Topics

trimming from the top


Betsy
 

I'm not sure if this is an appropriate question to ask here. As I
respect very much the people who share here, I wanted your input on
this style of trimming, trimming from the top. I know that Paige Ross
of ironfreehoof dot com talks about this style of trimming.
Currently, I am struggling with my trimmer taking enough toe off of
Annie. She says from the bottom that she is good and improving but to
me the toes seem too long. I have read on the List how often that as
the foundered foot grows out that the toes often seem to get away
from the original. We are doing so well, that I just wanted some
input from the people I trust most before I suggest it to my trimmer
to watch and see what I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4FhZM13I8s&feature=user

As an update my 19 yr old foundered IR (not tested but responded
totally with The Diet) is not 'off' even on stones or uneven footing
(frozen hoof ruts). She is at a very nice body condition score of a
4.5 to 5. I will get her ACTH tested this spring as she is getting
some of the signs of Cushing's ..losing topline (but could this be
from when she was body sore with the laminitis/founder?) and a pot
belly. Her crest is gone. :-) She trots and runs to herd any horse
she can. She is really getting quite good at it! If she weren't an
Arab I'd be thinking of taking her in the Ranch classes! lol A far
cry from the mare who came to me in July. There are people who don't
believe she ever really foundered when they see her now. lol

I'm looking forward to learning more about the trimming from the top.
I think this is what is missing to take Annie's feet to the next
level of health.

Betsy in Ohio


Ute <ute@...>
 

Sure it is :-) You can only trim as much toe as the hoof tells you to. The sole will indicate how far back you can go. This combined with a good bevel should sufficiently bring the toes back. Just rasping from the top can potentially simply thin the hoofwall, which is not necessarily desirable. Also keep in mind that horses who have had laminitis also tend to grow excessive toe flares, so the feet will look bad until the horse had a chance to grow a new hoof out, no matter how much you try to safely bring the toes back. It just needs time and cannot be done by rasping away too much toe. Do you have pictures to share by any chance? How often is your horse trimmed? Perhaps more frequent trimming would give better results?
 
Personally I also feel that the heels were not sufficiently addressed in the RF hoof of the horse in the video. In foundered horses it is paramount that the heels come down to relieve the coffin bone rotation. That also optically can make the heels look long, but is necessary until the horse has grown a new and improved foot around the coffin bone.
 
Loss of topline could also be from not using herself correctly, IOW running upside down without engaging the abdominals enough or it could potentially be something like selenium deficiency. Selenium is necessary for proper muscle function and I have seen a big WB put on topline when he was supplemented with selenium. Suddenly he filled out more. There's a simple blood test for that. If the horse is low, you can then supplement as needed.
 
 
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe  - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Balance Barefoot Trimmer
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Betsy
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 7:31 AM
Subject: [ECHoof] trimming from the top

I'm not sure if this is an appropriate question to ask here. As I
respect very much the people who share here, I wanted your input on
this style of trimming, trimming from the top. I know that Paige Ross
of ironfreehoof dot com talks about this style of trimming.
Currently, I am struggling with my trimmer taking enough toe off of
Annie. She says from the bottom that she is good and improving but to
me the toes seem too long. I have read on the List how often that as
the foundered foot grows out that the toes often seem to get away
from the original. We are doing so well, that I just wanted some
input from the people I trust most before I suggest it to my trimmer
to watch and see what I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4FhZM13I8s&feature=user

As an update my 19 yr old foundered IR (not tested but responded
totally with The Diet) is not 'off' even on stones or uneven footing
(frozen hoof ruts). She is at a very nice body condition score of a
4.5 to 5. I will get her ACTH tested this spring as she is getting
some of the signs of Cushing's ..losing topline (but could this be
from when she was body sore with the laminitis/founder?) and a pot
belly. Her crest is gone. :-) She trots and runs to herd any horse
she can. She is really getting quite good at it! If she weren't an
Arab I'd be thinking of taking her in the Ranch classes! lol A far
cry from the mare who came to me in July. There are people who don't
believe she ever really foundered when they see her now. lol

I'm looking forward to learning more about the trimming from the top.
I think this is what is missing to take Annie's feet to the next
level of health.

Betsy in Ohio


Pam Beall
 

>That also optically can make the heels look long,
 
 
I bet you meant to say TOES huh, Ute?
 
PAM

 


Ute <ute@...>
 

Yeah,........SIGH.....LOLOLOLOL
 
 
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe  - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Balance Barefoot Trimmer
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Pam Beall
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 9:17 AM
Subject: RE: [ECHoof] trimming from the top

>That also optically can make the heels look long,
 
 
I bet you meant to say TOES huh, Ute?
 
PAM

 


Betsy
 

Thank you, Ute!

