Manda's most recent trim pix


Jeanette
 

I've posted photos taken just a couple days after Manda's most recent
trim, done a week ago. I know we still have a ways to go and, just a
week after her trim, I can see that I need to re-roll the hoof walls to
minimize flaring and relieve quarters a bit. I plan to re-do x-rays
this spring.

Comments, please. I shared Dr. K's and Abby's comments with my
farrier, and we did our best to follow through. I keep telling myself
this situation was years in the making and started long before I got
her, but everything -- except the flaring ;-) -- seems to move so
slowly.

Anyway, TIA.

Jeanette
Colorado


Jeanette
 

Hmmm...probably easy enough to figure out, but to save time: Manda's
photos are in album by that name. J

--- In ECHoof@..., "Jeanette" <jrlaur46@...> wrote:

I've posted photos taken just a couple days after Manda's most recent
trim,


Abby Nemec
 

Jeanette wrote:
I've posted photos taken just a couple days after Manda's most recent trim, done a week ago. I know we still have a ways to go and, just a week after her trim, I can see that I need to re-roll the hoof walls to minimize flaring and relieve quarters a bit.
Well done, Jeanette. I'd say you can roll the walls a little if you feel like you need to, but if I were doing this one, I would leave them where they are for about 2-3 weeks, and then cut the toes back. Just the toes, and aggressively - right into the sole, behind the white line, without touching anything else.

The idea there is to change the forces on the foot. You can't do it yet because she's still adapting to the first set of changes you made, and if you cut the toe back while the foot is still recovering you're putting increased pressure on stressed structures.

-Abby



--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


Jeanette
 

--- In ECHoof@..., Abby Bloxsom <dearab@...> wrote:

...you can roll the walls a little if you
feel like you need to, but if I were doing this one, I would leave
them
where they are for about 2-3 weeks, and then cut the toes back. Just
the toes, and aggressively - right into the sole, behind the white
line,
without touching anything else.
Thanks, Abby for the encouragement.

Hmm, well, I've been looking at those feet for a week and thinking the
toes still need to come back a bit, so last evening -- after posting
here -- I decided to roll the toes a bit. Right fore, worked just as
I'd planned. Took the toe back just a hair and rolled all around.

But the left -- about three downward strokes from above center front
with the rasp and there was pink in the exposed white -- no blood or
weeping -- just a bit of a pink/red line. Oops! Sole! Panic! Stop! So
I did. Whew, not too close to the heart ... ;-)

And I put her back in boots. The good news, I guess, is that she
doesn't seem any the worse for wear today. But I'll keep my hands off
the rasp as my farrier is due back 3 weeks from tomorrow.

Thanks again, Abby, for taking the time to look at the photos. After
more than a year of this -- with a local trimmer, not my farrier, doing
the work until the end of last year -- I'm glad to think we may be
starting to make some progress.

Jeanette
Colorado


ranginui2007 <lynjwilliams@...>
 

Hi Jeannette
You are doing well with your trimming - you've come a long way. I'd
like to see more rapid progress on the heels personally - to reduce
pressure on the laminae at the toe. As the horse has pretty extensive
remodelling of the pedal bone you want to unload it asap. Heels on RF
especially are still too high in my opinion. Also what you describe
you found when you rasped the LF toe - if I'm understanding you
correctly - is evidence of white line damage - by the time the white
line reaches ground level the damage you are seeing is already a few
weeks old - depending on the distance of the pedal bone to the ground
at that point. Reddening of the WL is indicative of tearing of the
laminae - slight bleeding into the white line horn. What matters is
not so much what you are seeing at ground level now, as whether the
forces that caused it while the horn was still attached to the bone,
are still present. Those forces are high heels and/or the horse not
loading the caudal foot correctly and/or an overly long toe which is
exerting a lever force on breakover. The horse still lacks toe height
so I would keep in mind the critical importance of low, comfortable
heels and optimal breakover.
It's a balancing act - but her feet look heaps better.
One other thing - has the horse always stocked up in the hinds like
that? To me the hind feet look too shallow - ie the toe angle of the
hoof capsule looks shallower than is normal for a hind limb pedal bone
(usually around 55 degrees when ground parallel. A long toe (length
not height) causes a delayed breakover and can place a strain on the
laminar connection at the toe.
Lynn

--- In ECHoof@..., "Jeanette" <jrlaur46@...> wrote:

--- In ECHoof@..., Abby Bloxsom <dearab@> wrote:

...you can roll the walls a little if you
feel like you need to, but if I were doing this one, I would leave
them
where they are for about 2-3 weeks, and then cut the toes back. Just
the toes, and aggressively - right into the sole, behind the white
line,
without touching anything else.
Thanks, Abby for the encouragement.

