Keeping a horse usable
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Dear List
Wanted to address the issue of making a horse usable through masking pain because it has come up a couple of times in this thread.
In the five years I've been on the three EC lists, I have never seen anyone knowingly advocate this kind of behavior. Let me say that again - I have NEVER seen anyone knowingly advocate this kind of behavior. That list includes horse owners, vets, hoof pros, members, moderators or list owners. In fact, as was demonstrated by the origins of this thread, the basis of the list is quite the contrary. Every day folks are striving to find the best way to help their horses heal. We are each learning how to get the correct diagnosis, feed to support good health, understand what the hoof needs at a given time for comfort and repair and, finally, what kind of movement and exercise is safe for continued rehab. Thanks for letting me get this off my chest. And for playing nice. Nancy C EC Hoof Co-moderator
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Ute <ute@...>
I would essentially say the same, but I think this
statement comes from the fact that a horse may appear to be sound, just after a
new shoeing management solution has been applied, like egg bar shoes for
example. But then eventually the horse breaks down further. We need to ask the
question as to why this happens, and does this mean the horse was really not
sound and the shoes only masked the problem? In this case we would have caused
more suffering needlessly.
I know of a case where the horse is acicular. Owner
could not bear to see the horse sore barefooted. Hoof decontraction takes a long
time and can be painful and he was slowly improving. Owner had shoes put
back on. He appears to be sound in Natural balance shoes but as soon as he goes
back to normal shoes he's off again. This to me indicates that the horse is not
really sound and that the Natural Balance shoes are simply masking the
discomfort. The owner has been riding the horse. Now the question becomes it
this fair to the horse?
We have to remember too that horses are prey
animals. They are very good at hiding discomfort that would target as easy
prey until they get to a point where the body can no longer compensate and
breaks down. At this stage a lot of damage has often been done. I believe that
it is our responsibility to prevent this from happening as much as possible and
be observant for early signs.
To come back to the case above, if I as a
professional see a pattern like this with a particular solution, I feel that I
have the obligation to question this treatment option and look for a better
approach. Unfortunately this seems to be much to rare and does cause horses
needless suffering. It does causes actually lame horse to be used under saddle,
although it seems to the owner, farrier and vet that the horse is now sound.
This quite possibly is a rather huge misconception for the reasons stated
above!
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe - LMT/LAMT NCTMB Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
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Ute -
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I think you missed the point of my message. I know you haven't been here long. But if you do continue to read, you will see that exactly your concerns are taken into consideration when viewing each case history or request for help as an individual. I'll stand by my original statement. We are looking to heal horses, not mask pain. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not mean to imply that the folks here who have been forth coming with their backgrounds and experiences don't understand or recognize the issues you raise. Not sure exactly to whom you are preaching and why. I'd appreciate it if you could back it down a notch as has been requested a few times on this list and others, in favor a more pleasant collegial exchange so that all may learn. Nancy C EC Hoof Moderator Abby had asked a few questions as to level of experience and, since you
On Feb 24, 2008, at 11:49 AM, Ute wrote: I would essentially say the same, but I think this statement comes from the fact that a horse may appear to be sound, just after a new shoeing management solution has been applied, like egg bar shoes for example. But then eventually the horse breaks down further. We need to ask the question as to why this happens, and does this mean the horse was really not sound and the shoes only masked the problem? In this case we would have caused more suffering needlessly.
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Claire Vale <clairevale@...>
Hi Ute,
Like you, I’m most definitely opposed to ‘hiding’ pain and then using the horse while damage is still being caused. However, there’s a line there somewhere – a point where you’re removing enough discomfort that the animal can now more more correctly, and healing IS allowed. In many cases it’s achieved by correct balance alone; other times some form of artificial ‘support’ system is needed to help. But let’s face it, the horses on this list aren’t the average every day cases, or they would never have come here in the first place. Chances are, a horse on this list is a chronic and/or extreme case, that has not responded to common methods of treatment. Yes, we’ll suggest the logical stuff to begin with (making sure the feet are correctly balanced, etc), but when it’s clear that all those routes have been taken without success, it’s time to start considering the less common techniques.
