Topics

Update on GP dressage horse with founder


Abby Nemec
 

Ute wrote:

1) using a shoe actually improves the action of the hoof cast as it provides a smooth surface inside the cast for the hoof to move on,
so that function is maintained
I disagree -
#1 - Do you understand that the shoe is NOT NAILED TO THE FOOT inside the cast??

#2 - Do you understand that I did not say the shoe improves the function of the hoof. I said that the shoe improves the action of the hoof cast. Do you have research or recent experience with hoof casting that would lead you to a different opinion?

#3 - The hoof can flex and expand inside the cast. Since it is not nailed to the shoe, the action of the hoof on the shoe surface is remarkably similar to the action of a bare hoof on a hard, flat surface. The cast provides dynamic support to the hoof capsule and mimics the action of yielding footing on the sole.

#4 - The hoof can only NATURALLY flex and expand if it's healthy and the trim is good. An unhealthy hoof cannot function normally. A poorly trimmed hoof cannot function normally. An unhealthy, poorly trimmed hoof will FUNCTION BETTER if it is trimmed as well as possible *and shod* (even with dreaded nails, actually) than it will if it is left to be unhealthy and poorly trimmed. There may indeed be so much damage in a compromised foot that the trim it needs to put it right will leave it so weak that it benefits from being shod.


Research has shown, that healthy hoof function can only be maintained
and improved if the hoof can naturally flex and expand. Shoes simply
interfere with this mechanism.

"Shoes". All shoes? On every foot? On every horse? With sole support? With hoof casts? Short answer, no. The thing you're really missing about what I'm saying is this:

If a horse has compromised feet (laminitis or just plain damaged feet) our #1 goal here is to get the horse as sound as possible as fast as possible. Somehow you're trying to get me to say that shoes are better than bare feet. They're not, in an ideal world. But we do NOT all live in an ideal world. On this list we work where the rubber meets the road - live feet on real horses, with stressed-out owners and sometimes uncooperative vets and farriers. There are many ways to restore ideal hoof function in rehab, but you need to recognize that what suits your purist sensibilities is not right for all.


Quoting from the Ramey page you gave:

Recent data shows that peripheral loading of the foot reduces hoof
perfusion by almost 50%.... Immediately.

Not quite sure why you're making this argument at this point? I'm not in any way talking about peripheral loading of the foot. Again, quite to the contrary. I'm talking about supporting, developing, and preserving natural concavity by using an appropriate protective device during the period of time that a fragile hoof needs it.

Keep in mind that peripheral loading also occurs when an unshod foot stands on hard ground. As a matter of fact, the pictures in that article show peripheral loading of the forefoot.


Let me tell you a story. An 11-year old boy gets his first horse - an old retired school horse who was "retired" because his farrier had basically demolished his feet, literally an inch too long on shoes 2 sizes too small. All toe, no heel. The horse is worth a million for temperament, but he's a cripple. It's April. Are we going to tell this little boy he can't ride his horse for another YEAR because his feet need to be rehabbed? No. We trim aggressively, put a nice big shoe with the breakover under the tip of P3, fit long & full under the heel, and cast him. Under the cast, his foot fills barely over half the length of his shoe at the heel. Set up this way and cast, the horse is sound enough to do walk and slow trotting for the extent of the season. He blows FOUR (count 'em) abscesses during the summer. By September he even trots a few cross rails. By November we pull the casts/shoes, & he's miserable outside of boots. Next trim, the last of the bad growth in the hindfoot is gone and he's standing on good solid heels. Boots go on the shelf, and the horse is on pasture rest until spring - each trim he gets sounder and sounder. Looks like he may be a proper barefoot horse by the time April rolls around and his little boy is ready to learn to canter.

The family could not afford to pay for daily lessons on a school horse, nor to keep yet another horse at home while the Big Guy grew new feet. So we made do. Are you going to tell me, the horse, the boy, and his mother that this was the wrong thing to do because shoes restrict circulation?

-Abby




--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


valdavoli <STOMPERX@...>
 

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, Abby Bloxsom <dearab@...> wrote:

#1 - Do you understand that the shoe is NOT NAILED TO THE FOOT inside
the cast??

i have been following this hread here and on the cushing list.

how does the equicast differ from the new perfect hoof wear by k.c. la
piere?

val


sorayacharlotte
 

Hello Abby...I have read many of your successes with interest as you
use shoes as well as barefoot and I prefer barefoot. However I am
always open to correction etc, so I read everything to learn as much
as poss.
I was so disapointed to read this response from you...I am not
looking for an argument and neither am I trying to slight your
comments; Are you really saying that the horse who is worth a million
for his temperament who is a cripple because of his previous farrier
cannot be given the summer off work? Are you really saying that the
job of the equicast is to allow a human to work a cripple? To make a
cripple usable until winter arrives?
In your message you say that he blew 4 abscesses in summer and was
miserable without boots. Yet after a winter without boots & casts, he
becomes a good cantidate for bare-foot? That just reads like his
healing was postponed until the little boy no longer wanted to ride
him. Among us humans the ones most likely to dote on a pony who
cannot be ridden are the children. Give a child a pony and say 'he's
yours' and that child will do whatever necessary for their pony as
long as they understand it is in the pony's best interests. I don't
think the boy would have minded.
The reason I posted was because I am always reading /listening to
different points of view; every situation is individual and should be
treated as such. And then the bombshell that actually maybe casts etc
really are just a way to make a horse in pain please its human.
Please don't take this email as agressive: I am very genuine and my
comments come from a desire to understand many different POV.
So did I understand your post correctly?
Soraya
PS my first pony had been severly mistreated
(starving/lice/dermatitis/worms/etc)and needed rehab. I loved her to
bits for almost a year before I sat on her back. I always felt
privilaged to have known her, not short done by because I couldn't
ride for a while.)

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, Abby Bloxsom <dearab@...> wrote>

Let me tell you a story. An 11-year old boy gets his first horse -
an
old retired school horse who was "retired" because his farrier had
basically demolished his feet, literally an inch too long on shoes
2
sizes too small. All toe, no heel. The horse is worth a million
for
temperament, but he's a cripple. It's April. Are we going to tell
this
little boy he can't ride his horse for another YEAR because his
feet
need to be rehabbed? No. We trim aggressively, put a nice big
shoe
with the breakover under the tip of P3, fit long & full under the
heel,
and cast him. Under the cast, his foot fills barely over half the
length of his shoe at the heel. Set up this way and cast, the
horse is
sound enough to do walk and slow trotting for the extent of the
season.
He blows FOUR (count 'em) abscesses during the summer. By
September
he even trots a few cross rails. By November we pull the
casts/shoes, &
he's miserable outside of boots. Next trim, the last of the bad
growth
in the hindfoot is gone and he's standing on good solid heels.
Boots go
on the shelf, and the horse is on pasture rest until spring - each
trim
he gets sounder and sounder. Looks like he may be a proper
barefoot
horse by the time April rolls around and his little boy is ready to
learn to canter.

The family could not afford to pay for daily lessons on a school
horse,
nor to keep yet another horse at home while the Big Guy grew new
feet.
So we made do. Are you going to tell me, the horse, the boy, and
his
mother that this was the wrong thing to do because shoes restrict
circulation?

-Abby




--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


deidregilbertallen <d2allen@...>
 

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, Abby Bloxsom <dearab@...> wrote:

If a horse has compromised feet (laminitis or just plain damaged feet)
our #1 goal here is to get the horse as sound as possible as fast as
possible.

Hi Abby,

I've been following this discussion with interest, and appreciate the
questions as much as the answers. My experience has been like a
pendulum, swinging from a barefoot purist to recognizing the value
of shoes in the case of a seriously deformed hoof capsule. The
casting method you advocate is so new and unusual, it will take a
while to get more people to understand it, so please bear with us!

My question is related to this statement you made:

The cast provides dynamic support to the hoof capsule and mimics the
action of yielding footing on the sole.
How does this occur?

Do you also wrap the casting material under the sole and frog? Do you
place any packing inside the co-lateral grooves? How is the frog
stimulated/supported when a shoe is included in the casting?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.

Deidre


parkell2001 <kingdom@...>
 

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, Abby Bloxsom <dearab@...> wrote:
our #1 goal here is to get the horse as sound as possible as fast
as
possible. Somehow you're trying to get me to say that shoes are
better
than bare feet. They're not, in an ideal world. But we do NOT
all live
in an ideal world. On this list we work where the rubber meets
the road
- live feet on real horses, with stressed-out owners and sometimes
uncooperative vets and farriers. There are many ways to restore
ideal
hoof function in rehab, but you need to recognize that what suits
your
purist sensibilities is not right for all.
Abby,
I agree with what you are saying in that in the real world, all the
above is true. Something that you may no longer be keeping in mind
since you have so much experience casting is that almost no one else
does have that experience. What you are advocating requires some
experience and judgement, on either the part of the owner or the
farrier. I think we both know that for every good conceientous
trimmer or shoer out there, there's 50 who either are careless,
haven't picked up a farrier journal or looked at an online journal
in years, or have no interest or incentive to change anything.
How many people who join the EC list with laminitic IR or Cushings
horses have horses whose feet have been kept in ideal shape, shod or
not, by their farriers? Yet, you appear upset that these same people
aren't running back to their farrier's with a new technique that is
barely known outside of a small section of the country, and feeling
comfortable that their farrier will, 1. apply the technique, 2.
apply it correctly and well.

At least there are now quite a few barefoot trimmers who have some
kind of certification and referrals that these people can go to for
trimming and booting to make their horses comfortable, get some
movement, and start healing that is relatively simple. Prepping a
foot correctly for shoeing, etc. is NOT simple, and out of the realm
of the average horse owner, who has no choice but to rely on their
farrier.

The GP horse that was the basis for this discussion has been reset
in four point balance shoes and pads at 5-6 weeks for years by a
full time professional farrier. Owner would only take off hind shoes
in the winter, and of course, the hind feet would chunk out and
break up badly. Owner says horse has been flat footed for years
also, and could not go without front shoes or he would be lame.

