THIN (7MM) SOLES - Considering Vet Recommendation


 

My QH IR/PSSM mare Capri has always had a choppy gait.  She has been barefoot since I got her about 9 years ago.  She has become lame recently- appearing to be in the shoulder but after several myofunctional therapy sessions, my therapist recommended xrays be taken to determine if the problem was originating in the feet.  Her xrays have been uploaded - I think I have doubled up and I can't work out how to delete.  The films don't identify individual feet unfortunately but front and back are obvious.  The measurements indicate a 7 - 8 mm sole depth.

This is my farriers recommendation:

Shoe without toe clips, set shoe slightly back off the toe to reduce breakover. Shoe with no sole
pressure (ie bevel out the inside of the shoe). Using a regular thin synthetic pad on all four feet
will help to protect the thin soles. If the desired improvement isn’t achieved within the first
shoeing cycle then sole pack is another alternative that can be used at the next shoeing.
Aim is to grow some more sole over time and hopefully the pads will only be required for the
next 2-3 shoeing cycles.

I've had my horses barefoot for so long I am totally out of touch with shoeing options and I feel reluctant to go down this path - but I am wondering if it might be worth a go for 6 months or so.  

I would appreciate some qualified advice or recommendations.

Thanking you in anticipation.
--

Sandra Weston

Joined 6/7/2016

Leeton, NSW, Australia

Case Histories:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandra%20and%20Molly

  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandra%20and%20Capri

Molly’s Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4424

Capri's Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4441


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I would suggest:

- Also get navicular views of the front feet
- Forget  shoes and back up the breakover with a bevel. Bevel the whole foot because you have flaring
http://hoofrehab.com/DistalDescent.htm
- Use boots and a compressible pad, or pad and casts if the connections are really poor
- Get diet balanced if it isn't already
--
Dr. K


 

Thank you Dr Kellon.  Navicular views where also taken and showed no problem.  I have been using boots and pads - but only for riding.  Since the onset of the lameness, I have booted fronts with pads for 18 hours per day.  Diet is low sugar/carb and balanced with supplementation as per your teachings.   Alcar (for PSSM), jiagulan (5g/d) and chaste tree berry powder are also included in her daily supplement regime. She is also on daily 4cyte (for joints).  I am confidant I have the diet and supplementation in hand. Her weight is our biggest issue due to lack of the required amount of exercise.  This is very difficult as I work 5 days a week. She currently weighs 508kg and gets up to 8kg of hay/day - on a dry lot.  This is 2% of her ideal weight of 400kg. She is 14hh.

Thank you for the hoof rehab reference.  I will print out for my trimmer.

My vet discussed boots with me and his advice was that boots remove the ability to shorten the breakover - even if hooves are trimmed to do so. 

Dr Kellon - can you comment on that issue? Can boots be cut back?
--

Sandra Weston

Joined 6/7/2016

Leeton, NSW, Australia

Case Histories:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandra%20and%20Molly

  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandra%20and%20Capri

Molly’s Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4424

Capri's Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4441


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Yes!  Hopefully Lavinia will weigh in with some technical pointers but the breakover on boots can be rasped back. They can also be heat fitted so there is no overhang.
--
Dr. K


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Sandra,

If you can set a shoe back to move the breakover back, why not just trim the hoof correctly in the first place so the breakover is in the optimal location?

You can (and should) bevel the treads on boots to set breakover correctly - for every horse that wears them - as no boot has that maximized straight out of the box.. That doesn't change the fact that the hoof itself needs to have the breakover maximized first. Here's another link to Pete's website where he goes into detail on fitting boots and modifying treads:

http://www.hoofrehab.com/GloveMod.html

If you would like mark-ups for the trim, please let me know.

To edit/delete photos in the album, click on the photo you want to work on. When the page opens, click on the blue edit button at the bottom of the page. When the page opens, fill in any info you want to add/change in the boxes then click on the blue Update button. Or, go to the bottom and click the red Delete tab to remove the photo entirely.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


 

Thank you Lavinia - I'd appreciate markups.  I will go and edit as best I can.  The pics were taken on 5 Feb - 5 days after her last trim. 
--

Sandra Weston

Joined 6/7/2016

Leeton, NSW, Australia

Case Histories:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandra%20and%20Molly

  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandra%20and%20Capri

Molly’s Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4424

Capri's Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4441


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Sandra,

Sorry, but I don't seem to be able to find any hoof photos. Are there any current hoof photos or just the latest radiographs?

