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New X rays, good and bad news

Jax The Wonder Cat <jaxthewondercat@...>
 

I got Summer's new X rays this week.  This time I had a lateral view of each (last time I could only do 2 views of the worst one but we figured the other was probably similar). 
 
To review laminitis and sinking were subsequent to a systemic vasculitis and infection in Aug 07. First X rays in fall (I forget exactly but Sep or Oct) showed no rotation on one foot, very minimal on the other but total sinking on both (about 3 mm sole depth between P3 and ground).  Significant depression or ledge (?) above coronary band.  Little pain, normal stance.  Through Jan. constant abscessing, wore MAC boots and various poultices/duct tape booties inside. 
 
Couldn't afford the blood test but changed diet to IR diet (she hates it) as she is very typical in build to an IR TB, she does not have any Cushings symptoms or appearance.
 
Next X ray RF Dec. 27 showed 13 degrees rotation, 10mm sole depth.  Could only afford one so did the one abscessing the most! 
 
  LF finally quit abscessing  in Dec. sometime, RF continued on with nothing to support bone.  Just a tap on her foot threw her into a major spazz.  We were going to block her feet to get shoes on when we decided to try the equicast.  Wish I'd done that in Oct.  Sigh...
 
Abscesses stopped but had to keep boots on because was too ouchy with just the cast.  Next time added backward shoes (no nails) and that made a huge difference.  BUT we can't get the LF to stay on more than 3 weeks, she has NO heel at all. So the LF sometimes goes a week or three without (usually 1-2, three this time, HOPING farrier can come this weekend)  RF is holding on by a hair, if it last til this weekend I'll be surprised!  I'm pleased it has held out so long though, last time it only went 4 weeks. This foot has more heel.
 
SO now new X rays show RF improved to 10 degrees rotation and now up to 12.79 sole depth.  Unfortunately the LF shows 13 degrees rotation and he forgot to put the sole depth but it looks (with my great eye...) about 8-9 mm?  Significantly less than RF anyway.  The good news is the depression/ledges above coronary bands are gone.  What is the sole depth we are aiming for anyway?  Besides getting the bones back to normal position.  =)
 
The bad news is she is more ouchy at the trot when she wasn't before.  BUT could that be good news really as before everything was dead or crushed and the fact that now she feels pain means that circulation and nerve growth is re-establishing??   Right, huh huh?  =)  I would rather not put her on bute again as she got acid stomach or ulcers last time after tolerating it well for months.  She is on UGuard and aloe vera juice for that.  She's also on isoxuprine, Vit E and some laminitis supplement I forget the name of. 
 
first two. the next two are from dec.27.  Her toes are long because she's overdue, I like to get her done once a month but hard to get farrier out that often, he's just doing her single self as a favor to me.
 
OK, now the questions!
 
I have no idea what to do about the LF.  It is not improving as fast as the other one and pulling off the shoe/cast doesn't help.  However without the shoe the cast stayed on very well.  Is there a way to build the cast up extra to make up for not having the shoe on? Like just put another cast over the first but concentrate on the shoe area to sort of make a cast shoe?   IF we could get any nails in I'm afraid if she steps on it again she'll just yank it off along with some feeble hoof wall she can't afford to lose. 
 
If we do go sans shoe on left is it OK to have the shoe still on the RF?  That isn't much height difference is it?  Which is the lesser of the evils?  shoe/cast that comes off at 3 weeks or cast alone?  Or maybe the shoe the regular way, would that be enough support?  Not sure if we're at the point where we can nail a shoe on over the cast yet.  Or under it for that matter!
 
She's on dry lot and wanders around quite a bit during the day.  I am starting to hand walk her down the road too to get more exercise. 
 
Does anyone have any ideas?  I'm out!  =(   jamie coughlin jaxthewondercat@...
Mandy Woods
 

Hi Jamie,
Abby must be out of town....until she responds to your questions I can tell you that I tried a 2 inch cast on Asher's RF to see if I could build a ledge on the edge of the wall to lift his sole off the ground.  The reason was because the shoe I was using didnt quite fit the trimmed foot.  Well,  I got the 2'' cast on fine!  Even got the 3'' cast over that!   It was ok and stayed on, but what a bear to get off!  I ended up going back to the shoe.  Are you using that epoxy glue to help set the cast?  You squease out a line around the hoof wall.
Mandy and Asher in VA
Jenny Edwards <jaennyedwards@...>
 

You have got to back those toes up *a lot*. That is why you are not getting any heel. The toes growing forward at that angle pull the heels under which prevents them from gaining height. Until you address that issue you will be fighting a loosing battle. You need to do this by vertically rasping the toe (so you don't shorten the height) and if it were my horse I would take it back to half way between the current position and the coffin bone. Using your measurements as a reference I would estimate that the right toe needs to come back about 15mm and the left about 10-12mm. By looking at the xrays and lining up a straight edge with the growth at the top of the hoof wall you can confirm where the toe should be brought back to. After you have done this the current shoe is going to be too big to use with the cast but you will have given the hoof the best chance to start to recover. 

Jenny Edwards

- information on all aspects of natural horse care 

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On 23-Apr-08, at 9:16 PM, Jax The Wonder Cat wrote:


I got Summer's new X rays this week.  This time I had a lateral view of each (last time I could only do 2 views of the worst one but we figured the other was probably similar). 
 
