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Shelley Wurst <collieherd@...>
 

Hi everyone -- I just posted photos of my IR/Foundered Shetland Pony
Butterscotch's feet in a photo file called "Butterscotch". He was
trimmed last night, the photos were taken this afternoon. I'd like
some feedback both on the trim, and also on a question I have about
his general level of discomfort with his feet.

He is trimmed every 2 weeks, and for the past 4 or 5 trims, I've
seen the same pattern: he walks away from the trim sound. In fact,
he feels a little too good and usually runs around a bit in his
small paddock that night. Inevitably, he's sore the next day. He
improves steadily over the course of the next week and half, and
then becomes fairly sore again the couple of days before his next
trim.

I'm also concerned because as time passes, I'm seeing more and more
bruising, both on the sole and on the outside hoof walls (especially
on the rear feet). The bruising on the hoof walls first became
noticable a few months ago. The bruising on the soles just in the
past few trims. I'm under the assumption that this is old bruising
growing out, but how can I know that for sure? Especially on the
rear hoof walls, the bruising (the pink streaks) seem to be growing
down from all the way up where the new hoof is forming.

I've been very reluctant to exercise him at all given that a lot of
time he's still fairly sore. I've not been putting him in boots
because then he acts too frisky and I'm afraid of him doing damage
to himself. I'm expecting bloodwork back (rechecking his IR status)
any day now to make sure we've got the diet where we need to have
it. I'm thinking it might be time to re-xray his feet to see where
we're at (I have his original xrays from August 2006 plus his xrays
from Feb 2007 on the Cushings List photo site, I can post them here
too if anyone needs me to), although my farrier says to wait until 6
months post-founder to re-xray. Incidentally, his rear feet never
were xrayed, the vet did not believe that they were involved in the
founder, although my farrier and I strongly believe he was/is
foundered on all 4.

Ok, sorry to write a book, I'm pretty concerned about what's going
on with his feet and feeling quite out of my depth on this. Thanks
so much for any input.

--Shelley & Butterscotch (and Lacy, too!)
http://www.sportshorses.com/cases/harvestmooncollies.Butterscotch.htm


Mandy Woods
 

Hey Shelley,
Did anyone respond to  you regarding  Butterscotch's bruising?  Asher has 3 white feet and I can see him bruising off and on.  What I've read to help this grow out is to put a bevel on the edge of the walls so there is no ground contact.  I've done this and I've seen improvement.  But I've also watched the outside temperature play a part in  his circulation!   Today its warm and we walked and his rear feet are showing more redness. When he cools down in the shade with his fan his feet return white!  He has never rotated in his rears but he's had laminitis in them.  I can't help but think that the overall Metabolic syndrome plays a huge part in this.  Just remember, when  you trim that what  you see at the bottom is old!  I've seen blood in his white line on occassion verifying laminitis. 
When Butterscotch is off after a trim he could be mobilizing abscesses.  Some horses go three legged lame and some you never know....you'll just find a vent!  Abscesses are good as its the body getting rid of toxins.
I hope this helps you not to worry too much.
Mandy and Asher in VA 
 


Harvest Moon <collieherd@...>
 

>>Did anyone respond to  you regarding  Butterscotch's bruising?
 
 
Thanks, Mandy, no, you're my first response, and I'm very grateful for it!
 
>>What I've read to help this grow out is to put a bevel on the edge of the walls so there is no ground contact.
 
 
I'll mention that to my farrier and see what she says, thanks for the suggestion!
 
>>But I've also watched the outside temperature play a part in  his circulation!   Today its warm and we walked and his rear feet are showing more redness. When he cools down in the shade with his fan his feet return white!
 
 
That's interesting, I'll have to pay attention and see if I see a similar correlation.
 
>>Just remember, when  you trim that what  you see at the bottom is old!  I've seen blood in his white line on occassion verifying laminitis. 
 
 
Thanks for the reminder -- I'm less concerned with the bruising on his sole than I am with the bruising on the hoof walls, especially higher up where I would expect the walls to be clearing (assuming his Insulin is being controlled by diet).
 
>>When Butterscotch is off after a trim he could be mobilizing abscesses.  Some horses go three legged lame and some you never know....you'll just find a vent!
 
 
I've thought of this, but he's never vented an abscess.
 
I'm also wondering if Lyme Disease is playing a role in all this -- still waiting on bloodwork....
 
Thanks again, Mandy, for your thoughts on this!
 
--Shelley & Butterscotch


John Stewart
 

Hi Shelley,

An interesting scenario. Sound after trimming, then sore for a few days, settles down for a few days then sore again a couple of days before the next trim.

Certainly a good collection of photos and radiographs, the evidence being that Butterscotch suffered badly from laminitis last year but the general picture is better except for the fact that he is too often a bit sore.

It looks as though (on the left fore solar view) that the bruising is under the front edge of the pedal bone. Is this the bruising you are talking about?