If no photos, I'll need those:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/Hoof-Related-Photo-Instructions

If you're still having problems editing, please let us know.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Sherlene Turner
 
Edited

 Hi Sandra,
From looking at Capri's photos and x-rays what I see is that the heels have been trimmed out.  A lot of barefoot trimmers take the heels down to the periople thinking that they are ensuring good frog contact, but they are actually increasing pressure on the frog corium, sole corium, collateral cartilages and causing the whole internal foot to move and to be bruised.  The lack of a solid heel buttress allows instability of the back 1/3 of the hoof.  The frog is being displaced from where it should be anchored between the heel bulbs and pulled forward under the foot toward the toe. It is pulled out from between the bulbs, leaving a gap that you can see in Capri's photos. That movement displaces the hind part of the frog that is supposed to lie between the bulbs and prevent contraction of the heels, and strips it out from between the bulbs. The frog corium is pulled under the foot and the heel bulbs are pulled down toward the ground and then under toward the toe. See how Capri's heel bulbs are bulging out of the back of the heel area?  The bulbs should be supported and lifted up off the ground, not forced so low so that they will be crushed when she is forced to walk on them.  The hairline at the heel tells this story very clearly.  Capri is being forced to walk on a bruised corium which hurts of course, and the collateral cartilages are squeezed and the tension on the cartilages can be felt when pressed.  Colateral cartilages should be gristly and moveable to allow P1 to descend between them, but Capri's would probably be hardening/calcifying due to their compression.  The digital cushion should be gristly and shock absorbing, but losing the heel buttress forces the horse's weight to be borne on the digital cushion and sole corium.  The result is that the digital cushion and sole corium are crushed.  The digital cushion thins and is bruised and unable to provide support.  
 
Because the heel buttresses are removed, the sole, which grows down from the sole corium and which attaches to the hoof wall is displaced.  As the support at the heel is removed, the toe shoots forward and the sole must go forward with it.  It grows displaced and the pulling forward is the reason why the sole is thinned.  It is attached to the sole corium and to the laminae in the hoof wall and like a piece of chewing gum, it is stretched as the toe shoots forward.  Bringing the toe alone back won't fix this issue because the toe is shooting forward because there is no heel buttress to support the heel and give stability to the rear of the hoof.  The heel buttresses are needed to support and keep the back 1/3 of the hoof in the right place. There is no bone in the heels and that is why the heel buttresses and the bars are so important as they anchor that area of the hoof and maintain the correct shape and tension on the internal parts of the hoof.  ie the DDFT.  When the sole moves forward because the back of the hoof is destabilised, pressure on the DDFT increases causing tension in it.  The navicular bone lies directly on top of the DDFT and the increased pressure often results in navicular pain and unnatural upward pressure on the rear of P3.  This whole injurious cycle begins with trimming out the heel walls - the heel buttresses - which removes the stability.  Let the heels grow back again, as they were in the photos of Capri's foot from 2017 and the forward sloping angles of the hoof tubules will stand up again, shortening the toe.  Then when the heels grow in again, the sole corium will not be continuously bruised and will grow sole in the right place and you will notice the sole will thicken and your horse will be more comfortable again.  You'll see the frog grow back up between the heel bulbs too.  To see proof that these changes have occurred from trimming out of the heels you can check in Capri's photos.  You can compare the hairline/periople shape in the 2017 photos which shows the hairline as straight and with some heel wall, while the current photos show the typical 'heels trimmed out' curved hairline that at the (missing) heels curve toward the ground.    
 
In my experience horses with a supposedly 'naturally' choppy gait have almost always got sore hooves, (toes or heels) and they take small steps at speed to prevent weighting the sore parts of their hooves.  When the hooves are corrected, the pain disappears and the horse extends their stride as there is no longer any need to shorten the stride.  The change is very noticeable to the rider and much more comfortable for both horse and rider.  Of course other horses might have injuries to the muscles/tendons/ligaments, but I always check the frog, the hairline and the heels to see if there is adequate support for the internal foot first.  No heels always means compromised sole depth.
 
I'm not a vet.  Just sharing my experience as a barefoot trimmer.
 
We sell Eponashoes in our Australian store and use them with our rescue horses and clients' horses that have had the heels trimmed out until the heels can grow back.  Some horse-owners use Eponashoes on their horses all the time, but we only use them therapeutically.  Eponashoes support the frog and do not weight the hoof peripherally.  They can be nailed, glued or cast and glued on to the hoof and there are videos on Youtube that demonstrate how that can be done.  There are other types of shoes and gloves that can be applied during the rehabilitation period that offers the hoof support and sole protection but we have found Eponashoes to be our preference.  We are based in Australia, but if you are in USA, Eponashoes are readily available in your country and are of course manufactured there by designer Monique Craig and her husband John Craig.  
 