Tell me, do you ever suggest boots and or pads to help in rehab / transition? And if so, why? They’re commonly suggested as a way of improving comfort – where’s the difference between that and appropriately used shoes (okay, yes, boots can be removed, but how many horses do you know of in them 24/7)? It comes back to the assumption that all shoes are always bad – not a safe blanket statement.
Claire Vale New Zealand
From: ECHoof@...
[mailto:ECHoof@...] On Behalf Of Ute
I would essentially say the same, but I think this statement comes from the fact that a horse may appear to be sound, just after a new shoeing management solution has been applied, like egg bar shoes for example. But then eventually the horse breaks down further. We need to ask the question as to why this happens, and does this mean the horse was really not sound and the shoes only masked the problem? In this case we would have caused more suffering needlessly.
I know of a case where the horse is acicular. Owner could not bear to see the horse sore barefooted. Hoof decontraction takes a long time and can be painful and he was slowly improving. Owner had shoes put back on. He appears to be sound in Natural balance shoes but as soon as he goes back to normal shoes he's off again. This to me indicates that the horse is not really sound and that the Natural Balance shoes are simply masking the discomfort. The owner has been riding the horse. Now the question becomes it this fair to the horse?
We have to remember too that horses are prey animals. They are very good at hiding discomfort that would target as easy prey until they get to a point where the body can no longer compensate and breaks down. At this stage a lot of damage has often been done. I believe that it is our responsibility to prevent this from happening as much as possible and be observant for early signs.
To come back to the case above, if I as a professional see a pattern like this with a particular solution, I feel that I have the obligation to question this treatment option and look for a better approach. Unfortunately this seems to be much to rare and does cause horses needless suffering. It does causes actually lame horse to be used under saddle, although it seems to the owner, farrier and vet that the horse is now sound. This quite possibly is a rather huge misconception for the reasons stated above!
BALANCED
STEP
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Jeanette
From personal experience, I can say there **is** a place for pain
relief that allows the body -- whether equine or human -- to work through its health issues. This, of course, assumes those issues have been reasonably assessed. I think we all recognize that depending on the individual condition, there may be a time to rest and heal and/or a time to work and heal. When the time and path to health seems to be pushing on a bit, it's sometimes necessary to break the pain-tension-weakness cycle in order to address the abnormality or pathology and to encourage the body to become functionally stronger. As Nancy, Abby, Claire and others have pointed out, there's little healing in horse's feet that happens without movement. And you don't get movement, not the right kind of movement, without mitigating or eliminating the pain. As a back pain sufferer -- any others of those here? ;-) -- I know that not moving eventually hurts worse than taking a couple aspirin and stretching or lightly exercising through the discomfort. And as I get stronger, I can push a bit harder and I probably won't need the aspirin (or the back-brace or whatever) to aid the process anymore. But I have first to be comfortable enough to move -- and move correctly. (Pilates, anyone?) It seems to me that's the gist of what Abby's been saying, that she's found a tool that helps some horses who haven't really responded to anything else or who are so damaged that they're unlikely to. She's found a way to keep them more comfortable and correct so their bodies can heal. Doesn't sound like anyone's putting them back onto the race track or into a 3-day event. But they have to be comfortable enough to do more than lie down in a stall or stand and stare at the horizon. Also, frankly, understanding Val's frustration as the owner of an "un- usable" horse myself, I've followed this thread and the discussion of hoof casts with interest. No, I'm not ready to suggest that that's my next move -- because there are other less extreme things to try which may yet provide the relief my mare needs. But after a year of more downs than ups, it's feeling like a long haul, and I'm interested in what's working for other people. So, thanks, everyone for a fascinating conversation. The questions are ones I wouldn't necessarily have thought to ask and the responses have been thoughtful and considered. I'm learning a lot! Jeanette Colorado
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ranginui2007 <lynjwilliams@...>
