Looking for second (or third) opinion


Valeree Smith
 
Edited

Looking for second opinion on attached rads.  These were taken 1 week after pulling shoes and wedge pads and trimming.  Horse is still barefoot and not sound. 

I’m frequently caught between my farrier and vet as they are almost never in agreement.  The medial lateral imbalance shown on the x-rays is one of the few things we are all in agreement with and that will be addressed.  The trim line drawn by the vet on the lateral view seems to be taking a fair amount of sole off and neither my farrier nor myself are comfortable with that.  He felt that the horse would wear the toe back on his own but did say he could take just a little more off.  But trimming to the line drawn wouldn’t leave enough sole for this 17+H DWB. He felt that leaving about an inch under the CB would work. 

I have a fair amount of history with this horse being on and off lame (and going long periods of time in between) both in shoes AND barefoot which is why I am so focused on this.  I would love to be able to keep him barefoot. 

Thanks in advance for any other opinions.

 

Valeree & Azzy

ECIR 09/03

https://ecir.groups.io/g/Hoof/album?id=272467
 


Josephine Trott
 

HI Valeree

Someone will chime in with expert advice, so my 2c worth.

Make sure diet is low sugar and mineral balanced.

Address medial lateral imbalance
Keep toe trimmed every 2-3 weeks
Make sure you address any kind of frog issues so the rear of the hoof is as healthy as possible
Rocker the heels
Give the hooves time to heal being barefoot

Do you have boots & pads for him so he’s more comfortable moving around barefoot? Does he have a bounding pulse in his feet?

My 17hh warmblood transitioned to barefoot in 2009. He’s still going at age nearly 28 and been barefoot ever since 2009. I competed Grand Prix dressage with him barefoot at age 21. He’s now rock crunching sound with feet that in 2009 I thought I'd never get out of boots. Also, he had bullnose hind feet (indicating negative coffin plane angle, which is the issue with your guy) when I took his shoes off and they corrected over time with just regular conservative trimming. I never trim sole unless it’s flaking off


Josephine Trott
Davis CA Joined 2009


talley_catherine@...
 

Hi Valeree, Apologies if this is of no help at all and I do not profess to be a hoof expert but am curious about your thoughts .... if the farrier trims him like the vet wants, it looks like that will put the pedal bone at a negative angle?  From my experience and exploration around the subject, heel and sole is pretty critical for laminitis healing (as well as proper hoof function). How much of a "farrier" is your vet? I have had vets give me all sorts of weird advice so I have learned to trust my gut a lot too and be a bit pushy for explanations/further investigations when I am not confident about their decisions. My current vet will give observations, but will pretty much leave it up to the farrier on the "how to" aspects. He also is perhaps a bit less proactive in that respect as he doesn't like to be too prescriptive but is more "diagnostic". 
--
Cathy
Saskia (and 6 other horses!)

NSW, Australia
Joined Jan 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271799
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cathy%20and%20Saskia/Saskia_Case%20History_Jan%2021%202022.pdf

 


talley_catherine@...
 

Also do you have any updated pictures of the hooves?
--
Cathy
Saskia (and 6 other horses!)

NSW, Australia
Joined Jan 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271799
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cathy%20and%20Saskia/Saskia_Case%20History_Jan%2021%202022.pdf

 


Valeree Smith
 

Hi Josephine,

Thanks for your reply.

I've been toying with the idea of boots, but my arthritic hands probably wouldn't appreciate having to put them on and take them off.

There's a lot of variety in the hoof boot market these days.  Which ones did you like and use on your guy?

Valeree


Jeanne Q
 

Hi Valeree
I went through many of the boot options with my mare.  Because of her hoof tenderness and my arthritis I landed on the Easyboot Clouds.  My mare wore them comfortably and they are very easy on and off.  
--

Jeanne and Glory
Minnesota
Jan 2020 



Josephine Trott
 

Hi Valeree
I used hood wings. Probably not ideal for arthritic hands
Best
Josie


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Best boots are going to depend on what fits your horse the best. Ditto for what type of padding to use inside of them - or not. Then you need to consider the reasons you are using them: rehab, protection, work. The type of boot is likely going to change over time as the needs of the horse change.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Valeree,

Josephine gave you some good starting thoughts.