When the horse became obviously painful, owner had been suspicious
that horse was becoming laminitic and asked farrier at reset if
there were signs of founder. Farrier said no. Horse became severely
painful four days after reset.
Owner's regular vet was called out, who took xrays of front(none on
hind), dispensed bute, recommended stall rest and said nothing(I was
there and witnessed this)about diet, fact that horse was obese with
fat pads, etc. Owner went to vet's office in the afternoon, told
horse had rotated five degrees, need to get heels down, stall rest,
try Equioxx for pain. Told owner he had recently sent client with
foundered horse to Ric Redden and "that didn't work out".

Farrier came out that afternoon , pulled shoes, cut down heels, said
he couldn't trim heels any further due to pull on DDFT, and left. I
looked at horse the next day and was not only floored at how flat
feet are, but bar, heel triangle sole is paper thin. All heel area
sole can be depressed with gentle pressure from thumb.
Owner next consulted with "expert" lameness veterinarian she has
used for horse's past suspensory injury halfway across state. She
makes 240 mile round trip to office and is sold a pair of Ric
Redden's rocker boots, a Ric Redden lameness book with instructions
on how to apply boots, told to use boots until horse is comfortable,
then find one of two farrier's in the entire state of Michigan that
have trained under Redden to put on Redden's designed shoes. Horse
is to be stalled for possibly six months, and by the way, here is
some Carafate to deal with ulcers.

Put yourself in the owner's place.(By the way, this person is not
just a backyard owner, or even an amateur with money to buy a GP
dressage horse. She is a Pony Club A grad and examiner, a USDF L
judge, and USDF assistant instructor who owns her own training and
boarding facility. She has always been diligent and up to date on
caring for her horses, and had only dealt with one prior founder on
a client's mare who developed a severe uterine infection after
foaling. If you recall, the GP horse was on high fat and oil for
shivers, originally recommended by Beth Valentine,DVM).

I think it would be more beneficial to everyone for more information
on casting to be available, so that people could choose to use it
with some confidence. It's hard to get people to experiment with
stuff if they have other established options available, such as
trimming and booting.(We have several certified trimmers in our
area, and many of us have successfully rehabbed our own horses. If I
had the option of using you to treat my horses and you could
demonstrate why shoeing them with the goal of achieving an ideal
foot and eventual barefoot, I would certainly consider it, as most
reasonable people would. But I didn't, and my friend's GP horse
doesn't have that option either.


Quoting from the Ramey page you gave:

Recent data shows that peripheral loading of the foot reduces
hoof
> perfusion by almost 50%.... Immediately.


Not quite sure why you're making this argument at this point? I'm
not
in any way talking about peripheral loading of the foot. Again,
quite
to the contrary. I'm talking about supporting, developing, and
preserving natural concavity by using an appropriate protective
device
during the period of time that a fragile hoof needs it.

Keep in mind that peripheral loading also occurs when an unshod
foot
stands on hard ground. As a matter of fact, the pictures in that
article show peripheral loading of the forefoot.

Which is why the Epic boots with pad inserts were developed, so that
heel and sole could share in the load and the horse would not just
be standing on its walls.
I could see where shoeing and casting the foot with some kind of
domed support in the sole would be beneficial. Again, Abby, this is
where the average horse owner would need someone with your
experience and expertise to apply the pads, shoes, and casts and
unless you can clone yourself many times over, many people on the EC
list are going to have to look to other options if they want to
improve their horses feet.
Dawn


Ute <ute@...>
 

A horse that is suffering form repeated abscesses is also usually affected by a weakened hoof structure due to a diet high in NSCs.
 
 
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe  - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 7:05 AM
Subject: [ECHoof] Re: Update on GP dressage horse with founder

Hello Abby...I have read many of your successes with interest as you
use shoes as well as barefoot and I prefer barefoot. However I am
always open to correction etc, so I read everything to learn as much
as poss.
I was so disapointed to read this response from you...I am not
looking for an argument and neither am I trying to slight your
comments; Are you really saying that the horse who is worth a million
for his temperament who is a cripple because of his previous farrier
cannot be given the summer off work? Are you really saying that the
job of the equicast is to allow a human to work a cripple? To make a
cripple usable until winter arrives?
In your message you say that he blew 4 abscesses in summer and was
miserable without boots. Yet after a winter without boots & casts, he
becomes a good cantidate for bare-foot? That just reads like his
healing was postponed until the little boy no longer wanted to ride
him. Among us humans the ones most likely to dote on a pony who
cannot be ridden are the children. Give a child a pony and say 'he's
yours' and that child will do whatever necessary for their pony as
long as they understand it is in the pony's best interests. I don't
think the boy would have minded.
The reason I posted was because I am always reading /listening to
different points of view; every situation is individual and should be
treated as such. And then the bombshell that actually maybe casts etc
really are just a way to make a horse in pain please its human.
Please don't take this email as agressive: I am very genuine and my
comments come from a desire to understand many different POV.
So did I understand your post correctly?
Soraya
PS my first pony had been severly mistreated
(starving/lice/dermatitis/worms/etc)and needed rehab. I loved her to
bits for almost a year before I sat on her back. I always felt
privilaged to have known her, not short done by because I couldn't
ride for a while.)

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, Abby Bloxsom wrote>
>
> Let me tell you a story. An 11-year old boy gets his first horse -
an
> old retired school horse who was "retired" because his farrier had
> basically demolished his feet, literally an inch too long on shoes
2
> sizes too small. All toe, no heel. The horse is worth a million
for
> temperament, but he's a cripple. It's April. Are we going to tell
this
> little boy he can't ride his horse for another YEAR because his
feet
> need to be rehabbed? No. We trim aggressively, put a nice big
shoe
> with the breakover under the tip of P3, fit long & full under the
heel,
> and cast him. Under the cast, his foot fills barely over half the
> length of his shoe at the heel. Set up this way and cast, the
horse is
> sound enough to do walk and slow trotting for the extent of the
season.
> He blows FOUR (count 'em) abscesses during the summer. By
September
> he even trots a few cross rails. By November we pull the
casts/shoes, &
> he's miserable outside of boots. Next trim, the last of the bad
growth
> in the hindfoot is gone and he's standing on good solid heels.
Boots go
> on the shelf, and the horse is on pasture rest until spring - each
trim
> he gets sounder and sounder. Looks like he may be a proper
barefoot
> horse by the time April rolls around and his little boy is ready to
> learn to canter.
>
> The family could not afford to pay for daily lessons on a school
horse,
> nor to keep yet another horse at home while the Big Guy grew new
feet.
> So we made do. Are you going to tell me, the horse, the boy, and
his
> mother that this was the wrong thing to do because shoes restrict
> circulation?
>
> -Abby
>
>
>
>
> --
> **************************
> Abby Bloxsom
> www.advantedgeconsulting.com
>


Ute <ute@...>
 

I very much agree with Dawn, especially on this point:
 
"At least there are now quite a few barefoot trimmers who have some
kind of certification and referrals that these people can go to for
trimming and booting to make their horses comfortable, get some
movement, and start healing that is relatively simple. Prepping a
foot correctly for shoeing, etc. is NOT simple, and out of the realm
of the average horse owner, who has no choice but to rely on their
farrier."
 
Over and over again I and others have found, that when people start to apply shoe "gadgets" to hooves without addressing the real underlying cause(s), the hooves will break down further until it is allowed to heal barefoot. It certainly sounds like this GP horse went down this path. Shoeing band-aid after band-aid was applied and the root cause ignored, heck even missed when the horse foundered. And the fact that this seems to again support peripheral hoofwall loading which research has shown is detrimental to overall hoof health. If we continue to spread myths like this, we do horses harm.
 
I can see the Equicast perhaps being a solution for a hoof with severe hoofwall trauma, but not for laminitis and founder cases. Those hooves will most effectively heal bare, with correct trimming, diet and exercise. As with many things, keeping it simple is usually the best approach.
 
We need to listen more to the horses - they will tell you what works and does not. And always challenge accepted wisdoms, because they may be outdated or simply wrong!
 
Ute

 
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe  - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 7:21 AM
Subject: [ECHoof] Re: Update on GP dressage horse with founder

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, Abby Bloxsom wrote:
>
our #1 goal here is to get the horse as sound as possible as fast
as
> possible. Somehow you're trying to get me to say that shoes are
better
> than bare feet. They're not, in an ideal world. But we do NOT
all live
> in an ideal world. On this list we work where the rubber meets
the road
> - live feet on real horses, with stressed-out owners and sometimes
> uncooperative vets and farriers. There are many ways to restore
ideal
> hoof function in rehab, but you need to recognize that what suits
your
> purist sensibilities is not right for all.

Abby,
I agree with what you are saying in that in the real world, all the
above is true. Something that you may no longer be keeping in mind
since you have so much experience casting is that almost no one else
does have that experience. What you are advocating requires some
experience and judgement, on either the part of the owner or the
farrier. I think we both know that for every good conceientous
trimmer or shoer out there, there's 50 who either are careless,
haven't picked up a farrier journal or looked at an online journal
in years, or have no interest or incentive to change anything.
How many people who join the EC list with laminitic IR or Cushings
horses have horses whose feet have been kept in ideal shape, shod or
not, by their farriers? Yet, you appear upset that these same people
aren't running back to their farrier's with a new technique that is
barely known outside of a small section of the country, and feeling
comfortable that their farrier will, 1. apply the technique, 2.
apply it correctly and well.

At least there are now quite a few barefoot trimmers who have some
kind of certification and referrals that these people can go to for
trimming and booting to make their horses comfortable, get some
movement, and start healing that is relatively simple. Prepping a
foot correctly for shoeing, etc. is NOT simple, and out of the realm
of the average horse owner, who has no choice but to rely on their
farrier.

The GP horse that was the basis for this discussion has been reset
in four point balance shoes and pads at 5-6 weeks for years by a
full time professional farrier. Owner would only take off hind shoes
in the winter, and of course, the hind feet would chunk out and
break up badly. Owner says horse has been flat footed for years
also, and could not go without front shoes or he would be lame.

When the horse became obviously painful, owner had been suspicious
that horse was becoming laminitic and asked farrier at reset if
there were signs of founder. Farrier said no. Horse became severely
painful four days after reset.
Owner's regular vet was called out, who took xrays of front(none on
hind), dispensed bute, recommended stall rest and said nothing(I was
there and witnessed this)about diet, fact that horse was obese with
fat pads, etc. Owner went to vet's office in the afternoon, told
horse had rotated five degrees, need to get heels down, stall rest,
try Equioxx for pain. Told owner he had recently sent client with
foundered horse to Ric Redden and "that didn't work out".

