Lorna Kingston
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Ute-
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
It seems we are stuck in the revolving door "all shoes are bad all the time" conversation. You are referencing much of Dr Bowker's recent research and theory about blood profusion on various surfaces. But even he will say there are times when one might need shoes. The key, I believe, is to use any approach with common sense and a thorough understanding of what and why you do something. Speaking to your NSC comments....I'm just betting you know you are preaching to the choir here. If not, then you may want to do a bit more reading on the main list. Nancy C and Beau and Gabe in NH EC Hoof Co-moderator
On Feb 23, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Ute wrote:
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Ute <ute@...>
I stated my concerns and reservations several times
now. I have nothing more to add.
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe - LMT/LAMT NCTMB Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
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Ute <ute@...>
And this is were I also disagree with Dr.
Bowker. From all the research I have done I find consistently that shoes do
more harm than good and inhibit healthy hoof function on several levels and
negatively affect the musculo-skeletal system as well, thanks to increased
torque and concussion. The typical reasons given for shoes are
generally
I can logically disprove any of those statements, as I already have in
previous posts and with supporting data. Horses can perform barefoot and
correctly fitted boots should be used as needed - at least they can be taken off
at the end of the day. The only exception I would make are using synthetic shoes
as an alternative. Even humans would not run around on shoes that have a metal
piece attached to the sole - why should horses and why do we think it would be
beneficial for horses when we very well know that it would not be for humans?? I
rest my case! Ute
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe - LMT/LAMT NCTMB Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
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Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
--- In ECHoof@..., "Ute" <ute@...> wrote:
cast in combination with a shoe. Anytime the hoofwall is lifted by the means of a shoe, more peripheral hoofwall loading is created. Let me try this another way. We are specifically talking about a shoe INSIDE the cast. Weighbearing is on the cast material. The forces generated on ground contact are shared by cast material which is encompassing the foot, also on the bottom of the foot. Even with the shoe on the outside, the landing forces are transmitted to the cast. I'm sure Abby could describe that more precisely. holding one foot up. It does not take into consideration movement and speed which will most likely increased loading to varying degrees. We're talking about compromised feet here. No speed involved. getting in the diet and this is where I have to disagree with you on the following: and there are several other nutritional problems that are related topoor hoof quality. There are also genetic factors. Biggest factor of allproblems, I said that a diet high in NSCs, from whatever source, can be a factor. Research has proven that in extreme cases, high NSC load is definitely THE issue and leads to laminitis or worse founder. Only if the horse cannot handle the load. Every horse, every breed is different. However, although research is still missing, I am also 100 % convinced that even "non-laminitic" horses are affected. The issue is not just black and white. As with many conditions, there can be a lot of gray areas and symptoms often range from very mild to severe. That's certainly true, and already proven by Dr. Johnson (that even subclinical, in terms of hoof pain, IR horses have laminar changes). We have seen in many cases that a horse that was on a low NSC diet before, suddenly developed a dropped sole or loss of concavity with white line stretching and growing and excessive toe flare with underslung heels. No active laminitis was apparent in those cases, or was it? Diet doesn't cause dropped sole, loss of concavity and underslung heels. Poor trimming does. There are several radiographic criteria that can be used even in the absence of coffin bone rotation or sinking. You don't have to guess or speculate. laminitis, as expressed in negative hoof structure changes. We typically see any of the following symptoms if a horse is affected by the NSCs he's getting in his diet, without showing laminitis soreness, that generally resolve when the diet is changed to low NSC, without making any other changes: consistent compromise of hoofwall to laminae connection) e.. Frequent thrush problemsrelated) k.. Easy bruising and abscessingexperienced an active laminitis flare up. If a horse shows any of those symptoms in the hooves and is on a rather high NSC diet in combination with not enough exercise to burn the excess off, diet changes should be made to decrease the NSC load. a. can have many causes. b., e., f. and j. are not changes related to insulin resistance. Some of the other things could be, but not necessarily. These are way too nonspecific to say the horse must have laminitis as the cause. I would agree that any horse that is sensitive to sugar/starch at the ranges found in forage is likely IR. Eleanor
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Jenny Edwards <jaennyedwards@...>
