posted new xrays of Fifi's front feet


Ruth Davidson
 

Hi All:

I just had Fifi's feet xrayed again yesterday and posted them in her
folder (Fifi). I took her to a vet to have digital xrays made. They
are very clear. The rotation is severe. This vet is recommending that
we try shoeing her front feet to alieviate the the toe pain. He said
it may help and it may not, but worth trying. I will be taking Fifi
back to see him next Thursday when a farrier will be present and if I
decide to, will do the shoes on the spot and perhaps take more xrays?
not sure. All comments/recommendations appreciated! Can you look at
these too Claire? What do you think? She has been sore these past
weeks.

Thanks for looking at my pics.
ruth & fifi
Comox BC


Monaghan
 

Hi Ruth,

I would encourage you to consider hoof boots with pads for Fifi
(instead of the shoes). I have seen cases just as severe that were
helped tremendously by the pads and boots. The most recent case I
have seen went from dead lame in shoes (improper trim) and scheduled
for euthanasia :-( to trotting (in Epic EZ boots with pads) in 2
months time.

My best to Fifi and you.

Kathy

--- In ECHoof@..., "Ruth Davidson" <chezfifi@...> wrote:

Hi All:

I just had Fifi's feet xrayed again yesterday and posted them in
her
folder (Fifi). I took her to a vet to have digital xrays made.
They
are very clear. The rotation is severe. This vet is recommending
that
we try shoeing her front feet to alieviate the the toe pain. He
said
it may help and it may not, but worth trying. I will be taking
Fifi
back to see him next Thursday when a farrier will be present and
if I
decide to, will do the shoes on the spot and perhaps take more
xrays?
not sure. All comments/recommendations appreciated! Can you look
at
these too Claire? What do you think? She has been sore these
past
weeks.

Thanks for looking at my pics.
ruth & fifi
Comox BC


Ruth Davidson
 

Thanks for your thoughts Kathy. I read you message just minutes
before I had to leave to take Fifi to her appointment. Your advice
sounded
GOOD and I was ready to act on it. I thought I would be given a
choice, but what happened is that the vet and the farrier had the
discussion on what to do with Fifi without me! They decided between
themselves to go "heart bar shoes". I know I should have spoked up
but I guess I liked the fact they were spending so much time on my
horse and sounded so knowledgeable.

I was impressed with the farriers work, he was very, very precise and
worked according to the xrays. The shoes were custom made on the
spot. After he was finished, Fifi walked off without limping!! I
couldn't believe the difference. I did not let him put more than 2
nails on her worst foot (left front). The hammering was bothering
her a LOT and I DID speak up at that time.

They took xrays again after the shoes were set and studied them as
well. They will be emailing them to me, and when I get them I would
post them. All and all I think I did the right thing?! but I do know
we have a long way to go to soundness. This is step one. My goal
will be for her to be barefoot again. Her feet were diagnosed as 15
degree rotation on the left front and 11 degree on the left front.
along with the shoes, I was told she needed to loose 50 lbs. I have
been doing "the diet" (soaked hay, minerals and OD cubes). I am
trying my best and hoping for the best. She is loosing some weight.

ruth & fifi

--- In ECHoof@..., "Monaghan" <jmjmkrm@...> wrote:

Hi Ruth,

I would encourage you to consider hoof boots with pads for Fifi
(instead of the shoes). I have seen cases just as severe that were
helped tremendously by the pads and boots. The most recent case I
have seen went from dead lame in shoes (improper trim) and
scheduled
for euthanasia :-( to trotting (in Epic EZ boots with pads) in 2
months time.

My best to Fifi and you.

Kathy

--- In ECHoof@..., "Ruth Davidson" <chezfifi@> wrote:

Hi All:

I just had Fifi's feet xrayed again yesterday and posted them in
her
folder (Fifi). I took her to a vet to have digital xrays made.
They
are very clear. The rotation is severe. This vet is
recommending
that
we try shoeing her front feet to alieviate the the toe pain. He
said
it may help and it may not, but worth trying. I will be taking
Fifi
back to see him next Thursday when a farrier will be present and
if I
decide to, will do the shoes on the spot and perhaps take more
xrays?
not sure. All comments/recommendations appreciated! Can you
look
at
these too Claire? What do you think? She has been sore these
past
weeks.

Thanks for looking at my pics.
ruth & fifi
Comox BC


Monaghan
 

Hi Ruth,

I do hope for the best. I went through what you are going through
with my daughter's first pony, a little white Shetland named "Mr.
Cotton". I had an excellent vet and an excellent farrier. Instead
of bar shoes, they just reversed regular shoes on his front hooves.
The nailing process was extremely painful to him and after two or
three shoeing sessions, I insisted they stop. BTW, the "rotation"
worsened after the reverse shoes.