Farrier came out that afternoon , pulled shoes, cut down heels, said
he couldn't trim heels any further due to pull on DDFT, and left. I
looked at horse the next day and was not only floored at how flat
feet are, but bar, heel triangle sole is paper thin. All heel area
sole can be depressed with gentle pressure from thumb.
Owner next consulted with "expert" lameness veterinarian she has
used for horse's past suspensory injury halfway across state. She
makes 240 mile round trip to office and is sold a pair of Ric
Redden's rocker boots, a Ric Redden lameness book with instructions
on how to apply boots, told to use boots until horse is comfortable,
then find one of two farrier's in the entire state of Michigan that
have trained under Redden to put on Redden's designed shoes. Horse
is to be stalled for possibly six months, and by the way, here is
some Carafate to deal with ulcers.

Put yourself in the owner's place.(By the way, this person is not
just a backyard owner, or even an amateur with money to buy a GP
dressage horse. She is a Pony Club A grad and examiner, a USDF L
judge, and USDF assistant instructor who owns her own training and
boarding facility. She has always been diligent and up to date on
caring for her horses, and had only dealt with one prior founder on
a client's mare who developed a severe uterine infection after
foaling. If you recall, the GP horse was on high fat and oil for
shivers, originally recommended by Beth Valentine,DVM).

I think it would be more beneficial to everyone for more information
on casting to be available, so that people could choose to use it
with some confidence. It's hard to get people to experiment with
stuff if they have other established options available, such as
trimming and booting.(We have several certified trimmers in our
area, and many of us have successfully rehabbed our own horses. If I
had the option of using you to treat my horses and you could
demonstrate why shoeing them with the goal of achieving an ideal
foot and eventual barefoot, I would certainly consider it, as most
reasonable people would. But I didn't, and my friend's GP horse
doesn't have that option either.

> Quoting from the Ramey page you gave:
>
> > Recent data shows that peripheral loading of the foot reduces
hoof
> > perfusion by almost 50%.... Immediately.
>
>
> Not quite sure why you're making this argument at this point? I'm
not
> in any way talking about peripheral loading of the foot. Again,
quite
> to the contrary. I'm talking about supporting, developing, and
> preserving natural concavity by using an appropriate protective
device
> during the period of time that a fragile hoof needs it.
>
> Keep in mind that peripheral loading also occurs when an unshod
foot
> stands on hard ground. As a matter of fact, the pictures in that
> article show peripheral loading of the forefoot.


Which is why the Epic boots with pad inserts were developed, so that
heel and sole could share in the load and the horse would not just
be standing on its walls.
I could see where shoeing and casting the foot with some kind of
domed support in the sole would be beneficial. Again, Abby, this is
where the average horse owner would need someone with your
experience and expertise to apply the pads, shoes, and casts and
unless you can clone yourself many times over, many people on the EC
list are going to have to look to other options if they want to
improve their horses feet.
Dawn


5 Pine Ranch
 

Ute and Dawn, your posts on this subject are starting to read like a **gang up** because they aren't fitting YOUR ideals on hoof rehab.  Please do consider this when responding.  The comments regarding the little boys horse are in particular disturbing Dawn and I personally disliked the tone of your post.  I completely agree with Abby that "real world" demands are often at opposite ends of "the ideal way to rehab" particularly when it comes to horses.  Did you ever consider that this family could have just as easily dumped Abby for a farrier that would have slapped a set of shoes on the horse and said horse could have trotted around lame and in pain? 
 
The rest of us non-hoof gurus are interested in reading the pros and cons of hoof care and equicasts but I tend to "lose information" when it is presented in accusatory tones.  Hopefully this discussion can continue productively and without the perfect world ideals but with some acceptance, even skepticism, that new products can be tried.  Casts are not cement boots....they are a tool that one can choose to use OR NOT. 
 
Amberlee
www.fivepineranch.com
Please Visit Our Site!
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Ute
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: [ECHoof] Re: Update on GP dressage horse with founder

I very much agree with Dawn, especially on this point:
 
"At least there are now quite a few barefoot trimmers who have some
kind of certification and referrals that these people can go to for
trimming and booting to make their horses comfortable, get some
movement, and start healing that is relatively simple. Prepping a
foot correctly for shoeing, etc. is NOT simple, and out of the realm
of the average horse owner, who has no choice but to rely on their
farrier."
 
Over and over again I and others have found, that when people start to apply shoe "gadgets" to hooves without addressing the real underlying cause(s), the hooves will break down further until it is allowed to heal barefoot. It certainly sounds like this GP horse went down this path. Shoeing band-aid after band-aid was applied and the root cause ignored, heck even missed when the horse foundered. And the fact that this seems to again support peripheral hoofwall loading which research has shown is detrimental to overall hoof health. If we continue to spread myths like this, we do horses harm.
 
I can see the Equicast perhaps being a solution for a hoof with severe hoofwall trauma, but not for laminitis and founder cases. Those hooves will most effectively heal bare, with correct trimming, diet and exercise. As with many things, keeping it simple is usually the best approach.
 
We need to listen more to the horses - they will tell you what works and does not. And always challenge accepted wisdoms, because they may be outdated or simply wrong!
 
Ute

 
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe  - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 7:21 AM
Subject: [ECHoof] Re: Update on GP dressage horse with founder

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, Abby Bloxsom wrote:
>
our #1 goal here is to get the horse as sound as possible as fast
as
> possible. Somehow you're trying to get me to say that shoes are
better
> than bare feet. They're not, in an ideal world. But we do NOT
all live
> in an ideal world. On this list we work where the rubber meets
the road
> - live feet on real horses, with stressed-out owners and sometimes
> uncooperative vets and farriers. There are many ways to restore
ideal
> hoof function in rehab, but you need to recognize that what suits
your
> purist sensibilities is not right for all.

Abby,
I agree with what you are saying in that in the real world, all the
above is true. Something that you may no longer be keeping in mind
since you have so much experience casting is that almost no one else
does have that experience. What you are advocating requires some
experience and judgement, on either the part of the owner or the
farrier. I think we both know that for every good conceientous
trimmer or shoer out there, there's 50 who either are careless,
haven't picked up a farrier journal or looked at an online journal
in years, or have no interest or incentive to change anything.
How many people who join the EC list with laminitic IR or Cushings
horses have horses whose feet have been kept in ideal shape, shod or
not, by their farriers? Yet, you appear upset that these same people
aren't running back to their farrier's with a new technique that is
barely known outside of a small section of the country, and feeling
comfortable that their farrier will, 1. apply the technique, 2.
apply it correctly and well.

At least there are now quite a few barefoot trimmers who have some
kind of certification and referrals that these people can go to for
trimming and booting to make their horses comfortable, get some
movement, and start healing that is relatively simple. Prepping a
foot correctly for shoeing, etc. is NOT simple, and out of the realm
of the average horse owner, who has no choice but to rely on their
farrier.

The GP horse that was the basis for this discussion has been reset
in four point balance shoes and pads at 5-6 weeks for years by a
full time professional farrier. Owner would only take off hind shoes
in the winter, and of course, the hind feet would chunk out and
break up badly. Owner says horse has been flat footed for years
also, and could not go without front shoes or he would be lame.

When the horse became obviously painful, owner had been suspicious
that horse was becoming laminitic and asked farrier at reset if
there were signs of founder. Farrier said no. Horse became severely
painful four days after reset.
Owner's regular vet was called out, who took xrays of front(none on
hind), dispensed bute, recommended stall rest and said nothing(I was
there and witnessed this)about diet, fact that horse was obese with
fat pads, etc. Owner went to vet's office in the afternoon, told
horse had rotated five degrees, need to get heels down, stall rest,
try Equioxx for pain. Told owner he had recently sent client with
foundered horse to Ric Redden and "that didn't work out".

Farrier came out that afternoon , pulled shoes, cut down heels, said
he couldn't trim heels any further due to pull on DDFT, and left. I
looked at horse the next day and was not only floored at how flat
feet are, but bar, heel triangle sole is paper thin. All heel area
sole can be depressed with gentle pressure from thumb.
Owner next consulted with "expert" lameness veterinarian she has
used for horse's past suspensory injury halfway across state. She
makes 240 mile round trip to office and is sold a pair of Ric
Redden's rocker boots, a Ric Redden lameness book with instructions
on how to apply boots, told to use boots until horse is comfortable,
then find one of two farrier's in the entire state of Michigan that
have trained under Redden to put on Redden's designed shoes. Horse
is to be stalled for possibly six months, and by the way, here is
some Carafate to deal with ulcers.

Put yourself in the owner's place.(By the way, this person is not
just a backyard owner, or even an amateur with money to buy a GP
dressage horse. She is a Pony Club A grad and examiner, a USDF L
judge, and USDF assistant instructor who owns her own training and
boarding facility. She has always been diligent and up to date on
caring for her horses, and had only dealt with one prior founder on
a client's mare who developed a severe uterine infection after
foaling. If you recall, the GP horse was on high fat and oil for
shivers, originally recommended by Beth Valentine,DVM).

I think it would be more beneficial to everyone for more information
on casting to be available, so that people could choose to use it
with some confidence. It's hard to get people to experiment with
stuff if they have other established options available, such as
trimming and booting.(We have several certified trimmers in our
area, and many of us have successfully rehabbed our own horses. If I
had the option of using you to treat my horses and you could
demonstrate why shoeing them with the goal of achieving an ideal
foot and eventual barefoot, I would certainly consider it, as most
reasonable people would. But I didn't, and my friend's GP horse
doesn't have that option either.

> Quoting from the Ramey page you gave:
>
> > Recent data shows that peripheral loading of the foot reduces
hoof
> > perfusion by almost 50%.... Immediately.
>
>
> Not quite sure why you're making this argument at this point? I'm
not
> in any way talking about peripheral loading of the foot. Again,
quite
> to the contrary. I'm talking about supporting, developing, and
> preserving natural concavity by using an appropriate protective
device
> during the period of time that a fragile hoof needs it.
>
> Keep in mind that peripheral loading also occurs when an unshod
foot
> stands on hard ground. As a matter of fact, the pictures in that
> article show peripheral loading of the forefoot.