I think the answer to your question in Drummer's case is that he has *very* thin soles (based on the x-rays from June 07) and by raising his sole off the ground (with the shoes or rims) you are giving him relief from sole pain. His coffin bone had dropped and was close to penetrating the sole at that point hence why he was so very sore. His laminar connection was so stressed and the huge flaring in his hooves caused by the walls being fully weightbearing (they were above the level of the sole with no bevel) meant that there was no way for the laminae to heal as every step was putting extra stress on the wall.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I think it's wonderful that Drummer is much more comfortable in the casts but I would be reluctant to take his level of comfort as an indication of healing. You said that by raising the sole off the ground with rims in the boots made him more comfortable, but did that help the hoof to heal during the period you did it? I am very interested in seeing progress pictures of his hooves - I have to admit that I too am a bit sceptical of the casts at this stage (mainly because of the wall loading issue and if they are put on when fully weightbearing does that not mean that the hoof wall still has room to move and hence the cast isn't really holding the hoof wall all that tight?) - but would love to see them work. Maybe the reason they work is because they allow the horse more comfort which means the horse moves more, which in turn increases the blood supply and boosts healing ability of the hoof? It would be really educational to see recent "before" pics and then progress ones every month or so. That way we could all get to see how effective they are. Would that be possible Lorna? Thanks Jenny
On 23-Feb-08, at 3:58 PM, briarskingstonnet wrote:
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aptly_asked <aptly_asked@...>
Ute wrote:
I'm going to pick apart just one little bit here... To decrease concussion - pads are used. Also steel shoes have more resonance than aluminum, and I've seen dramatic differences between horses shod in steel queen's plates (bad for them), and aluminum queens plates (good for them). Queens plates are a type of shoe that has a raised rim either on the inside or the outside, which goes all the way around (no toe grab or heel caulks), toe grabs and heel caulks were found to dramatically increase the risk of injury in racehorses, where-as either having raised rims all the way around was much better. It's an aside of some useless trivia, which really isn't doing anything with the discussion. Paul.
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aptly_asked <aptly_asked@...>
Ute wrote:
Ute, I can refute all three of those points ... simply by experience working with Thoroughbred race horses. If you want - I'll get detailed. Otherwise we'll agree to disagree. Paul.
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Claire Vale <clairevale@...>
Hi Ute,
Well, things are relative, aren’t they? Obviously shoes aren’t total death traps or we’d all have horses with their hooves sloughing off after the first application of shoes – so what damage is done, is gradual. And what we can’t separate out from the shoes themselves, is that a very large amount of the damage done is because of poor prep of the foot BEFORE the shoe is put on. Can you really prove (by way of evidence from research, not ‘logical arguments’ full of holes) that if you take a poorly balanced, pathological hoof, trim it appropriately, and then correctly apply the right sort of shoe, that this is doing even more harm? If you’ve removed the main factor in the cause of the pathology (the underlying imbalance, maybe diet / environment as well), can you really absolutely say that the shoe is still doing more harm or at least preventing healing? There are many many many examples out there of people doing exactly that – taking a damaged foot and helping it heal AT LEAST A BIT with appropriate shoeing.
I’m a barefoot trimmer, and I agree that in the vast majority of cases, the horse can and probably ‘should’ be barefoot with a correctly balanced trim to get the best health benefits. I do feel that shoes, even correctly applied, do have some inherent limitations that may prevent total health in the foot. But there is definitely a minority of horses where SOMETHING is needed to provide a degree of comfort. If the horse isn’t comfortable, he won’t move properly (or at all!), and so there is no benefit even if the feet are set up perfectly. If it takes shoeing for a while to get a small start on healing, until you reach a point where the foot and horse is now ready to have the shoe off, then is that not better than a sore miserable horse who refuses to move and therefore (by your own arguments) can’t heal? (And yes, I do know that the perfect combinations of boots and pads may well be a better option for most of those horses, but for whatever reason they may not always be the best option for the people involved.)
Claire Vale New Zealand
From: ECHoof@...
[mailto:ECHoof@...] On Behalf Of Ute
And this is were I also disagree with Dr. Bowker. From all the research I have done I find consistently that shoes do more harm than good and inhibit healthy hoof function on several levels and negatively affect the musculo-skeletal system as well, thanks to increased torque and concussion. The typical reasons given for shoes are generally
I can logically disprove any of those statements, as I already have in previous posts and with supporting data. Horses can perform barefoot and correctly fitted boots should be used as needed - at least they can be taken off at the end of the day. The only exception I would make are using synthetic shoes as an alternative. Even humans would not run around on shoes that have a metal piece attached to the sole - why should horses and why do we think it would be beneficial for horses when we very well know that it would not be for humans?? I rest my case!