If you look in the Cushing's site photos section under johnthevet and have a look at "midline cut through the foot" and the next one "close up of tip of pedal bone".
This shows that when the attachment of the front wall to the sole goes - as with Butterscotch, the bone tip will drop below the terminal papillae (the pink circle directly above the bone tip in the examples) and the tip of the bone will press directly onto the sole. If the trim makes him more comfortable by reducing levering forces , and he then runs around, the tip of the bone may well bruise the sole internally, causing the lameness.

The evidence is that the trim that he has been reasonably effective, by the fact that the growth lines have become more even, but perhaps just not enough.

In my opinion, the worse a chronic case of laminitis the more the feet have to be trimmed with a closer to ground parallel pedal bone (solar edge). This will allow loading of a greater area of the posterior part of the foot, and will also spread the weight load more evenly around the bone. If not done this way, the distortion of the coronet and pressure from the extensor process of the pedal bone will slow the growth at the toe in relation to the heel and this will cause further tilting of the bone. With two weekly trims, this should not really be a problem, but with the lameness just before each trim indicates that abnormal forces are still in place.

Your photos show that the top of the hoof is at a different angle to the rest of the foot, so the front of the hoof wall must still be being forced away from the bone. For this reason, I think that the heels have to be taken down more, possibly the bars have to be trimmed a little and the breakover has to be taken back even more. The trim that has been done would work in the vast majority of laminitics but the evidence is that Butterscotch really was bad and needs "the same but more".

His continuing intermittent lameness means that he cannot be exercised and this will remove one of the important means of controlling insulin resistance. Insulin resistance causes weakening of the laminal connection, leaving it less able to cope with any levering forces applied to the hoof (and bone). It may be that this could be helped if pads and boots make him more comfortable and allows him to do some exercise and thus help the insulin resistance. Precarious? Perhaps, but trimming to reduce the mechanical forces, as well as strict diet management should prevent any worsening of the situation.

Good luck

John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shelley Wurst" <collieherd@cox.net>
To: <ECHoof@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:17 PM
Subject: [ECHoof] posted photos


Hi everyone -- I just posted photos of my IR/Foundered Shetland Pony
Butterscotch's feet in a photo file called "Butterscotch". He was
trimmed last night, the photos were taken this afternoon. I'd like
some feedback both on the trim, and also on a question I have about
his general level of discomfort with his feet.

He is trimmed every 2 weeks, and for the past 4 or 5 trims, I've
seen the same pattern: he walks away from the trim sound. In fact,
he feels a little too good and usually runs around a bit in his
small paddock that night. Inevitably, he's sore the next day. He
improves steadily over the course of the next week and half, and
then becomes fairly sore again the couple of days before his next
trim.

I'm also concerned because as time passes, I'm seeing more and more
bruising, both on the sole and on the outside hoof walls (especially
on the rear feet). The bruising on the hoof walls first became
noticable a few months ago. The bruising on the soles just in the
past few trims. I'm under the assumption that this is old bruising
growing out, but how can I know that for sure? Especially on the
rear hoof walls, the bruising (the pink streaks) seem to be growing
down from all the way up where the new hoof is forming.

I've been very reluctant to exercise him at all given that a lot of
time he's still fairly sore. I've not been putting him in boots
because then he acts too frisky and I'm afraid of him doing damage
to himself. I'm expecting bloodwork back (rechecking his IR status)
any day now to make sure we've got the diet where we need to have
it. I'm thinking it might be time to re-xray his feet to see where
we're at (I have his original xrays from August 2006 plus his xrays
from Feb 2007 on the Cushings List photo site, I can post them here
too if anyone needs me to), although my farrier says to wait until 6
months post-founder to re-xray. Incidentally, his rear feet never
were xrayed, the vet did not believe that they were involved in the
founder, although my farrier and I strongly believe he was/is
foundered on all 4.

Ok, sorry to write a book, I'm pretty concerned about what's going
on with his feet and feeling quite out of my depth on this. Thanks
so much for any input.

--Shelley & Butterscotch (and Lacy, too!)
http://www.sportshorses.com/cases/harvestmooncollies.Butterscotch.htm






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Harvest Moon <collieherd@...>
 

Thank you very much for your feedback, John.  May I share your comments with my farrier?  I'm sure she would very much like to hear what you have to say about his trim, and I know it will help her with him.
 
>>His continuing intermittent lameness means that he cannot be exercised and
this will remove one of the important means of controlling insulin
resistance.
 
 
Thank you for addressing this -- it's one of my bigger concerns about the whole situation, as I feel I can't exercise him yet due to his foot situation, yet I know he's badly IR and NEEDS the exercise.  I'm hoping that his recent bloodwork (still waiting on results) will show that we've got the IR under control so I can worry less about the exercise portion right now and concentrate on just letting his feet heel.  If we've not got good control on a the very tight diet he's on, I guess I'll have no choice but to chance exercising him with boots on.
 
Thanks again, very helpful feedback!
 
--Shelley & Butterscotch (and Lacy, too!)