Which is why the Epic boots with pad inserts were developed, so that
heel and sole could share in the load and the horse would not just
be standing on its walls.
I could see where shoeing and casting the foot with some kind of
domed support in the sole would be beneficial. Again, Abby, this is
where the average horse owner would need someone with your
experience and expertise to apply the pads, shoes, and casts and
unless you can clone yourself many times over, many people on the EC
list are going to have to look to other options if they want to
improve their horses feet.
Dawn


Ute <ute@...>
 

Gang ups are usually associated with being rude and disrespectful to the other person, including name calling . I do not see any of this happening here. Rather we simply disagree with the approach  as presented, as it continues to perpetuate some hoof management solutions that we have found to be detrimental to hoof health in the long run!  
 
Ute 
 
 
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe  - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: [ECHoof] Re: Update on GP dressage horse with founder

Ute and Dawn, your posts on this subject are starting to read like a **gang up** because they aren't fitting YOUR ideals on hoof rehab.  Please do consider this when responding.  The comments regarding the little boys horse are in particular disturbing Dawn and I personally disliked the tone of your post.  I completely agree with Abby that "real world" demands are often at opposite ends of "the ideal way to rehab" particularly when it comes to horses.  Did you ever consider that this family could have just as easily dumped Abby for a farrier that would have slapped a set of shoes on the horse and said horse could have trotted around lame and in pain? 
 
The rest of us non-hoof gurus are interested in reading the pros and cons of hoof care and equicasts but I tend to "lose information" when it is presented in accusatory tones.  Hopefully this discussion can continue productively and without the perfect world ideals but with some acceptance, even skepticism, that new products can be tried.  Casts are not cement boots....they are a tool that one can choose to use OR NOT. 
 
Amberlee
www.fivepineranch.com
Please Visit Our Site!
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Ute
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: [ECHoof] Re: Update on GP dressage horse with founder

I very much agree with Dawn, especially on this point:
 
"At least there are now quite a few barefoot trimmers who have some
kind of certification and referrals that these people can go to for
trimming and booting to make their horses comfortable, get some
movement, and start healing that is relatively simple. Prepping a
foot correctly for shoeing, etc. is NOT simple, and out of the realm
of the average horse owner, who has no choice but to rely on their
farrier."
 
Over and over again I and others have found, that when people start to apply shoe "gadgets" to hooves without addressing the real underlying cause(s), the hooves will break down further until it is allowed to heal barefoot. It certainly sounds like this GP horse went down this path. Shoeing band-aid after band-aid was applied and the root cause ignored, heck even missed when the horse foundered. And the fact that this seems to again support peripheral hoofwall loading which research has shown is detrimental to overall hoof health. If we continue to spread myths like this, we do horses harm.
 
I can see the Equicast perhaps being a solution for a hoof with severe hoofwall trauma, but not for laminitis and founder cases. Those hooves will most effectively heal bare, with correct trimming, diet and exercise. As with many things, keeping it simple is usually the best approach.
 
We need to listen more to the horses - they will tell you what works and does not. And always challenge accepted wisdoms, because they may be outdated or simply wrong!
 
Ute

 
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe  - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 7:21 AM
Subject: [ECHoof] Re: Update on GP dressage horse with founder

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, Abby Bloxsom wrote:
>
our #1 goal here is to get the horse as sound as possible as fast
as
> possible. Somehow you're trying to get me to say that shoes are
better
> than bare feet. They're not, in an ideal world. But we do NOT
all live
> in an ideal world. On this list we work where the rubber meets
the road
> - live feet on real horses, with stressed-out owners and sometimes
> uncooperative vets and farriers. There are many ways to restore
ideal
> hoof function in rehab, but you need to recognize that what suits
your
> purist sensibilities is not right for all.

Abby,
I agree with what you are saying in that in the real world, all the
above is true. Something that you may no longer be keeping in mind
since you have so much experience casting is that almost no one else
does have that experience. What you are advocating requires some
experience and judgement, on either the part of the owner or the
farrier. I think we both know that for every good conceientous
trimmer or shoer out there, there's 50 who either are careless,
haven't picked up a farrier journal or looked at an online journal
in years, or have no interest or incentive to change anything.
How many people who join the EC list with laminitic IR or Cushings
horses have horses whose feet have been kept in ideal shape, shod or
not, by their farriers? Yet, you appear upset that these same people
aren't running back to their farrier's with a new technique that is
barely known outside of a small section of the country, and feeling
comfortable that their farrier will, 1. apply the technique, 2.
apply it correctly and well.

At least there are now quite a few barefoot trimmers who have some
kind of certification and referrals that these people can go to for
trimming and booting to make their horses comfortable, get some
movement, and start healing that is relatively simple. Prepping a
foot correctly for shoeing, etc. is NOT simple, and out of the realm
of the average horse owner, who has no choice but to rely on their
farrier.

The GP horse that was the basis for this discussion has been reset
in four point balance shoes and pads at 5-6 weeks for years by a
full time professional farrier. Owner would only take off hind shoes
in the winter, and of course, the hind feet would chunk out and
break up badly. Owner says horse has been flat footed for years
also, and could not go without front shoes or he would be lame.

When the horse became obviously painful, owner had been suspicious
that horse was becoming laminitic and asked farrier at reset if
there were signs of founder. Farrier said no. Horse became severely
painful four days after reset.
Owner's regular vet was called out, who took xrays of front(none on
hind), dispensed bute, recommended stall rest and said nothing(I was
there and witnessed this)about diet, fact that horse was obese with
fat pads, etc. Owner went to vet's office in the afternoon, told
horse had rotated five degrees, need to get heels down, stall rest,
try Equioxx for pain. Told owner he had recently sent client with
foundered horse to Ric Redden and "that didn't work out".

Farrier came out that afternoon , pulled shoes, cut down heels, said
he couldn't trim heels any further due to pull on DDFT, and left. I
looked at horse the next day and was not only floored at how flat
feet are, but bar, heel triangle sole is paper thin. All heel area
sole can be depressed with gentle pressure from thumb.
Owner next consulted with "expert" lameness veterinarian she has
used for horse's past suspensory injury halfway across state. She
makes 240 mile round trip to office and is sold a pair of Ric
Redden's rocker boots, a Ric Redden lameness book with instructions
on how to apply boots, told to use boots until horse is comfortable,
then find one of two farrier's in the entire state of Michigan that
have trained under Redden to put on Redden's designed shoes. Horse
is to be stalled for possibly six months, and by the way, here is
some Carafate to deal with ulcers.

Put yourself in the owner's place.(By the way, this person is not
just a backyard owner, or even an amateur with money to buy a GP
dressage horse. She is a Pony Club A grad and examiner, a USDF L
judge, and USDF assistant instructor who owns her own training and
boarding facility. She has always been diligent and up to date on
caring for her horses, and had only dealt with one prior founder on
a client's mare who developed a severe uterine infection after
foaling. If you recall, the GP horse was on high fat and oil for
shivers, originally recommended by Beth Valentine,DVM).

I think it would be more beneficial to everyone for more information
on casting to be available, so that people could choose to use it
with some confidence. It's hard to get people to experiment with
stuff if they have other established options available, such as
trimming and booting.(We have several certified trimmers in our
area, and many of us have successfully rehabbed our own horses. If I
had the option of using you to treat my horses and you could
demonstrate why shoeing them with the goal of achieving an ideal
foot and eventual barefoot, I would certainly consider it, as most
reasonable people would. But I didn't, and my friend's GP horse
doesn't have that option either.

> Quoting from the Ramey page you gave:
>
> > Recent data shows that peripheral loading of the foot reduces
hoof
> > perfusion by almost 50%.... Immediately.
>
>
> Not quite sure why you're making this argument at this point? I'm
not
> in any way talking about peripheral loading of the foot. Again,
quite
> to the contrary. I'm talking about supporting, developing, and
> preserving natural concavity by using an appropriate protective
device
> during the period of time that a fragile hoof needs it.
>
> Keep in mind that peripheral loading also occurs when an unshod
foot
> stands on hard ground. As a matter of fact, the pictures in that
> article show peripheral loading of the forefoot.


Which is why the Epic boots with pad inserts were developed, so that
heel and sole could share in the load and the horse would not just
be standing on its walls.
I could see where shoeing and casting the foot with some kind of
domed support in the sole would be beneficial. Again, Abby, this is
where the average horse owner would need someone with your
experience and expertise to apply the pads, shoes, and casts and
unless you can clone yourself many times over, many people on the EC
list are going to have to look to other options if they want to
improve their horses feet.
Dawn


Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

I couldn't find any details on the material, etc. but from photos and
description I'd say the idea is exactly the same and the major
difference appears to be PRICE!!!!

Eleanor

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, "valdavoli" <STOMPERX@...> wrote:

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, Abby Bloxsom <dearab@> wrote:

#1 - Do you understand that the shoe is NOT NAILED TO THE FOOT
inside
the cast??

i have been following this hread here and on the cushing list.

how does the equicast differ from the new perfect hoof wear by k.c.
la
piere?

val


aptly_asked <aptly_asked@...>
 

Ute,

One of the moderators of this group stated that they didn't like your tone or Dawn's.  It's not a matter of what works or what doesn't.  It's not a matter of fact.  It's how it's being delivered.  Please change it.  That's all.

Paul Davis
"Aptly Asked"
Moderator





Ute wrote:

Gang ups are usually associated with being rude and disrespectful to the other person, including name calling . I do not see any of this happening here. Rather we simply disagree with the approach  as presented, as it continues to perpetuate some hoof management solutions that we have found to be detrimental to hoof health in the long run!  
 
Ute 
 
 
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe  - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: [ECHoof] Re: Update on GP dressage horse with founder

Ute and Dawn, your posts on this subject are starting to read like a **gang up** because they aren't fitting YOUR ideals on hoof rehab.  Please do consider this when responding.  The comments regarding the little boys horse are in particular disturbing Dawn and I personally disliked the tone of your post.  I completely agree with Abby that "real world" demands are often at opposite ends of "the ideal way to rehab" particularly when it comes to horses.  Did you ever consider that this family could have just as easily dumped Abby for a farrier that would have slapped a set of shoes on the horse and said horse could have trotted around lame and in pain? 
 