Hmm, well, I've been looking at those feet for a week and thinking the
toes still need to come back a bit, so last evening -- after posting
here -- I decided to roll the toes a bit. Right fore, worked just as
I'd planned. Took the toe back just a hair and rolled all around.

But the left -- about three downward strokes from above center front
with the rasp and there was pink in the exposed white -- no blood or
weeping -- just a bit of a pink/red line. Oops! Sole! Panic! Stop! So
I did. Whew, not too close to the heart ... ;-)

And I put her back in boots. The good news, I guess, is that she
doesn't seem any the worse for wear today. But I'll keep my hands off
the rasp as my farrier is due back 3 weeks from tomorrow.

Thanks again, Abby, for taking the time to look at the photos. After
more than a year of this -- with a local trimmer, not my farrier, doing
the work until the end of last year -- I'm glad to think we may be
starting to make some progress.

Jeanette
Colorado


Abby Nemec
 

Jeanette wrote:
But the left -- about three downward strokes from above center front with the rasp and there was pink in the exposed white -- no blood or weeping -- just a bit of a pink/red line. Oops! Sole! Panic! Stop! So I did. Whew, not too close to the heart ... ;-)
That pink in the white line is from an episode a long time ago. Believe it or not, even if it's a bright red line in there, you will do no harm filing through it. Those marks can be from laminar strain, abscessing episodes, bad fever ... lots of things. It's all old history though, and no harm done whatsoever.

-A

--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


Jeanette
 

Thanks, Abby & Lynn, for the assurance that I haven't done any
damage. I suspected as much after I thought about it a bit, but as
an amateur at this felt it best to err on the side of caution. :-&#92;

Lynn, in response to your question about Manda's stocking up behind:
It's been an issue as long as I've had her -- 3 years now. Her
previous owner said she stocked up if she was fed even a little
alfalfa and not working. After having her awhile I decided the issue
was more lack of movement than what she eats (tho' I feed no
alfalfa). That said, her hinds have been a challenge from the first.
I wish I had photos of what they looked like when the mare first
came!

My impression is that her hind toes seem "long" now that we've
brought the heels down some -- is that what you mean by "shallow
angle," Lynn? What's especially interesting with lowering the heels
has been the relative position of the bulge on her RH. It's
obviously from an old wound 'cause when the hair is wet, the place
where she sliced herself is plain. But when we took the heels on her
hinds down -- **really** down -- and made sure the medial heel was
equal to or lower than the outside, the bulge has become less
evident. It's still there, of course, but not so evident at a
glance.

I should revue some of my earlier photos from last spring to see what
changes actually have happened. It's hard to evaluate on a day-to-
day basis, especially with everything else -- Cushings, IR, etc. --
going on.

Thanks, again, both of you.

Jeanette
Colorado


Jeanette
 

My impression is that her hind toes seem "long" now that we've
brought the heels down some -- is that what you mean by "shallow
angle," Lynn?
I realized as I looked at Manda's hind feet this morning that I phrased
my question poorly. It seems to me, from the top anyway, that those
hinds need to be brought back, hence your comment about "optimal
breakover". Is that more to the point?

Jeanette
Colorado


ranginui2007 <lynjwilliams@...>
 

Yes - if you follow a line of around 55 degrees (assuming a healthy
bone) - from the coronet to the ground - that's where the breakover
should be. Often hind hoof capsules end up at a shallower angle than
the fronts - (the horse is standing under behind to unload sore front
feet or is trying to avoid pain in the toe region in the hinds. A hoof
capsule of 45 degrees and a bone of 55 degrees which means the toe
region is subjected to greater lever forces from the ground on
breakover. If the pedal bone is at all rotated forward because of high
heels - the difference between the bone and capsule angles is even
greater - and the lever forces are that much greater also. Sometimes
the horse will land toe out to find a comfortable breakover.

How old is the mare? I'm sorry I don't know much about her history.

Lynn

--- In ECHoof@..., "Jeanette" <jrlaur46@...> wrote:

My impression is that her hind toes seem "long" now that we've
brought the heels down some -- is that what you mean by "shallow
angle," Lynn?
I realized as I looked at Manda's hind feet this morning that I phrased
my question poorly. It seems to me, from the top anyway, that those
hinds need to be brought back, hence your comment about "optimal
breakover". Is that more to the point?