Nancy,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I was responding to a specific example about using casts to keep a pony in work. I was also just stating my own ethical position - not intending to stand in judgment on other people. I have been in situations with horses where I'd have tried almost anything to save them - so I was not meaning to be critical. I happen to think that shoes are, by definition, palliative and find it hard to come up with a situation in which I would see them as either necessary or desirable. Again my experience and my opinion. As to casts - I am still exploring. I share what I have learned through my decades of experience as a consumer with conventional approaches and 5 years of various barefoot strategies both as consumer and practitioner, in the hope that it might be of some use to someone. It's my way of giving back to horses. I know that everyone on this list is here because they are deeply concerned about the welfare of horses - I wouldn't be here if that wasn't the case. Lynn - In ECHoof@..., Nancy Collins <threecatfarm@...> wrote:
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Ute wrote:
I know of a case where the horse is acicular.Is this a typo for "navicular", or is this a term I don't know? (sorry) Owner could not bear to see the horse sore barefooted. Hoof decontraction takes a long time and can be painful and he was slowly improving. Owner had shoes put back on. He appears to be sound in Natural balance shoes but as soon as he goes back to normal shoes he's off again. This to me indicates that the horse is not really sound and that the Natural Balance shoes are simply masking the discomfort.Actually, what this says to me is that for some reason the NB shoes feel better to the horse than "normal" shoes. What are normal shoes? I've seen an awful lot of shoeing that people call "normal" shoes that I wouldn't put my name on if you paid me. A lot of it by some really flippin' high-paid shoers. The owner has been riding the horse. Now the question becomes it this fair to the horse?If the horse is comfortable & the shoeing is not causing or worsening any deteriorating conditions, what could be unfair? The horse thinks he's fine. I personally want a horse to be shod optimally to prevent future problems. I'm a bit of a detail-freak that way. I don't think it's sensible to shoe a performance horse with a ticking time bomb on its feet. If you shoe him into a corner so that the only way out is a painful rehab, then that's dumb, but if the horse is COMFORTABLE in his work, then there's nothing unfair or immoral about that. This is really splitting hairs though, it's all interpretation, and there's no way to have a cogent discussion about it on a list like this. -Abby -- ************************** Abby Bloxsom www.advantedgeconsulting.com
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Thanks for a thoughtful post, Jeannette.
Jeanette wrote: Also, frankly, understanding Val's frustration as the owner of an "un- I guess the only thing I want to toss out tonight, Jeannette, is that after a year of using them the casts are no longer "extreme" in any way. They are so non-invasive and user friendly that they've become my go-to solution these days. Took me most of a year to get here, but I didn't think anything would excite me as much as Equi-Pak did when I started using that ... -A -- ************************** Abby Bloxsom www.advantedgeconsulting.com
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Ute <ute@...>
"I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you
did not mean to imply
that the folks here who have been forth coming with their backgrounds and experiences don't understand or recognize the issues you raise." This is correct. I raised the issue in general
because I keep seeing it in reality over and over again.
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe - LMT/LAMT NCTMB Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
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Ute <ute@...>
Absolutely do I recommend boots and pads and some
severe laminitis founder case do wear them successfully almost 24/7 (They are
removed only a few hours during the day). I do not support the use of metal
shoes because they tend to
I would love to hear feedback from a human with
plantar fasciitis or other heel pain and who would be made to walk in shoes that
have a metal plate, similar to a horse's shoe, attached to bottom of their
shoes. Why do we expect metal horse shoes to be the right solution for hooves
when humans shoes are designed as cushy as possible while being supportive at
the same time?
I believe that one of the reasons the barefoot
movement started was because many horse owners, who's horses had trouble
with their feet, had tried all possible shoeing solutions and finally gave up,
pulled the shoes and turned the horse out to pasture, expecting it to be a
pasture ornament for the rest of its life only find that one day they had a
totally sound horse again.
As mentioned before, I tend to see the shod horses
may appear to be sound for a while, only to break down further later. That's one
of the main reasons I am no longer sold on shoes, at least metal shoes. It
would be nice to have clinical studies that would follow horses with the same
condition being rehabilitated, except one with shoes and one without and what
the possible differences are. In the meantime I'll try to listen to the horses
as best as I can to determine what is the best solution for each individual
- they always tell me and so far it has not been shoes. :-)
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe - LMT/LAMT NCTMB Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
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