The rest of us non-hoof gurus are interested in reading the pros and cons of hoof care and equicasts but I tend to "lose information" when it is presented in accusatory tones.  Hopefully this discussion can continue productively and without the perfect world ideals but with some acceptance, even skepticism, that new products can be tried.  Casts are not cement boots....they are a tool that one can choose to use OR NOT. 
 
Amberlee
www.fivepineranch.com
Please Visit Our Site!
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Ute
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: [ECHoof] Re: Update on GP dressage horse with founder

I very much agree with Dawn, especially on this point:
 
"At least there are now quite a few barefoot trimmers who have some
kind of certification and referrals that these people can go to for
trimming and booting to make their horses comfortable, get some
movement, and start healing that is relatively simple. Prepping a
foot correctly for shoeing, etc. is NOT simple, and out of the realm
of the average horse owner, who has no choice but to rely on their
farrier."
 
Over and over again I and others have found, that when people start to apply shoe "gadgets" to hooves without addressing the real underlying cause(s), the hooves will break down further until it is allowed to heal barefoot. It certainly sounds like this GP horse went down this path. Shoeing band-aid after band-aid was applied and the root cause ignored, heck even missed when the horse foundered. And the fact that this seems to again support peripheral hoofwall loading which research has shown is detrimental to overall hoof health. If we continue to spread myths like this, we do horses harm.
 
I can see the Equicast perhaps being a solution for a hoof with severe hoofwall trauma, but not for laminitis and founder cases. Those hooves will most effectively heal bare, with correct trimming, diet and exercise. As with many things, keeping it simple is usually the best approach.
 
We need to listen more to the horses - they will tell you what works and does not. And always challenge accepted wisdoms, because they may be outdated or simply wrong!
 
Ute

 
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe  - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 7:21 AM
Subject: [ECHoof] Re: Update on GP dressage horse with founder

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, Abby Bloxsom wrote:
>
our #1 goal here is to get the horse as sound as possible as fast
as
> possible. Somehow you're trying to get me to say that shoes are
better
> than bare feet. They're not, in an ideal world. But we do NOT
all live
> in an ideal world. On this list we work where the rubber meets
the road
> - live feet on real horses, with stressed-out owners and sometimes
> uncooperative vets and farriers. There are many ways to restore
ideal
> hoof function in rehab, but you need to recognize that what suits
your
> purist sensibilities is not right for all.

Abby,
I agree with what you are saying in that in the real world, all the
above is true. Something that you may no longer be keeping in mind
since you have so much experience casting is that almost no one else
does have that experience. What you are advocating requires some
experience and judgement, on either the part of the owner or the
farrier. I think we both know that for every good conceientous
trimmer or shoer out there, there's 50 who either are careless,
haven't picked up a farrier journal or looked at an online journal
in years, or have no interest or incentive to change anything.
How many people who join the EC list with laminitic IR or Cushings
horses have horses whose feet have been kept in ideal shape, shod or
not, by their farriers? Yet, you appear upset that these same people
aren't running back to their farrier's with a new technique that is
barely known outside of a small section of the country, and feeling
comfortable that their farrier will, 1. apply the technique, 2.
apply it correctly and well.

At least there are now quite a few barefoot trimmers who have some
kind of certification and referrals that these people can go to for
trimming and booting to make their horses comfortable, get some
movement, and start healing that is relatively simple. Prepping a
foot correctly for shoeing, etc. is NOT simple, and out of the realm
of the average horse owner, who has no choice but to rely on their
farrier.

The GP horse that was the basis for this discussion has been reset
in four point balance shoes and pads at 5-6 weeks for years by a
full time professional farrier. Owner would only take off hind shoes
in the winter, and of course, the hind feet would chunk out and
break up badly. Owner says horse has been flat footed for years
also, and could not go without front shoes or he would be lame.

When the horse became obviously painful, owner had been suspicious
that horse was becoming laminitic and asked farrier at reset if
there were signs of founder. Farrier said no. Horse became severely
painful four days after reset.
Owner's regular vet was called out, who took xrays of front(none on
hind), dispensed bute, recommended stall rest and said nothing(I was
there and witnessed this)about diet, fact that horse was obese with
fat pads, etc. Owner went to vet's office in the afternoon, told
horse had rotated five degrees, need to get heels down, stall rest,
try Equioxx for pain. Told owner he had recently sent client with
foundered horse to Ric Redden and "that didn't work out".

Farrier came out that afternoon , pulled shoes, cut down heels, said
he couldn't trim heels any further due to pull on DDFT, and left. I
looked at horse the next day and was not only floored at how flat
feet are, but bar, heel triangle sole is paper thin. All heel area
sole can be depressed with gentle pressure from thumb.
Owner next consulted with "expert" lameness veterinarian she has
used for horse's past suspensory injury halfway across state. She
makes 240 mile round trip to office and is sold a pair of Ric
Redden's rocker boots, a Ric Redden lameness book with instructions
on how to apply boots, told to use boots until horse is comfortable,
then find one of two farrier's in the entire state of Michigan that
have trained under Redden to put on Redden's designed shoes. Horse
is to be stalled for possibly six months, and by the way, here is
some Carafate to deal with ulcers.

Put yourself in the owner's place.(By the way, this person is not
just a backyard owner, or even an amateur with money to buy a GP
dressage horse. She is a Pony Club A grad and examiner, a USDF L
judge, and USDF assistant instructor who owns her own training and
boarding facility. She has always been diligent and up to date on
caring for her horses, and had only dealt with one prior founder on
a client's mare who developed a severe uterine infection after
foaling. If you recall, the GP horse was on high fat and oil for
shivers, originally recommended by Beth Valentine,DVM).

I think it would be more beneficial to everyone for more information
on casting to be available, so that people could choose to use it
with some confidence. It's hard to get people to experiment with
stuff if they have other established options available, such as
trimming and booting.(We have several certified trimmers in our
area, and many of us have successfully rehabbed our own horses. If I
had the option of using you to treat my horses and you could
demonstrate why shoeing them with the goal of achieving an ideal
foot and eventual barefoot, I would certainly consider it, as most
reasonable people would. But I didn't, and my friend's GP horse
doesn't have that option either.

> Quoting from the Ramey page you gave:
>
> > Recent data shows that peripheral loading of the foot reduces
hoof
> > perfusion by almost 50%.... Immediately.
>
>
> Not quite sure why you're making this argument at this point? I'm
not
> in any way talking about peripheral loading of the foot. Again,
quite
> to the contrary. I'm talking about supporting, developing, and
> preserving natural concavity by using an appropriate protective
device
> during the period of time that a fragile hoof needs it.
>
> Keep in mind that peripheral loading also occurs when an unshod
foot
> stands on hard ground. As a matter of fact, the pictures in that
> article show peripheral loading of the forefoot.


Which is why the Epic boots with pad inserts were developed, so that
heel and sole could share in the load and the horse would not just
be standing on its walls.
I could see where shoeing and casting the foot with some kind of
domed support in the sole would be beneficial. Again, Abby, this is
where the average horse owner would need someone with your
experience and expertise to apply the pads, shoes, and casts and
unless you can clone yourself many times over, many people on the EC
list are going to have to look to other options if they want to
improve their horses feet.
Dawn

_


Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

I'm not presuming to answer for Abby, but I did read/interpret that
differently. I do understand your point entirely but, for whatever
reason, his owners would not or could not take on the expensive of a
prolonged rescue and rehab. The moral of the story was that the casts
saved the horse's life and got him a home. Whether the little boy sat
on his back or not is probably a side issue. The casts provided him
with the comfort, support and mechanism to be mobile and more rapidly
mobilize those abscesses and regrow his hoof. It was a win-win
situation.

Hoof casts, like casts around fractures, serve a purpose that nothing
else can accomplish (short of pins, screws and plates). They maintain
3 dimensional stability and alignment. By doing so, they protect the
structures inside them from forces they may be too weak to withstand
without further damage. They allow the foot to function as it would
if it's own hoof wall was healthy and normally shaped.

Eleanor

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, "sorayacharlotte"
<sorayacharlotte@...> wrote:

Hello Abby...I have read many of your successes with interest as
you
use shoes as well as barefoot and I prefer barefoot. However I am
always open to correction etc, so I read everything to learn as
much
as poss.
I was so disapointed to read this response from you...I am not
looking for an argument and neither am I trying to slight your
comments; Are you really saying that the horse who is worth a
million
for his temperament who is a cripple because of his previous
farrier
cannot be given the summer off work? Are you really saying that the
job of the equicast is to allow a human to work a cripple? To make
a
cripple usable until winter arrives?
In your message you say that he blew 4 abscesses in summer and was
miserable without boots. Yet after a winter without boots & casts,
he
becomes a good cantidate for bare-foot? That just reads like his
healing was postponed until the little boy no longer wanted to ride
him. Among us humans the ones most likely to dote on a pony who
cannot be ridden are the children. Give a child a pony and
say 'he's
yours' and that child will do whatever necessary for their pony as
long as they understand it is in the pony's best interests. I don't
think the boy would have minded.
The reason I posted was because I am always reading /listening to
different points of view; every situation is individual and should
be
treated as such. And then the bombshell that actually maybe casts
etc
really are just a way to make a horse in pain please its human.
Please don't take this email as agressive: I am very genuine and my
comments come from a desire to understand many different POV.
So did I understand your post correctly?
Soraya
PS my first pony had been severly mistreated
(starving/lice/dermatitis/worms/etc)and needed rehab. I loved her
to
bits for almost a year before I sat on her back. I always felt
privilaged to have known her, not short done by because I couldn't
ride for a while.)