I do hope for the best for Fifi. I sympathize and empathize with
you and her. I still encourage you to look into the pads and hoof
boots. In the long run, I do feel that the hoof boots will allow
the hooves to be more comfortable and improve circulation which will
help her recovery.

Thanks so much for your post and my best thoughts are with you and
Fifi. I am in California. Whereabouts are you located?

ttys

Kathy

--- In ECHoof@..., "Ruth Davidson" <chezfifi@...> wrote:

Thanks for your thoughts Kathy. I read you message just minutes
before I had to leave to take Fifi to her appointment. Your
advice
sounded
GOOD and I was ready to act on it. I thought I would be given a
choice, but what happened is that the vet and the farrier had the
discussion on what to do with Fifi without me! They decided
between
themselves to go "heart bar shoes". I know I should have spoked
up
but I guess I liked the fact they were spending so much time on my
horse and sounded so knowledgeable.

I was impressed with the farriers work, he was very, very precise
and
worked according to the xrays. The shoes were custom made on the
spot. After he was finished, Fifi walked off without limping!! I
couldn't believe the difference. I did not let him put more than 2
nails on her worst foot (left front). The hammering was bothering
her a LOT and I DID speak up at that time.

They took xrays again after the shoes were set and studied them as
well. They will be emailing them to me, and when I get them I
would
post them. All and all I think I did the right thing?! but I do
know
we have a long way to go to soundness. This is step one. My goal
will be for her to be barefoot again. Her feet were diagnosed as
15
degree rotation on the left front and 11 degree on the left
front.
along with the shoes, I was told she needed to loose 50 lbs. I
have
been doing "the diet" (soaked hay, minerals and OD cubes). I am
trying my best and hoping for the best. She is loosing some
weight.

ruth & fifi

--- In ECHoof@..., "Monaghan" <jmjmkrm@> wrote:

Hi Ruth,

I would encourage you to consider hoof boots with pads for Fifi
(instead of the shoes). I have seen cases just as severe that
were
helped tremendously by the pads and boots. The most recent case
I
have seen went from dead lame in shoes (improper trim) and
scheduled
for euthanasia :-( to trotting (in Epic EZ boots with pads) in
2
months time.

My best to Fifi and you.

Kathy

--- In ECHoof@..., "Ruth Davidson" <chezfifi@> wrote:

Hi All:

I just had Fifi's feet xrayed again yesterday and posted them
in
her
folder (Fifi). I took her to a vet to have digital xrays
made.
They
are very clear. The rotation is severe. This vet is
recommending
that
we try shoeing her front feet to alieviate the the toe pain.
He
said
it may help and it may not, but worth trying. I will be
taking
Fifi
back to see him next Thursday when a farrier will be present
and
if I
decide to, will do the shoes on the spot and perhaps take more
xrays?
not sure. All comments/recommendations appreciated! Can you
look
at
these too Claire? What do you think? She has been sore these
past
weeks.

Thanks for looking at my pics.
ruth & fifi
Comox BC


Ruth Davidson
 

Hi Kathy:

I am in Comox on Vancouver Island, British Columbia. Land of the
rain and green rich grass! (unfortunatley)

I have few questions on Mr Cotton . . . was he comfortable in the
shoes at first and if so when did that change? I am worried about
what you said that his rotation continued with the shoes on. Was he
on the recommended diet etc? And, what kind of boots and pads do you
recommend? I have a borrowed pair of Old Macs that I was using
before Fifi got the front shoes, but I used them only while I
handwalked her. She didn't walk a whole lot better in the boots, but
I did not have pads in them either. I could try to make pads with
anti fatique mats and give that a try. I certainly want to do what
is best. So far she is still walking well in the shoes, and they are
still on tight even though there are only 2 nails holding them on.

The farrier comes back on August 10. I don't want him to reset the
shoes if the nailing is painful again. So we will then go the
barefoot with boot & pad route that you recommend.

I got a copy of Fifi's xrays with the shoes on today. I will try to
add them to my folder when I get a minute, too late in the night for
me now. Were Mr Cotton's shoes put on with the aid of xrays too?
Sorry for all the added questions . . . just need all the info I can
get.

I have been massaging the soles of Fifi's feet to aid in circulation
(TEAM circles), but I am sure the circulation would be better without
the shoes like you say. At this point though, she is walking around
more with the shoes on, than when she was barefoot. That could
change anytime though, so I will take it day by day.

Thank you so much for your interest and kind thoughts. Where in
California are you? I LOVE California.