I know I'm probably worried more than necessary but you know how it
is with foundered horses! This is my second go at this.

My trimmer comes out every four weeks. And she isn't lame so I guess
I need to take a deep breath and quit over analyizing. :-)

The temps here are at minus 15 windchill so I don't think my camera
will work under those circumstances. I don't think I work very well
under these conditions!

I can post some photos taken shortly after she foundered the second
time and the day I got her. She has nver been totally lame but has
been 'off' only. She is a tough old girl! You can tell by her
attitude when she isn't up to par. She has started back to slow work
(when weather permits). I'll post pics under Annie in the files.

Thank you,
Betsy in Ohio

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, "Ute" <ute@...> wrote:

Sure it is :-) You can only trim as much toe as the hoof tells you
to. The sole will indicate how far back you can go. This combined
with a good bevel should sufficiently bring the toes back. Just
rasping from the top can potentially simply thin the hoofwall, which
is not necessarily desirable. Also keep in mind that horses who have
had laminitis also tend to grow excessive toe flares, so the feet
will look bad until the horse had a chance to grow a new hoof out, no
matter how much you try to safely bring the toes back. It just needs
time and cannot be done by rasping away too much toe. Do you have
pictures to share by any chance? How often is your horse trimmed?
Perhaps more frequent trimming would give better results?

Personally I also feel that the heels were not sufficiently
addressed in the RF hoof of the horse in the video. In foundered
horses it is paramount that the heels come down to relieve the coffin
bone rotation. That also optically can make the heels look long, but
is necessary until the horse has grown a new and improved foot around
the coffin bone.

Loss of topline could also be from not using herself correctly, IOW
running upside down without engaging the abdominals enough or it
could potentially be something like selenium deficiency. Selenium is
necessary for proper muscle function and I have seen a big WB put on
topline when he was supplemented with selenium. Suddenly he filled
out more. There's a simple blood test for that. If the horse is low,
you can then supplement as needed.


BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Balance Barefoot
Trimmer

www.balancedstep.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Betsy
To: ECHoof@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 7:31 AM
Subject: [ECHoof] trimming from the top


I'm not sure if this is an appropriate question to ask here. As I
respect very much the people who share here, I wanted your input
on
this style of trimming, trimming from the top. I know that Paige
Ross
of ironfreehoof dot com talks about this style of trimming.
Currently, I am struggling with my trimmer taking enough toe off
of
Annie. She says from the bottom that she is good and improving
but to
me the toes seem too long. I have read on the List how often that
as
the foundered foot grows out that the toes often seem to get away
from the original. We are doing so well, that I just wanted some
input from the people I trust most before I suggest it to my
trimmer
to watch and see what I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4FhZM13I8s&feature=user

As an update my 19 yr old foundered IR (not tested but responded
totally with The Diet) is not 'off' even on stones or uneven
footing
(frozen hoof ruts). She is at a very nice body condition score of
a
4.5 to 5. I will get her ACTH tested this spring as she is
getting
some of the signs of Cushing's ..losing topline (but could this
be
from when she was body sore with the laminitis/founder?) and a
pot
belly. Her crest is gone. :-) She trots and runs to herd any
horse
she can. She is really getting quite good at it! If she weren't
an
Arab I'd be thinking of taking her in the Ranch classes! lol A
far
cry from the mare who came to me in July. There are people who
don't
believe she ever really foundered when they see her now. lol

I'm looking forward to learning more about the trimming from the
top.
I think this is what is missing to take Annie's feet to the next
level of health.

Betsy in Ohio


Abby Nemec
 

Betsy wrote:

I'm looking forward to learning more about the trimming from the top. I think this is what is missing to take Annie's feet to the next level of health.
The "top down" trim technique itself may or may not be the solution. There are some good things about this specific trim job, but a few things I would do differently.

What "makes" a trim technique is fully dependent on the foot it's used on. A toe may need to be brought back, but if it's not brought back *to the right place for that foot* then it's not right.

Not every toe should be backed up to the white line. Some toes need to be "fit full", or the wall needs to be left intact. A variety of reasons can lead to that choice. Some toes need to be backed up WAY, WAY behind the white line, believe it or not. I frequently take my nippers to a toe and cut it right back behind wall, white line, and well into what looks like sole in order to get the breakover in the right place. The key is that I know when to do that, and when not to.

Some horses need their heels dropped way down, some don't benefit from that at certain times (and some need heels dropped down but wedged back up a little in boots or on shoes to provide comfort during the rehab).

If I were trimming the horse in the video -

1) I would lower the hoof stand or use my knee for trimming the outside of the wall. This guy sure seems like he's got some pain in his shoulders or elbows the way he's arguing about the hoof stand. If he wasn't comfortable on the lower stand or up on my knee, I would trim the outside of his walls "from the bottom". It's certainly possible to bring the horse's foot back underneath him and do the same amount of filing around the foot to get the footprint in the right place.