Ute
BALANCED
STEP
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briarskingstonnet <briars@...>
We don't quite agree as far as the assessment goes,Jenny.
In any case,the proof of the pudding is in the eating.He is consistantly sound in the casts,moreso than he was in any of the boots. I can post pics as time allows. We should be redoing the casts quite soon.There is already good growth and the dip at the coronary band appears to be gone....I hope my eyes are not deceiving me. Lorna Kingston I think the answer to your question in Drummer's case is that hehas *very* thin soles (based on the x-rays from June 07) and byraising his sole off the ground (with the shoes or rims) you are givinghim relief from sole pain. His coffin bone had dropped and was closeto penetrating the sole at that point hence why he was so very sore.His laminar connection was so stressed and the huge flaring in hishooves caused by the walls being fully weightbearing (they were above thethe laminae to heal as every step was putting extra stress on the wall.the casts but I would be reluctant to take his level of comfort as anthat help the hoof to heal during the period you did it?put on when fully weightbearing does that not mean that the hoof wallMaybe the reason they work is because they allow the horse more comfortblood supply and boosts healing ability of the hoof?then progress ones every month or so. That way we could all get to seehow effective they are. Would that be possible Lorna?the by thecast in combination with a shoe. Anytime the hoofwall is lifted 4means of a shoe, more peripheral hoofwall loading is created. thetimes,is comfortable when his hoof stands on a shoe,either inside comfortablecasts or inside a boot(with frog/sole support),and not when
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Ute wrote:
Horse's hooves are biomechanically designed to be fully loaded during contact ( _Newly Discovered Shock Absorber in the Equine Foot_ http://www.hoofrehab.com/gelpad.htm). Hooves are naturally designed to flex and expand. It creates a suspension effect that is taken away by applying shoes, not to mention the instability and increase concussion they create.Amusing that you bring up this link again. Note that the sole is still functioning in the pictures (that's why the pictures are there, right?) even though only the wall is bearing weight ... I have seen most horses improve in laminitis/ founder cases by only applying correct trimming, diet and exercise. The only cases that we see fail are the ones where the coffin bone has deteriorated to a point if no return. In such cases it is usually kinder to euthanize the horse.Oh, what a shame. We have 2 list equines right now who have just about half a coffin bone left in both front feet AND ARE WALKING ABOUT every day in their hoof casts. One of them has even been caught trotting and bucking! I think they're both pretty glad we didn't give up. The Equicast system also claims that it helps horses with navicular. One common theme in navicular horses is generally a deformed hoof capsule, usually created by incorrect trimming (leaving heels to high and causing incorrect tow loading) Incorrect trimming, yes, but not all navicular horses have high heels. Many have severely crushed heels, in spite of keeping them short. I would say a common theme is also weak digital cushion, which is absolutely, positively addressed by hoof casts. in combination with shoes that are too small for the horse's foot (causing also contraction). Those hooves need to be allowed to expand as much as possible to heal. Using a cast that is rigid to a certain degree will most likely interfere with the progress. Most likely? Not really feeling motivated to go on about this one. Try it or not, but please don't start making things up. I also dislike the statement on the Equicast site also claims that boots poorly fit and cost a lot of money. Some maybe pricey, but correctly fitted, quality boots do work very well for a year or more and can be taken off at the end of the day.I agree with that too, and if boots will do the trick for my clients I much prefer them. They're not casts though. Not by a long shot. -A -- ************************** Abby Bloxsom www.advantedgeconsulting.com
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Abby Bloxsom wrote:
Oh, what a shame. We have 2 list equines right now who have just about half a coffin bone left in both front feet AND ARE WALKING ABOUT every day in their hoof casts. One of them has even been caught trotting and bucking!Oops my bad! I just remembered that THAT little lady is no longer wearing casts. The last trim she was comfortable enough that I was able to leave her barefoot, wearing her Sabre Sneakers. -A -- ************************** Abby Bloxsom www.advantedgeconsulting.com
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