To review laminitis and sinking were subsequent to a systemic vasculitis and infection in Aug 07. First X rays in fall (I forget exactly but Sep or Oct) showed no rotation on one foot, very minimal on the other but total sinking on both (about 3 mm sole depth between P3 and ground).  Significant depression or ledge (?) above coronary band.  Little pain, normal stance.  Through Jan. constant abscessing, wore MAC boots and various poultices/duct tape booties inside. 
 
Couldn't afford the blood test but changed diet to IR diet (she hates it) as she is very typical in build to an IR TB, she does not have any Cushings symptoms or appearance.
 
Next X ray RF Dec. 27 showed 13 degrees rotation, 10mm sole depth.  Could only afford one so did the one abscessing the most! 
 
  LF finally quit abscessing  in Dec. sometime, RF continued on with nothing to support bone.  Just a tap on her foot threw her into a major spazz.  We were going to block her feet to get shoes on when we decided to try the equicast.  Wish I'd done that in Oct.  Sigh...
 
Abscesses stopped but had to keep boots on because was too ouchy with just the cast.  Next time added backward shoes (no nails) and that made a huge difference.  BUT we can't get the LF to stay on more than 3 weeks, she has NO heel at all. So the LF sometimes goes a week or three without (usually 1-2, three this time, HOPING farrier can come this weekend)  RF is holding on by a hair, if it last til this weekend I'll be surprised!  I'm pleased it has held out so long though, last time it only went 4 weeks. This foot has more heel.
 
SO now new X rays show RF improved to 10 degrees rotation and now up to 12.79 sole depth.  Unfortunately the LF shows 13 degrees rotation and he forgot to put the sole depth but it looks (with my great eye...) about 8-9 mm?  Significantly less than RF anyway.  The good news is the depression/ledges above coronary bands are gone.  What is the sole depth we are aiming for anyway?  Besides getting the bones back to normal position.  =)
 
The bad news is she is more ouchy at the trot when she wasn't before.  BUT could that be good news really as before everything was dead or crushed and the fact that now she feels pain means that circulation and nerve growth is re-establishing??   Right, huh huh?  =)  I would rather not put her on bute again as she got acid stomach or ulcers last time after tolerating it well for months.  She is on UGuard and aloe vera juice for that.  She's also on isoxuprine, Vit E and some laminitis supplement I forget the name of. 
 
first two. the next two are from dec.27.  Her toes are long because she's overdue, I like to get her done once a month but hard to get farrier out that often, he's just doing her single self as a favor to me.
 
OK, now the questions!
 
I have no idea what to do about the LF.  It is not improving as fast as the other one and pulling off the shoe/cast doesn't help.  However without the shoe the cast stayed on very well.  Is there a way to build the cast up extra to make up for not having the shoe on? Like just put another cast over the first but concentrate on the shoe area to sort of make a cast shoe?   IF we could get any nails in I'm afraid if she steps on it again she'll just yank it off along with some feeble hoof wall she can't afford to lose. 
 
If we do go sans shoe on left is it OK to have the shoe still on the RF?  That isn't much height difference is it?  Which is the lesser of the evils?  shoe/cast that comes off at 3 weeks or cast alone?  Or maybe the shoe the regular way, would that be enough support?  Not sure if we're at the point where we can nail a shoe on over the cast yet.  Or under it for that matter!
 
She's on dry lot and wanders around quite a bit during the day.  I am starting to hand walk her down the road too to get more exercise. 
 
Does anyone have any ideas?  I'm out!  =(   jamie coughlin jaxthewondercat@knology.net
John Stewart
 

Hi Jamie,
 
I agree with Jenny.
I have just added two photos in johnthevet - examples album. (the last two)
Foot of chronic laminitic - This looks (from your x ray) as though it is much the same shape as Summer's right foot.
This pony had cushing's and was put down about 6 months later.  The next one shows the foot cut, showing the very long toe.
 
This foot had been trimmed with a low heel, but the toe was left long. At least, by keeping the heel low, there seems to have been sufficient stability to keep the bone and the hoof wall lined up, until the laminar wedge starts from half way down the wall.  You can see (at the toe) when she had her last laminitic episode, but was a chronic laminitic from many years before.
I hope this helps
 
John

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: [ECHoof] New X rays, good and bad news

You have got to back those toes up *a lot*. That is why you are not getting any heel. The toes growing forward at that angle pull the heels under which prevents them from gaining height. Until you address that issue you will be fighting a loosing battle. You need to do this by vertically rasping the toe (so you don't shorten the height) and if it were my horse I would take it back to half way between the current position and the coffin bone. Using your measurements as a reference I would estimate that the right toe needs to come back about 15mm and the left about 10-12mm. By looking at the xrays and lining up a straight edge with the growth at the top of the hoof wall you can confirm where the toe should be brought back to. After you have done this the current shoe is going to be too big to use with the cast but you will have given the hoof the best chance to start to recover. 

Jenny Edwards

- information on all aspects of natural horse care 
Jax The Wonder Cat <jaxthewondercat@...>
 

Thanks everyone!  I didn't get on yesterday and I still need to read your comments and look at the pictures again.  I am having a time getting the farrier to back the toe up enough.  But I can't make him mad or he won't do her at all.  It's frustrating.  Of course right now they are 2 weeks over due so even longer. 
 
Yeah I was wondering how in heck that doubled cast would come off.  It's hard enough now!!  In fact I couldn't get them off on my own! 
 
I guess we need more glue too.   jamie

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