2) I would definitely take the heels down some more. High heels could easily be the reason he's tight in his shoulders. When she pulls his toe back like that without lowering his heel (he's got great frogs developing, but he looks like a rehab case to me, not a born barefoot horse) she leaves him up on his toes, and that can make him sore.

3) This trimmer needs a lesson in tool care. When rasping, you should only *push* the rasp on the hoof, not push & pull. Drawing the rasp backwards wears out the teeth on the rasp, so that it will become dull much more rapidly. If she gets herself a sharp rasp & then uses the rasp in only one direction, she'll find trimming much quicker & easier (& she'll save money on rasps). She's also not using the whole surface of the rasp. Use the whole length of the rasp on each stroke, and rock the rasp from side to side so that you're using all the teeth. You paid for 'em, you might as well use 'em.

-Abby


--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


Abby Nemec
 

Betsy wrote:

My trimmer comes out every four weeks. And she isn't lame so I guess I need to take a deep breath and quit over analyizing. :-)

Consider this: if the horse is still on a 4-week schedule 8 months after you started, when she's sound and comfortable on all footing ... you may indeed have a situation where the trim is not quite right. If she's that comfortable, the trim should be creating a self-maintaining foot. Trims should really be getting farther apart by now.

-Abby


--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


Ute <ute@...>
 

From what I learned, the growth of the hooves dictates the trim schedule. Hooves tend to grow more when they are laminitic, as they are frantically trying to heal themselves, they also tend to grow more in the summer than the winter. Many horses do not move enough to have more self maintaining hooves and need to be trimmed on a specific schedule that works best for them, according to their hoof growth. 
 
Ute 
 
 
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe  - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Balance Barefoot Trimmer
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [ECHoof] Re: trimming from the top

Betsy wrote:

>
> My trimmer comes out every four weeks. And she isn't lame so I guess
> I need to take a deep breath and quit over analyizing. :-)
>

Consider this: if the horse is still on a 4-week schedule 8 months after
you started, when she's sound and comfortable on all footing ... you may
indeed have a situation where the trim is not quite right. If she's
that comfortable, the trim should be creating a self-maintaining foot.
Trims should really be getting farther apart by now.

-Abby

--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


Abby Nemec
 

Ute wrote:
From what I learned, the growth of the hooves dictates the trim schedule. Hooves tend to grow more when they are laminitic, as they are frantically trying to heal themselves, they also tend to grow more in the summer than the winter. Many horses do not move enough to have more self maintaining hooves and need to be trimmed on a specific schedule that works best for them, according to their hoof growth.
I agree with all of this, absolutely. In Betsy's original post, though, she said that her mare was sound and active, with the laminitis well under control. She was also asking about a trim that she suspected was too long in the toe. In that case, I do suspect (and I used the words "may indeed") that she may be right. It sounds like a more aggressive trim might be safe to do, so that she can stretch out the trim interval a little.

This seems to be a controversial point between me & the barefoot crowd, but I'm of the firm opinion that *healthy, sound horses* who truly need frequent trims (less than every 6 weeks) are not getting an aggressive enough trim. Rehab, health or conformation problems of any kind, and hoof discomfort all warrant shorter intervals.

-Abby

--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


Joe Andrews <horsemumbler@...>
 

This discussion is very instructional for me. I haven't been trimming long enough to feel I can offer any advice, but I would like to ask a couple of questions for my own education.
 
Ute spoke to the trim being dictated by hoof growth and how many horses do not move enough to have self maintaining hooves. Therefore they need to be trimmed on a regular schedule.
 
Abby, after agreeing with Ute, added that healthy, sound horses who truly need frequent trims (less than every six weeks) are not getting an aggressive enough trim.
 
My questions:
 
1. Shouldn't the trim be our way of creating ideal wear so the hoof can adapt to its ideal form? And wouldn't this require a frequent interval as apposed to waiting until something needs attention and fixing it with a trim?
 
2. Wouldn't a too aggressive a trim create the need for more frequent trimming because the hoof sees it as excessive wear and responds with more rapid growth?
 
I really appreciate the experienced people on this list who are willing to share their knowledge to help newcomers to trimming, like me.
 
Joe A.


Ute <ute@...>
 

Horses are side dominant and have postural habits just like humans . This also affects hoof wear and growth, similar to uneven wear on the heels of a person's shoes. Ideally hooves should be minimally trimmed. It is much more effective to address unnatural imbalances that were created by improper shoeing and trimming (underrun or contracted  heels for example) with frequent trimming, similar to what a horse in the wild might experience through everyday wear, rather than having to take off too much at once and yes, if the horse's hoof responds to trimming by just bringing back material that was just removed, the horse should be listened to - apparently the hoof needs the additional material at that time for some reason.
 