Ruth & Fifi
Comox BC
Canada




Monaghan
 

Hi Ruth and Fifi,

. . . was he comfortable in the
shoes at first and if so when did that change? I am worried about
what you said that his rotation continued with the shoes on. Was
he on the recommended diet etc?

Yes, he did seem a little better in the shoes at first. From what I
understand now, since the shoes "fix" the hooves and do not allow
them to flex, they reduce circulation and that provides a numbing
effect. Also, I've read that metal shoes draw cold from the ground
up into the hoof, so that also has a numbing effect.

Yes, the rotation worsened with every shoeing. X-rays (radio
graphs) were taken prior to the shoeings and the vet advised the
shoer as to the trim. I believe it was at the third shoeing when I
decided that was it. The pain of pounding the nails into his hooves
was so great that he would clench his teeth and throw his head to
the sky with every blow. Also, abscesses developed at the site of
the nail holes which added to his discomfort.

At the time, the recommendations were: bute, complete stall rest in
a matted stall with deep shavings, reverse shoes, and a diet of oat
hay. I cannot tell you how miserable he was being confined like
this. As I understand it now, the oat hay can be high in sugar and
may have been contributing to his distress.

And, what kind of boots and pads do you
recommend? I have a borrowed pair of Old Macs that I was using
before Fifi got the front shoes, but I used them only while I
handwalked her. She didn't walk a whole lot better in the boots,
but
I did not have pads in them either. I could try to make pads with
anti fatique mats and give that a try. I certainly want to do
what
is best.

The boots that I have seen used ( I also bought a pair for our
little Lacey) are the EZ Boot Epics. Lacey is a small pony and I
cut the pads out of the anti-fatigue mat. The commercially
available comfort pads are much better and last longer.

http://www.easycareinc.com/Other_Products/Comfort_Pads.aspx

There is a new hoof boot coming out called the Renegade. I like the
looks of those, but they are not commercially available yet as far
as I know.

Oh, it is also recommended that you put Gold Bond Medicated Powder
in the hoof boots (this is a foot powder sold for humans) to combat
bacteria and fungus.

I live in the California foothills about 40 miles south east of
Sacramento. We, too, have a problem here with lush green grass in
the fall and spring.

I just received an email from my friend Sally Hugg who is a bare
hoof trimmer in the Oroville, CA area. Two months ago, I was
present for the intial shoe removal and trim on a foundered gelding
at Handi-Riders Theraputic Riding Center in Oroville. They had been
shoeing him without good results and were on the verge of putting
him down. Sally has done regular barefoot trims and fitted him with
EZ-Boots and comfort pads. She said that they are now returning him
to light duty as a theraputic riding horse.

I just feel that the boots and pads offer a kinder, more comfortable
alternative to the distressed hoof.

I am really interested in the fact that less nails were used on
Fifi's shoeing. It may be, that is allowing a bit more flexibility
for her hooves. Just a thought.

Well, hang in there! You are her advocate and her best friend! I'm
sure your instincts will lead you to a good solution!

Kathy
Ione, CA


Nancy Collins <threecatfarm@...>
 

Hi Kathy and Ruth

Just wanted to add to your conversation, if I may, that going the boot and pad root allows you to rasp the feet more regularly.  You might want to check Dr Kellon’s description of trimming laminitic feet, which is in the files section here on EC Hoof.  Many of the members have gone with shoeing at first to find that removing the shoes and more frequent trims were what was needed.  This is not a comment on shoes vs. barefoot in general, just on working with laminitic feet.

Ruth, Fifi is IR and/or Cushings, right? Did you take this conversation to the main list? If/when you get a full set of photos and new xrays feel free to bring this conversation there. (We’re posting the photos here and chatting about specific IR/Cushings horses there to get good input.  It will be a lively discussion but you should get lots of things to think about.  Check out the file “How to get good photos” for a complete description of what will get you the best input.

Kathy, like you I was told >>>
bute, complete stall rest in
a matted stall with deep shavings, reverse shoes, and a diet of oat
hay. I cannot tell you how miserable he was being confined like
this. As I understand it now, the oat hay can be high in sugar and
may have been contributing to his distress.<<<<<
 
...none of which worked for us either. :-\  


Nancy C and Beau and Gabe in NH





On 7/20/07 2:57 PM, "Monaghan" wrote:



                  
 
  
    
.
    



Ruth Davidson
 


Ruth, Fifi is IR and/or Cushings, right? Did you take this
conversation to
the main list? If/when you get a full set of photos and new xrays
feel free
to bring this conversation there. (We¹re posting the photos here and
chatting about specific IR/Cushings horses there to get good
input. >

Hi Nancy:

Thanks for your suggestions. I have just posted xrays of Fifi's
front feet with the shoes that she got July 12. This conversation is
not on the main list, I started it here with the first set of xrays
taken July 6/07. So far I have gotten some great help from Kathy on
what she has learnt from Lacey's similar ordeal.