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, Abby Bloxsom <dearab@> wrote>

Let me tell you a story. An 11-year old boy gets his first
horse -
an
old retired school horse who was "retired" because his farrier
had
basically demolished his feet, literally an inch too long on
shoes
2
sizes too small. All toe, no heel. The horse is worth a million
for
temperament, but he's a cripple. It's April. Are we going to
tell
this
little boy he can't ride his horse for another YEAR because his
feet
need to be rehabbed? No. We trim aggressively, put a nice big
shoe
with the breakover under the tip of P3, fit long & full under the
heel,
and cast him. Under the cast, his foot fills barely over half
the
length of his shoe at the heel. Set up this way and cast, the
horse is
sound enough to do walk and slow trotting for the extent of the
season.
He blows FOUR (count 'em) abscesses during the summer. By
September
he even trots a few cross rails. By November we pull the
casts/shoes, &
he's miserable outside of boots. Next trim, the last of the bad
growth
in the hindfoot is gone and he's standing on good solid heels.
Boots go
on the shelf, and the horse is on pasture rest until spring -
each
trim
he gets sounder and sounder. Looks like he may be a proper
barefoot
horse by the time April rolls around and his little boy is ready
to
learn to canter.

The family could not afford to pay for daily lessons on a school
horse,
nor to keep yet another horse at home while the Big Guy grew new
feet.
So we made do. Are you going to tell me, the horse, the boy, and
his
mother that this was the wrong thing to do because shoes restrict
circulation?

-Abby




--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

Which is why the Epic boots with pad inserts were developed, so
that
heel and sole could share in the load and the horse would not just
be standing on its walls.
I could see where shoeing and casting the foot with some kind of
domed support in the sole would be beneficial. Again, Abby, this is
where the average horse owner would need someone with your
experience and expertise to apply the pads, shoes, and casts and
unless you can clone yourself many times over, many people on the
EC
list are going to have to look to other options if they want to
improve their horses feet.
Dawn,

Have you looked at the web site?

http://www.equicast.us

Have you requested the video?

They are VERY easy to apply. I only wasted one roll the first time
they were used.

Not every horse needs these, but there are some where they provide a
protection and level of pain relief that simply is not possible
otherwise.

Eleanor


Ute <ute@...>
 

Paul, there was no tone, other than being passionate about doing the right thing for horses. I simply stated my opinion, as did Dawn, just as strongly as Abby stated hers. We are on equal footing as long as we are respectful, are  we not?
 
 
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe  - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: [ECHoof] Re: Update on GP dressage horse with founder

Ute,

One of the moderators of this group stated that they didn't like your tone or Dawn's.  It's not a matter of what works or what doesn't.  It's not a matter of fact.  It's how it's being delivered.  Please change it.  That's all.

Paul Davis
"Aptly Asked"
Moderator





Ute wrote:

Gang ups are usually associated with being rude and disrespectful to the other person, including name calling . I do not see any of this happening here. Rather we simply disagree with the approach  as presented, as it continues to perpetuate some hoof management solutions that we have found to be detrimental to hoof health in the long run!  
 
Ute 
 
 
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe  - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: [ECHoof] Re: Update on GP dressage horse with founder

Ute and Dawn, your posts on this subject are starting to read like a **gang up** because they aren't fitting YOUR ideals on hoof rehab.  Please do consider this when responding.  The comments regarding the little boys horse are in particular disturbing Dawn and I personally disliked the tone of your post.  I completely agree with Abby that "real world" demands are often at opposite ends of "the ideal way to rehab" particularly when it comes to horses.  Did you ever consider that this family could have just as easily dumped Abby for a farrier that would have slapped a set of shoes on the horse and said horse could have trotted around lame and in pain? 
 
The rest of us non-hoof gurus are interested in reading the pros and cons of hoof care and equicasts but I tend to "lose information" when it is presented in accusatory tones.  Hopefully this discussion can continue productively and without the perfect world ideals but with some acceptance, even skepticism, that new products can be tried.  Casts are not cement boots....they are a tool that one can choose to use OR NOT. 
 
Amberlee
www.fivepineranch.com
Please Visit Our Site!
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Ute
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: [ECHoof] Re: Update on GP dressage horse with founder

I very much agree with Dawn, especially on this point:
 
"At least there are now quite a few barefoot trimmers who have some
kind of certification and referrals that these people can go to for
trimming and booting to make their horses comfortable, get some
movement, and start healing that is relatively simple. Prepping a
foot correctly for shoeing, etc. is NOT simple, and out of the realm
of the average horse owner, who has no choice but to rely on their
farrier."
 
Over and over again I and others have found, that when people start to apply shoe "gadgets" to hooves without addressing the real underlying cause(s), the hooves will break down further until it is allowed to heal barefoot. It certainly sounds like this GP horse went down this path. Shoeing band-aid after band-aid was applied and the root cause ignored, heck even missed when the horse foundered. And the fact that this seems to again support peripheral hoofwall loading which research has shown is detrimental to overall hoof health. If we continue to spread myths like this, we do horses harm.
 
I can see the Equicast perhaps being a solution for a hoof with severe hoofwall trauma, but not for laminitis and founder cases. Those hooves will most effectively heal bare, with correct trimming, diet and exercise. As with many things, keeping it simple is usually the best approach.
 
We need to listen more to the horses - they will tell you what works and does not. And always challenge accepted wisdoms, because they may be outdated or simply wrong!
 
Ute

 
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe  - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 7:21 AM
Subject: [ECHoof] Re: Update on GP dressage horse with founder

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, Abby Bloxsom wrote:
>
our #1 goal here is to get the horse as sound as possible as fast
as
> possible. Somehow you're trying to get me to say that shoes are
better
> than bare feet. They're not, in an ideal world. But we do NOT
all live
> in an ideal world. On this list we work where the rubber meets
the road
> - live feet on real horses, with stressed-out owners and sometimes
> uncooperative vets and farriers. There are many ways to restore
ideal
> hoof function in rehab, but you need to recognize that what suits
your
> purist sensibilities is not right for all.

Abby,
I agree with what you are saying in that in the real world, all the
above is true. Something that you may no longer be keeping in mind
since you have so much experience casting is that almost no one else
does have that experience. What you are advocating requires some
experience and judgement, on either the part of the owner or the
farrier. I think we both know that for every good conceientous
trimmer or shoer out there, there's 50 who either are careless,
haven't picked up a farrier journal or looked at an online journal
in years, or have no interest or incentive to change anything.
How many people who join the EC list with laminitic IR or Cushings
horses have horses whose feet have been kept in ideal shape, shod or
not, by their farriers? Yet, you appear upset that these same people
aren't running back to their farrier's with a new technique that is
barely known outside of a small section of the country, and feeling
comfortable that their farrier will, 1. apply the technique, 2.
apply it correctly and well.

At least there are now quite a few barefoot trimmers who have some
kind of certification and referrals that these people can go to for
trimming and booting to make their horses comfortable, get some
movement, and start healing that is relatively simple. Prepping a
foot correctly for shoeing, etc. is NOT simple, and out of the realm
of the average horse owner, who has no choice but to rely on their
farrier.

The GP horse that was the basis for this discussion has been reset
in four point balance shoes and pads at 5-6 weeks for years by a
full time professional farrier. Owner would only take off hind shoes
in the winter, and of course, the hind feet would chunk out and
break up badly. Owner says horse has been flat footed for years
also, and could not go without front shoes or he would be lame.

When the horse became obviously painful, owner had been suspicious
that horse was becoming laminitic and asked farrier at reset if
there were signs of founder. Farrier said no. Horse became severely
painful four days after reset.
Owner's regular vet was called out, who took xrays of front(none on
hind), dispensed bute, recommended stall rest and said nothing(I was
there and witnessed this)about diet, fact that horse was obese with
fat pads, etc. Owner went to vet's office in the afternoon, told
horse had rotated five degrees, need to get heels down, stall rest,
try Equioxx for pain. Told owner he had recently sent client with
foundered horse to Ric Redden and "that didn't work out".

Farrier came out that afternoon , pulled shoes, cut down heels, said
he couldn't trim heels any further due to pull on DDFT, and left. I
looked at horse the next day and was not only floored at how flat
feet are, but bar, heel triangle sole is paper thin. All heel area
sole can be depressed with gentle pressure from thumb.
Owner next consulted with "expert" lameness veterinarian she has
used for horse's past suspensory injury halfway across state. She
makes 240 mile round trip to office and is sold a pair of Ric
Redden's rocker boots, a Ric Redden lameness book with instructions
on how to apply boots, told to use boots until horse is comfortable,
then find one of two farrier's in the entire state of Michigan that
have trained under Redden to put on Redden's designed shoes. Horse
is to be stalled for possibly six months, and by the way, here is
some Carafate to deal with ulcers.

Put yourself in the owner's place.(By the way, this person is not
just a backyard owner, or even an amateur with money to buy a GP
dressage horse. She is a Pony Club A grad and examiner, a USDF L
judge, and USDF assistant instructor who owns her own training and
boarding facility. She has always been diligent and up to date on
caring for her horses, and had only dealt with one prior founder on
a client's mare who developed a severe uterine infection after
foaling. If you recall, the GP horse was on high fat and oil for
shivers, originally recommended by Beth Valentine,DVM).

I think it would be more beneficial to everyone for more information
on casting to be available, so that people could choose to use it
with some confidence. It's hard to get people to experiment with
stuff if they have other established options available, such as
trimming and booting.(We have several certified trimmers in our
area, and many of us have successfully rehabbed our own horses. If I
had the option of using you to treat my horses and you could
demonstrate why shoeing them with the goal of achieving an ideal
foot and eventual barefoot, I would certainly consider it, as most
reasonable people would. But I didn't, and my friend's GP horse
doesn't have that option either.

> Quoting from the Ramey page you gave:
>
> > Recent data shows that peripheral loading of the foot reduces
hoof
> > perfusion by almost 50%.... Immediately.
>
>
> Not quite sure why you're making this argument at this point? I'm
not
> in any way talking about peripheral loading of the foot. Again,
quite
> to the contrary. I'm talking about supporting, developing, and
> preserving natural concavity by using an appropriate protective
device
> during the period of time that a fragile hoof needs it.
>
> Keep in mind that peripheral loading also occurs when an unshod
foot
> stands on hard ground. As a matter of fact, the pictures in that
> article show peripheral loading of the forefoot.


Which is why the Epic boots with pad inserts were developed, so that
heel and sole could share in the load and the horse would not just
be standing on its walls.
I could see where shoeing and casting the foot with some kind of
domed support in the sole would be beneficial. Again, Abby, this is
where the average horse owner would need someone with your
experience and expertise to apply the pads, shoes, and casts and
unless you can clone yourself many times over, many people on the EC
list are going to have to look to other options if they want to
improve their horses feet.
Dawn

_


Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

I have to strongly disagree that there is an abundance of competent
hoof care professionals out there - whether barefoot or traditional.
Getting a simple correct trim is NOT easy. A correct balanced trim is
at the core of any approach, just as important for barefoot as shod.