 
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe  - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Balance Barefoot Trimmer
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 6:18 AM
Subject: Re: [ECHoof] Re: trimming from the top

This discussion is very instructional for me. I haven't been trimming long enough to feel I can offer any advice, but I would like to ask a couple of questions for my own education.
 
Ute spoke to the trim being dictated by hoof growth and how many horses do not move enough to have self maintaining hooves. Therefore they need to be trimmed on a regular schedule.
 
Abby, after agreeing with Ute, added that healthy, sound horses who truly need frequent trims (less than every six weeks) are not getting an aggressive enough trim.
 
My questions:
 
1. Shouldn't the trim be our way of creating ideal wear so the hoof can adapt to its ideal form? And wouldn't this require a frequent interval as apposed to waiting until something needs attention and fixing it with a trim?
 
2. Wouldn't a too aggressive a trim create the need for more frequent trimming because the hoof sees it as excessive wear and responds with more rapid growth?
 
I really appreciate the experienced people on this list who are willing to share their knowledge to help newcomers to trimming, like me.
 
Joe A.


Kathleen <kamnick@...>
 

One of the trimmers on the Barefoothorsecare@yahoogroups posted this last week. Since it
is on Youtube, I am sure she is ok with sharing it. I enjoyed watching her process. It is good
to see someone actually trimming.

Kathleen

On 2/4/08, Kim Cassidy wrote:
Here I am in all my trimming glory :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4FhZM13I8s


Abby Nemec
 

Kathleen wrote:
One of the trimmers on the Barefoothorsecare@yahoogroups posted this last week. Since it is on Youtube, I am sure she is ok with sharing it. I enjoyed watching her process. It is good to see someone actually trimming.
This is the video that started this thread. You can look back in the thread for our comments on the trim.

-Abby


--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


Kathleen <kamnick@...>
 

Well Oops...I'm sorry, I really thought I was paying attention. Must be getting my groups
mixed up;-(. I do enjoy listening to you gals talk. I have so much respect for women that
trim and shoe. It is one hard job. I have watched and worked with a gal here in California
(Linda Cowles) over the last two years and have just learned so much. My big regret is that
I didn't find her and learn all this when I still had Nasty. I have to think I could have kept
him more comfortable the last years of his life.

Ah well, it is a learning experience.

Thanks to all of you for your time and input

Kathleen


--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, Abby Bloxsom <dearab@...> wrote:

Kathleen wrote:
One of the trimmers on the Barefoothorsecare@yahoogroups posted this last week.
Since it
is on Youtube, I am sure she is ok with sharing it. I enjoyed watching her process. It
is good
to see someone actually trimming.
This is the video that started this thread. You can look back in the
thread for our comments on the trim.

-Abby


--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


Abby Nemec
 

---- Kathleen <kamnick@sonic.net> wrote:
Well Oops...I'm sorry, I really thought I was paying attention. Must be getting my groups
mixed up
No problem! You're forgiven ...

It is one hard job.
You ain't just whistlin' Dixie! When I first started I could only trim one pair of feet per day. It would take me a good hour. One day last week I trimmed 10 horses for 4 different clients, covering well over 200 miles. I was late for dinner, I must admit, but the 200 miles was much harder than the 10 horses.

I have watched and worked with a gal here in California
(Linda Cowles) over the last two years and have just learned so much.
You're lucky to be working with someone like Linda. She's on the Big Cheese list for sure.

My big regret is that
I didn't find her and learn all this when I still had Nasty. I have to think I could have kept
him more comfortable the last years of his life.
But don't you think Nasty would be glad to have brought you to the place where you can continue forward? They have no sense of lost potential as we do. We owe it to the ones we've lost to keep learning, questioning, and sharing what we have experienced.

-Abby


--
---------------------
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


Kathleen <kamnick@...>
 

Oh yes. I do believe that. Horses are so in the moment...don't worry and fret the way we
do. And the knowledge I gained while struggling with his problems has made it possible
for me to help others.

My best friend's arab (Granddar, the one who had Pigeon fever a few months ago) was
diagnosed because I kept nagging her to do the blood work. He was ok, just a little "off"
somehow. And the diet is at the front of my mind all the time. I have helped Linda and
some of her client with that.

And I continue to learn and hopefully to help others. I do think that is what EC continues
to be about.

Thanks Abby for your kind words

Kathleen M


--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, Abby Bloxsom <dearab@...> wrote:

But don't you think Nasty would be glad to have brought you to the place where you can
continue forward? They have no sense of lost potential as we do. We owe it to the ones
we've lost to keep learning, questioning, and sharing what we have experienced.

-Abby


--
---------------------
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com