I hope this helps and all the best with Capri's recovery.
 
 
Sherlene 
Klemens
 

On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 7:15 AM Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote:
Yes!  Hopefully Lavinia will weigh in with some technical pointers but the breakover on boots can be rasped back. They can also be heat fitted so there is no overhang.
--
Dr. K

 

 


--
Sherlene Klemens
Bundaberg, Qld, Australia
joined 2012


 

OK Lavinia - I'll take hoof photos this weekend and upload and then advise you.  thank you so much.
--

Sandra Weston

Joined 6/7/2016

Leeton, NSW, Australia

Case Histories:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandra%20and%20Molly

  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandra%20and%20Capri

Molly’s Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4424

Capri's Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4441


 

On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 05:40 AM, Sherlene Turner wrote:
Sherlene Klemens - thank you so much for taking the time to explain in such detail your experienced opinion.  I am in Australia - south west NSW.  I have scoot boots and fushion boots and pads for both.  I will print out your message and ask my trimmer is she can follow your recommendations.  I'll also have a look at your website.  THANX A MILLION.

 
--

Sandra Weston

Joined 6/7/2016

Leeton, NSW, Australia

Case Histories:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandra%20and%20Molly

  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandra%20and%20Capri

Molly’s Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4424

Capri's Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4441


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Sandra, if you're going to manage Capri with boots and trim, this is a link to a study by Dr Debra Taylor with trimming advice for the laminitic horse and (more importantly in your case?) how to manage thin soles.  Pete Ramey collaborated with Dr Taylor on this.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0737080613006370

--
Kirsten Rasmussen
Kitimat, BC, Canada


 


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Good info, Kirsten.

Just need to make note that this study was done using laminitic horses who all had some degree of rotation of the coffin bone. While the toe and quarter trimming plus booting protocols are relevant, the heel trimming is not because the trim advice that deals with the back half of the foot is focused on decreasing the palmer angle into the correct range. In Capri's situation, the palmer angle is already too shallow (and heels too low/underrun/flared) so she needs to have it increased to correct her broken back HPAs and get the entire foot re-centered under her bony column.

--
Lavinia

Moderator/ECIR Support


Tracy
 

Hi Sandra -
I am neither a vet nor a farrier...like you I work 5 days a week, my horse is in a dry lot (not enough exercise) etc - similar situation.  We did x-rays of my horses front feet in September and they showed about 6-7mm of sole too.  He has been barefoot for 10 years or more and has most always been a 'bit' tender (I could have told them soles would be thin - I just didn't know HOW thin).  Like you - I used boots last fall for a bit with him to get him more comfortable.
Last fall I also found a new farrier, tightened up diet etc...he was diagnosed PPID - so added Prascend.  Several changes.
I did wind up getting some Hoof Armor to try on Salsa's front feet. 
OMG what a difference!
It so happened the first trim with the new farrier (who trims following Pete Ramey's method) was the second application of Hoof Armor.  A few days later I turned Salsa out (muzzled with the hole blocked) for some exercise.  He walked across the THICK gravel in front of the barn.  For this horse - that was huge progress.
Since then he will sometimes paw in the gravel, walk across it instead of avoiding it - and many times after he's done running, bucking and playing with the donkey he will just go stand in it, hitch a hind leg and take a nap/chill out.  Amazing for this horse - he's NEVER been one to handle gravel well - much less paw at it or go stand in it.  To me this means we are moving Salsa forward toward healthier feet (and overall body) - I'll take it!
I know the new farrier is helping and diet, medicine, no pasture too....but I think the Hoof Armor was the biggie for such a dramatic shift.
It's easy to put on - super thin layer.  Some people put a second later on later a few weeks later - but at this point I've just put one thin layer when he's trimmed on his front feet only.

Tossing that out there as something else you can consider. I found it through this group (just search posts for it). I went to Hoof Armor's website and it lists a vendor in Australia.
Salsa hasn't needed boots for comfort in a few months now.
Good luck to you and Capri!


 

Thanx so much Tracy - I'll research it.  I LOVE this group!! 
--

Sandra Weston

Joined 6/7/2016

Leeton, NSW, Australia

Case Histories:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandra%20and%20Molly

  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandra%20and%20Capri

Molly’s Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4424

Capri's Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4441