My farrier returns August 10, he is expecting to be resetting the
shoes, so I will have to do all my homework done before then to make
an informed decision! I will print off Dr. Kellon's How to Trim the
Laminitic Foot, and have already downloaded the How to Take Proper
Photos to make new photos for comments.

Fifi is IR. She became laminitic from loosing a baby at somewhere
between 2 and 2 1&#92;2 months (she was ultrasounded pregnant at 21
days). I wasn't aware of her IR until after the laminitis and
finding this site. The vet had diagnosed "pre-cushings" and put her
on Pergolide which after her being on for 3 months had no effect.

I do have some borrowed Old Mac boots. She has been on a proper
diet/minerals since I found this site in January 2006.

ruth & fifi


PCfarm <pecciefarm@...>
 

Ruth wrote: I will print off Dr. Kellon's How to Trim the Laminitic Foot,

Where is that file found?

Thanks.
Linda


John Stewart
 

Hi Linda,
 
You might find helpful "How should we trim the chronic founder foot?" on my website, where I have tried to discuss the reasons why people have different opinions on trimming these feet.  www.johnthevet.com Laminitis/Farriery & Shoeing/Foot trimming, or as a Download.
 
John

----- Original Message -----
From: PCfarm
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [ECHoof] Re: posted new xrays of Fifi's front feet

Ruth wrote: I will print off Dr. Kellon's How to Trim the
Laminitic Foot,

Where is that file found?

Thanks.
Linda


Nancy Collins <threecatfarm@...>
 

Hi Linda

I may have confused you with my shorthand file name.  I am sorry if so...

Try this file in EC Hoof

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MIqkRj31ipSxBUH19vxPrGUn-WaINR13gJcZTLPdOguEktP3pcVvHIbAZXjHxluD2cXCd-5GxMoPrCF28Z8uIQ/Laminitis%20-%20Hoof%20mechanism.htm

If the link doesn’t work, it’s called Laminitis – Hoof Mechanism

In that file Dr Kellon talks about how the mechanism is affected by laminitis and how a trim may or may not affect the foot. She often talks about having the “shoe” meaning the hoof wall and outside structures, fit the “foot” meaning the internal structures.  I take that to mean that it can be different for every horse, depending upon where they are in the laminitic episode. So if the foot is trimmed incorrectly for where the internal structures  are, it’s like putting your foot into a shoe that doesn’t fit.  Keeping the “shoe” - the external structures - fitting correctly is usually best done on a more frequent trim schedule than we are used to.  Keeping them barefoot and in pads for comfort makes sense from that perspective.

Here’s a bit from message #
52244 on  the EC/IR list.  They are discussing a particular horse but I hope you get the idea from Dr Kellon’s input here.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2. With respect to what Rick said above, remember that the horse's
shoe is not what you choose to (or choose not to) nail onto it. The
horse's shoe is his hoof wall. Go to:

http://www.barefoothorse.com/barefoot_Strategy.html

and look at the photos about 1/3 of the way down the page. The hoof
must "fit" the foot inside it or it's going to cause pain, just like
a poorly fitted shoe does on your own foot. It's as simple, and as
complicated, as that. Step one is to master the anatomy.

3. While the merits vs bad points, pros and cons, of metal shoes are
debatable, since they are best described as devices or appliances,
not an integral part of the horse's anatomy, there are indeed certain
basics of the correct trim that are not open to debate. There is no
such thing as a laminitis trim, or a navicular trim, or a barefoot
trim with respect to the basic bottom line that the horse's hoof must
fit the structures inside it. That said, there are many points of
hot debate among advocates of various approaches as to the best way
to achieve that end, and differences in the way the foot is "dressed"
(particularly the sole) when trimming a healthy foot versus a
laminitic foot, but the end result, the goal, should be the same; to
make the hoof fit the foot inside it.

Those struggling to get a handle on hooves should go to the files and
read the two under "Hoof Care". Master the Duckett's Dot priciples
and you will be well on the way to understanding symmetry and how
form affects function.

Eleanor
>>>>>>>>>>>

The file that discusses Docket’s Dot principle is in FILES on ECHoof and the main list.

Let me know if you need more.

Nancy C and Beau and Gabe in NH


On 7/22/07 10:58 PM, "PCfarm" wrote:


Ruth wrote:  I will print off Dr. Kellon's How to Trim the
Laminitic Foot,

Where is that file found?

Thanks.
Linda