Thinking that barefoot is easy is a big mistake. Trimming correctly
is no easier for barefoot and getting a good trim is the single most
difficult thing for most people.

Even if we assume all hooves would heal with no intervention beyond
barefoot, why would you automatically reject something that cut
healing time and give the horse significant pain relief? Boots and
pads are not "natural" either.

Again, I'm not saying that every horse needs them, and frankly I
don't have enough experience with them myself to know if they are
always superior, but I DO know at least that there are situations
where nothing else can do what the casts can do. Go over to EC and
read Lorna's account of what they did for Drummer. Barefoot, pads and
boots weren't getting the job done. He had extensive laminar damage
from selenium toxicity quite a while ago. Healing is not automatic
simply because the cause is removed. His hooves were trying to heal,
but were too "broken" to do it.

Eleanor

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, "Ute" <ute@...> wrote:

I very much agree with Dawn, especially on this point:

"At least there are now quite a few barefoot trimmers who have some
kind of certification and referrals that these people can go to for
trimming and booting to make their horses comfortable, get some
movement, and start healing that is relatively simple. Prepping a
foot correctly for shoeing, etc. is NOT simple, and out of the
realm
of the average horse owner, who has no choice but to rely on their
farrier."

Over and over again I and others have found, that when people start
to apply shoe "gadgets" to hooves without addressing the real
underlying cause(s), the hooves will break down further until it is
allowed to heal barefoot. It certainly sounds like this GP horse went
down this path. Shoeing band-aid after band-aid was applied and the
root cause ignored, heck even missed when the horse foundered. And
the fact that this seems to again support peripheral hoofwall loading
which research has shown is detrimental to overall hoof health. If we
continue to spread myths like this, we do horses harm.

I can see the Equicast perhaps being a solution for a hoof with
severe hoofwall trauma, but not for laminitis and founder cases.
Those hooves will most effectively heal bare, with correct trimming,
diet and exercise. As with many things, keeping it simple is usually
the best approach.

We need to listen more to the horses - they will tell you what
works and does not. And always challenge accepted wisdoms, because
they may be outdated or simply wrong!

Ute



BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance
Barefoot Trimmer

www.balancedstep.com

----- Original Message -----
From: parkell2001
To: ECHoof@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 7:21 AM
Subject: [ECHoof] Re: Update on GP dressage horse with founder


--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, Abby Bloxsom <dearab@> wrote:
>
our #1 goal here is to get the horse as sound as possible as fast
as
> possible. Somehow you're trying to get me to say that shoes are
better
> than bare feet. They're not, in an ideal world. But we do NOT
all live
> in an ideal world. On this list we work where the rubber meets
the road
> - live feet on real horses, with stressed-out owners and
sometimes
> uncooperative vets and farriers. There are many ways to restore
ideal
> hoof function in rehab, but you need to recognize that what
suits
your
> purist sensibilities is not right for all.

Abby,
I agree with what you are saying in that in the real world, all
the
above is true. Something that you may no longer be keeping in
mind
since you have so much experience casting is that almost no one
else
does have that experience. What you are advocating requires some
experience and judgement, on either the part of the owner or the
farrier. I think we both know that for every good conceientous
trimmer or shoer out there, there's 50 who either are careless,
haven't picked up a farrier journal or looked at an online
journal
in years, or have no interest or incentive to change anything.
How many people who join the EC list with laminitic IR or
Cushings
horses have horses whose feet have been kept in ideal shape, shod
or
not, by their farriers? Yet, you appear upset that these same
people
aren't running back to their farrier's with a new technique that
is
barely known outside of a small section of the country, and
feeling
comfortable that their farrier will, 1. apply the technique, 2.
apply it correctly and well.

At least there are now quite a few barefoot trimmers who have
some
kind of certification and referrals that these people can go to
for
trimming and booting to make their horses comfortable, get some
movement, and start healing that is relatively simple. Prepping a
foot correctly for shoeing, etc. is NOT simple, and out of the
realm
of the average horse owner, who has no choice but to rely on
their
farrier.

The GP horse that was the basis for this discussion has been
reset
in four point balance shoes and pads at 5-6 weeks for years by a
full time professional farrier. Owner would only take off hind
shoes
in the winter, and of course, the hind feet would chunk out and
break up badly. Owner says horse has been flat footed for years
also, and could not go without front shoes or he would be lame.

When the horse became obviously painful, owner had been
suspicious
that horse was becoming laminitic and asked farrier at reset if
there were signs of founder. Farrier said no. Horse became
severely
painful four days after reset.
Owner's regular vet was called out, who took xrays of front(none
on
hind), dispensed bute, recommended stall rest and said nothing(I
was
there and witnessed this)about diet, fact that horse was obese
with
fat pads, etc. Owner went to vet's office in the afternoon, told
horse had rotated five degrees, need to get heels down, stall
rest,
try Equioxx for pain. Told owner he had recently sent client with
foundered horse to Ric Redden and "that didn't work out".

Farrier came out that afternoon , pulled shoes, cut down heels,
said
he couldn't trim heels any further due to pull on DDFT, and left.
I
looked at horse the next day and was not only floored at how flat
feet are, but bar, heel triangle sole is paper thin. All heel
area
sole can be depressed with gentle pressure from thumb.
Owner next consulted with "expert" lameness veterinarian she has
used for horse's past suspensory injury halfway across state. She
makes 240 mile round trip to office and is sold a pair of Ric
Redden's rocker boots, a Ric Redden lameness book with
instructions
on how to apply boots, told to use boots until horse is
comfortable,
then find one of two farrier's in the entire state of Michigan
that
have trained under Redden to put on Redden's designed shoes.
Horse
is to be stalled for possibly six months, and by the way, here is
some Carafate to deal with ulcers.

Put yourself in the owner's place.(By the way, this person is not
just a backyard owner, or even an amateur with money to buy a GP
dressage horse. She is a Pony Club A grad and examiner, a USDF L
judge, and USDF assistant instructor who owns her own training
and
boarding facility. She has always been diligent and up to date on
caring for her horses, and had only dealt with one prior founder
on
a client's mare who developed a severe uterine infection after
foaling. If you recall, the GP horse was on high fat and oil for
shivers, originally recommended by Beth Valentine,DVM).

I think it would be more beneficial to everyone for more
information
on casting to be available, so that people could choose to use it
with some confidence. It's hard to get people to experiment with
stuff if they have other established options available, such as
trimming and booting.(We have several certified trimmers in our
area, and many of us have successfully rehabbed our own horses.
If I
had the option of using you to treat my horses and you could
demonstrate why shoeing them with the goal of achieving an ideal
foot and eventual barefoot, I would certainly consider it, as
most
reasonable people would. But I didn't, and my friend's GP horse
doesn't have that option either.

> Quoting from the Ramey page you gave:
>
> > Recent data shows that peripheral loading of the foot reduces
hoof
> > perfusion by almost 50%.... Immediately.
>
>
> Not quite sure why you're making this argument at this point?
I'm
not
> in any way talking about peripheral loading of the foot. Again,
quite
> to the contrary. I'm talking about supporting, developing, and
> preserving natural concavity by using an appropriate protective
device
> during the period of time that a fragile hoof needs it.
>
> Keep in mind that peripheral loading also occurs when an unshod
foot
> stands on hard ground. As a matter of fact, the pictures in
that
> article show peripheral loading of the forefoot.


Which is why the Epic boots with pad inserts were developed, so
that
heel and sole could share in the load and the horse would not
just
be standing on its walls.
I could see where shoeing and casting the foot with some kind of
domed support in the sole would be beneficial. Again, Abby, this
is
where the average horse owner would need someone with your
experience and expertise to apply the pads, shoes, and casts and
unless you can clone yourself many times over, many people on the
EC
list are going to have to look to other options if they want to
improve their horses feet.
Dawn


Pam Beall
 

I'm gonna order some and see what kind of mess I can make of it.


PAM
 

-----Original Message-----
From: ECHoof@... [mailto:ECHoof@...]On Behalf Of Abby Bloxsom
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 10:00 PM
To: ECHoof
Subject: [ECHoof] Re: Update on GP dressage horse with founder

Ute wrote:
>>
>> 1) using a shoe actually improves the action of the hoof cast as it
>> provides a smooth surface inside the cast for the hoof to move on,
> so that function is maintained
>
> I disagree -
>

#1 - Do you understand that the shoe is NOT NAILED TO THE FOOT inside
the cast??

#2 - Do you understand that I did not say the shoe improves the function
of the hoof. I said that the shoe improves the action of the hoof cast.
Do you have research or recent experience with hoof casting that would
lead you to a different opinion?

#3 - The hoof can flex and expand inside the cast. Since it is not
nailed to the shoe, the action of the hoof on the shoe surface is
remarkably similar to the action of a bare hoof on a hard, flat surface.
The cast provides dynamic support to the hoof capsule and mimics the
action of yielding footing on the sole.

#4 - The hoof can only NATURALLY flex and expand if it's healthy and the
trim is good. An unhealthy hoof cannot function normally. A poorly
trimmed hoof cannot function normally. An unhealthy, poorly trimmed
hoof will FUNCTION BETTER if it is trimmed as well as possible *and
shod* (even with dreaded nails, actually) than it will if it is left to
be unhealthy and poorly trimmed. There may indeed be so much damage in
a compromised foot that the trim it needs to put it right will leave it
so weak that it benefits from being shod.

> Research has shown, that healthy hoof function can only be maintained
> and improved if the hoof can naturally flex and expand. Shoes simply
> interfere with this mechanism.
>

"Shoes". All shoes? On every foot? On every horse? With sole support?
With hoof casts? Short answer, no. The thing you're really missing
about what I'm saying is this:

If a horse has compromised feet (laminitis or just plain damaged feet)
our #1 goal here is to get the horse as sound as possible as fast as
possible. Somehow you're trying to get me to say that shoes are better
than bare feet. They're not, in an ideal world. But we do NOT all live
in an ideal world. On this list we work where the rubber meets the road
- live feet on real horses, with stressed-out owners and sometimes
uncooperative vets and farriers. There are many ways to restore ideal
hoof function in rehab, but you need to recognize that what suits your
purist sensibilities is not right for all.