A few questions here: when the rads were done, were both feet standing on blocks when the views were shot or only the foot that was being viewed? This matters when you're trying to determine whether there are medio-lateral imbalances on the rads. Checking that both collateral groove depths in the foot are equal will help determine that.

On the lateral views, were the legs pulled forward onto the block or was Azzy standing squarely on the foot being viewed? Again, this matters as the positioning will influence the bony column alignment.

I agree with the general idea of the trim recommendations (but not with the amount of foot being removed) based on what the rads show IF the horse was standing square and both feet were on blocks at the time the views were take. Both feet are showing arthritic changes along the dorsal aspects of the pastern bones (ringbone), excess vertical hoof height and ground parallel coffin bones (if Azzy was standing square). Those changes may be enough to cause some transient discomfort whenever the HPA is altered during a trim. That doesn't mean you don't make corrections, just that you trim more frequently so that you maintain the ideal angles and make any changes are minor as possible. Both HPAs are slightly broken back, with RF a bit more so. See these articles for more on determining the proper amount of sole:

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HeelHeight.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsesSole.html

Seeing a full set of current hoof photos would also be helpful.

--
Lavinia
Jan 2005, RI

Moderator/ECIR Support


 

Hi, Valeree,
I can't muscle anything with my arthritic hands. I hate to say it, but for me it was a fool's errand to try to buy boots before the trim was in place. Once that is nailed, you can get very tight good hoof measurements (measure multiple time exactly at the places that particular boot brand wants) and then look at the various brands to see which one has the closest fit. It doesn't sound like you need a full on therapeutic (read laminitic horse) boot like Easyboot Clouds or Softride boots. Finding the right boot your horse can manage for 12 hours straight is a different job than finding a riding boot or a therapeutic boot.

My most recent experience was with a suddenly 3 legged lame mare (who, it turns out after we found it 2-3 months later, had a sub solar abscess). She hated therapeutic boots with thick pads. To get her comfortable in boots many hours a day (24/7 turnout), I settled on Easyboot Trails. They are less clunky than therapeutic boots but still plenty thick with Velcro fasteners. Look at the EasyCare website for options for pleasure boots.  Easyboot Epics were a non-starters because of the wire clips.

Pads are an even more trial and error proposition. As a longtime sufferer of plantar fasciitis, I know that more is not more for comfort. Tiny details about the placement of cushioning is more important than having thick cushioning everywhere. My mare liked a thin flat pad, like the Cavallo gel pad. I mention this so you are prepared for some experimentation in thickness of the pads. The boots themselves have a sole that is almost an inch thick. That's a lot of rubber stuff.

For riding, I love Renegades. I was lucky enough to have a trimmer who fit them to the T. They have never moved, turned or come off, and my mare is a wonky gaited mover with lots of pronation. 

Other brands: Cavallo (I couldn't get them to fit), Scoot Boots, and maybe half a dozen house brands.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse Case History                Cayuse Photos
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Valeree Smith
 

Sadly, just now getting back to this so thank you to all for the responses.

The trim has yet to be corrected.  The one day my farrier was able to stop by (he comes from a distance) we had gale force winds. I won't risk horse or shoer in the winds we get.

Yes, both feet were on blocks.  Yes, his legs were underneath him.  As of this morning, he is still off but now it's different than before.  Yes, I should have taken B4 and after videos but I will try to get hoof pics.

The lovely free shouldered stride he used to have is gone.  The classic heel first landing that he could have been the poster child for is also gone.  He's not landing toe first, but lands more on the front of his foot.  (It's hard to get video and handle the horse at the same time and I have few options for help.)

To say this is frustrating is an understatement.  I'm aware of the ringbone (I used to think it was that simple) but trying not to aggravate that while keeping an eye on the flat CB and the HPA angle is above my pay grade.

Thanks for listening.

Valeree & Azzy