Jeanette
Colorado


ranginui2007 <lynjwilliams@...>
 

Have posted a couple of pics to illustrate what I mean about the toe
angle.
Also - a couple on the lateral bar (LH) which is lying across the sole
in the heel bar triangle. The red arrow indicates the full extent and
depth of the bar at the widest point. That whole area of heel and bar
needs to be taken off the sole. I know this is an area of fierce
debate but, in a healthy hoof, that area is sole - not heel and not
bar. Under that hard horn is solar corium - trying to get out. My
third pic shows where the bar and heel should sit - the bar is
outlined in pink. You can see how much sole would be liberated by
removing it.

Lynn


--- In ECHoof@..., "ranginui2007" <lynjwilliams@...> wrote:

Yes - if you follow a line of around 55 degrees (assuming a healthy
bone) - from the coronet to the ground - that's where the breakover
should be. Often hind hoof capsules end up at a shallower angle than
the fronts - (the horse is standing under behind to unload sore front
feet or is trying to avoid pain in the toe region in the hinds. A hoof
capsule of 45 degrees and a bone of 55 degrees which means the toe
region is subjected to greater lever forces from the ground on
breakover. If the pedal bone is at all rotated forward because of high
heels - the difference between the bone and capsule angles is even
greater - and the lever forces are that much greater also. Sometimes
the horse will land toe out to find a comfortable breakover.

How old is the mare? I'm sorry I don't know much about her history.

Lynn

--- In ECHoof@..., "Jeanette" <jrlaur46@> wrote:

My impression is that her hind toes seem "long" now that we've
brought the heels down some -- is that what you mean by "shallow
angle," Lynn?
I realized as I looked at Manda's hind feet this morning that I
phrased
my question poorly. It seems to me, from the top anyway, that those
hinds need to be brought back, hence your comment about "optimal
breakover". Is that more to the point?

Jeanette
Colorado


Jeanette
 

Thanks, Lynn, for the clarificiation of angle. Your mark-ups and
others I've received are really helpful.

Re: trimming the bars. Shelley did, in fact, trim bars this time at Dr.
K's suggestion. She took them down to, I think she said, ~1/16" above
live sole. For the first time in a long while, she actually trimmed
into sole and frog a wee bit to show me just where they are -- and
they're right there! I think you can see where's she's trimmed in the
photos. The mare is developing a little concavity, but neither frog
nor sole has much extra wiggle room.

Nancy, your comment about "how much, how soon" Shelley addressed as she
worked last trim. She commented that the bars were still overlaid,
especially in the hind that Lynn marked up, but that because of the
amount of sensitivity this mare shows in her feet (without extra warmth
or pulse, BTW), she didn't want to do anything too extreme and we'd
just keep after them as seems appropriate.

We haven't put hoof testers on her in several months, but through most
of last year when I had another trimmer/farrier working on her, she
tested positive most of the time. I judge it by how comfortable she is
out of boots, and so far she seems happier in than out.

With the previous trim we took heels down and I really think that
helped. The mare had been shifting/dancing from back leg to back leg
and that went away immediately after the heel-reducing (especially
medial heel) trim. I've also noticed that despite the way Manda's
standing in some of the photos -- she tends to lean back in the cross
ties -- when she's at liberty in her run or the round pen, she's
**much** more square than I've ever seen her. She's both cow-hocked
and pigeon toed -- I can't believe someone actually seems to have bred
this mare! -- but both have been **somewhat** mitigated over the past 2-
3 months since Shelley returned to trimming for me. And that's largely
thanks to many of you who have so kindly constructively critiqued.

Abby, I'll share your comments with Shelley about backing up the hinds
as I've felt we left them too long this trimming. I just haven't
managed to take hind feet on yet and, in the past, haven't usually
needed to. But our footing is super soft these days, so even on pea
gravel there's not much wear going on.

Oh, Lynn, the mare is about 16, supposedly registered QH, cushings, IR,
and chronically laminitic. I brought her up to Colorado from southern
Arizona 3 years ago. With her I've come to realize that "easy keeper"
actually means "high maintenance." ;-) After 25 years with horses,
there's always something new to learn.

Thanks again, All, for your time and comments. Tho' I shouldn't really
speak for her, I think my trimmer finds them interesting and helpful as
well.

Jeanette


Nancy C
 

It is a constant amazement to me that, in any hoof discussion, results so depend on the interpretation of the the art.

Thanks for sharing, Jeanette, so we all can learn.

Nancy C.

On Mar 15, 2008, at 7:22 PM, Jeanette wrote:

Nancy, your comment about "how much, how soon" Shelley addressed as she 
worked last trim. She commented that the bars were still overlaid, 
especially in the hind that Lynn marked up, but that because of the 
amount of sensitivity this mare shows in her feet (without extra warmth 
or pulse, BTW), she didn't want to do anything too extreme and we'd 
just keep after them as seems appropriate.