Quoting from the Ramey page you gave:

> Recent data shows that peripheral loading of the foot reduces hoof
> perfusion by almost 50%.... Immediately.

Not quite sure why you're making this argument at this point? I'm not
in any way talking about peripheral loading of the foot. Again, quite
to the contrary. I'm talking about supporting, developing, and
preserving natural concavity by using an appropriate protective device
during the period of time that a fragile hoof needs it.

Keep in mind that peripheral loading also occurs when an unshod foot
stands on hard ground. As a matter of fact, the pictures in that
article show peripheral loading of the forefoot.

Let me tell you a story. An 11-year old boy gets his first horse - an
old retired school horse who was "retired" because his farrier had
basically demolished his feet, literally an inch too long on shoes 2
sizes too small. All toe, no heel. The horse is worth a million for
temperament, but he's a cripple. It's April. Are we going to tell this
little boy he can't ride his horse for another YEAR because his feet
need to be rehabbed? No. We trim aggressively, put a nice big shoe
with the breakover under the tip of P3, fit long & full under the heel,
and cast him. Under the cast, his foot fills barely over half the
length of his shoe at the heel. Set up this way and cast, the horse is
sound enough to do walk and slow trotting for the extent of the season.
He blows FOUR (count 'em) abscesses during the summer. By September
he even trots a few cross rails. By November we pull the casts/shoes, &
he's miserable outside of boots. Next trim, the last of the bad growth
in the hindfoot is gone and he's standing on good solid heels. Boots go
on the shelf, and the horse is on pasture rest until spring - each trim
he gets sounder and sounder. Looks like he may be a proper barefoot
horse by the time April rolls around and his little boy is ready to
learn to canter.

The family could not afford to pay for daily lessons on a school horse,
nor to keep yet another horse at home while the Big Guy grew new feet.
So we made do. Are you going to tell me, the horse, the boy, and his
mother that this was the wrong thing to do because shoes restrict
circulation?

-Abby

--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


Claire C. Cox-Wilson <shotgun.ranch@...>
 

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, "Eleanor Kellon, VMD" <drkellon@...> wrote:

I have to strongly disagree that there is an abundance of competent
hoof care professionals out there - whether barefoot or traditional.
Getting a simple correct trim is NOT easy. A correct balanced trim is
at the core of any approach, just as important for barefoot as shod.

Thinking that barefoot is easy is a big mistake. Trimming correctly
is no easier for barefoot and getting a good trim is the single most
difficult thing for most people.

Even if we assume all hooves would heal with no intervention beyond
barefoot, why would you automatically reject something that cut
healing time and give the horse significant pain relief? Boots and
pads are not "natural" either.
Totally agree with Dr. Kellon good trimmers (barefoot or farrier) are
very hard to find. Properly balancing a hoof is an art and knowing
how much sole to remove takes a lot of experience & know-how. I can
back up a toe and trim overgrown frogs & bars in a pinch. But I really
respect a farrier/trimmer that looks at the horse as a whole and can
balance the hooves to the horse's conformation, not the what they
think the ideal hoof should look like.
And while my horses have been barefoot for 8 years, I recently put
front shoes on one of my horses because structurally (conformation
issues, etc.) he is more comfortable with the extra support.
So...things are just not black & white....every horse & situation is
unique....some solutions work for some, and not others. The trick is
having the wisdom to know when to do what & when.
Claire from AZ


Ute <ute@...>
 

Sadly , I have to agree with this. It is very difficult to find competent hoof experts, bare or traditional. I find that the best usually are open minded, listen well to the horses needs and continue to learn instead of just relying on what they once learned .
 
 
BALANCED STEP
Ute Miethe  - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance Barefoot Trimmer
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 11:18 AM
Subject: [ECHoof] Re: Update on GP dressage horse with founder

I have to strongly disagree that there is an abundance of competent
hoof care professionals out there - whether barefoot or traditional.
Getting a simple correct trim is NOT easy. A correct balanced trim is
at the core of any approach, just as important for barefoot as shod.

Thinking that barefoot is easy is a big mistake. Trimming correctly
is no easier for barefoot and getting a good trim is the single most
difficult thing for most people.

Even if we assume all hooves would heal with no intervention beyond
barefoot, why would you automatically reject something that cut
healing time and give the horse significant pain relief? Boots and
pads are not "natural" either.

Again, I'm not saying that every horse needs them, and frankly I
don't have enough experience with them myself to know if they are
always superior, but I DO know at least that there are situations
where nothing else can do what the casts can do. Go over to EC and
read Lorna's account of what they did for Drummer. Barefoot, pads and
boots weren't getting the job done. He had extensive laminar damage
from selenium toxicity quite a while ago. Healing is not automatic
simply because the cause is removed. His hooves were trying to heal,
but were too "broken" to do it.

Eleanor

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, "Ute" wrote:
>
> I very much agree with Dawn, especially on this point:
>
> "At least there are now quite a few barefoot trimmers who have some
> kind of certification and referrals that these people can go to for
> trimming and booting to make their horses comfortable, get some
> movement, and start healing that is relatively simple. Prepping a
> foot correctly for shoeing, etc. is NOT simple, and out of the
realm
> of the average horse owner, who has no choice but to rely on their
> farrier."
>
> Over and over again I and others have found, that when people start
to apply shoe "gadgets" to hooves without addressing the real
underlying cause(s), the hooves will break down further until it is
allowed to heal barefoot. It certainly sounds like this GP horse went
down this path. Shoeing band-aid after band-aid was applied and the
root cause ignored, heck even missed when the horse foundered. And
the fact that this seems to again support peripheral hoofwall loading
which research has shown is detrimental to overall hoof health. If we
continue to spread myths like this, we do horses harm.
>
> I can see the Equicast perhaps being a solution for a hoof with
severe hoofwall trauma, but not for laminitis and founder cases.
Those hooves will most effectively heal bare, with correct trimming,
diet and exercise. As with many things, keeping it simple is usually
the best approach.
>
> We need to listen more to the horses - they will tell you what
works and does not. And always challenge accepted wisdoms, because
they may be outdated or simply wrong!
>
> Ute
>
>
>
> BALANCED STEP
> Ute Miethe - LMT/LAMT NCTMB
> Nationally Certified Massage Therapist & Natural Performance
Barefoot Trimmer
>
> www.balancedstep.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: parkell2001
> To: ECHoof@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 7:21 AM
> Subject: [ECHoof] Re: Update on GP dressage horse with founder
>
>
> --- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, Abby Bloxsom wrote:
> >
> our #1 goal here is to get the horse as sound as possible as fast
> as
> > possible. Somehow you're trying to get me to say that shoes are
> better
> > than bare feet. They're not, in an ideal world. But we do NOT
> all live
> > in an ideal world. On this list we work where the rubber meets
> the road
> > - live feet on real horses, with stressed-out owners and
sometimes
> > uncooperative vets and farriers. There are many ways to restore
> ideal
> > hoof function in rehab, but you need to recognize that what
suits
> your
> > purist sensibilities is not right for all.
>
> Abby,
> I agree with what you are saying in that in the real world, all
the
> above is true. Something that you may no longer be keeping in
mind
> since you have so much experience casting is that almost no one
else
> does have that experience. What you are advocating requires some
> experience and judgement, on either the part of the owner or the
> farrier. I think we both know that for every good conceientous
> trimmer or shoer out there, there's 50 who either are careless,
> haven't picked up a farrier journal or looked at an online
journal
> in years, or have no interest or incentive to change anything.
> How many people who join the EC list with laminitic IR or
Cushings
> horses have horses whose feet have been kept in ideal shape, shod
or
> not, by their farriers? Yet, you appear upset that these same
people
> aren't running back to their farrier's with a new technique that
is
> barely known outside of a small section of the country, and
feeling
> comfortable that their farrier will, 1. apply the technique, 2.
> apply it correctly and well.
>
> At least there are now quite a few barefoot trimmers who have
some
> kind of certification and referrals that these people can go to
for
> trimming and booting to make their horses comfortable, get some
> movement, and start healing that is relatively simple. Prepping a
> foot correctly for shoeing, etc. is NOT simple, and out of the
realm
> of the average horse owner, who has no choice but to rely on
their
> farrier.
>
> The GP horse that was the basis for this discussion has been
reset
> in four point balance shoes and pads at 5-6 weeks for years by a
> full time professional farrier. Owner would only take off hind
shoes
> in the winter, and of course, the hind feet would chunk out and
> break up badly. Owner says horse has been flat footed for years
> also, and could not go without front shoes or he would be lame.
>
> When the horse became obviously painful, owner had been
suspicious
> that horse was becoming laminitic and asked farrier at reset if
> there were signs of founder. Farrier said no. Horse became
severely
> painful four days after reset.
> Owner's regular vet was called out, who took xrays of front(none
on
> hind), dispensed bute, recommended stall rest and said nothing(I
was
> there and witnessed this)about diet, fact that horse was obese
with
> fat pads, etc. Owner went to vet's office in the afternoon, told
> horse had rotated five degrees, need to get heels down, stall
rest,
> try Equioxx for pain. Told owner he had recently sent client with
> foundered horse to Ric Redden and "that didn't work out".
>
> Farrier came out that afternoon , pulled shoes, cut down heels,
said
> he couldn't trim heels any further due to pull on DDFT, and left.
I
> looked at horse the next day and was not only floored at how flat
> feet are, but bar, heel triangle sole is paper thin. All heel
area
> sole can be depressed with gentle pressure from thumb.
> Owner next consulted with "expert" lameness veterinarian she has
> used for horse's past suspensory injury halfway across state. She
> makes 240 mile round trip to office and is sold a pair of Ric
> Redden's rocker boots, a Ric Redden lameness book with
instructions
> on how to apply boots, told to use boots until horse is
comfortable,
> then find one of two farrier's in the entire state of Michigan
that
> have trained under Redden to put on Redden's designed shoes.
Horse
> is to be stalled for possibly six months, and by the way, here is
> some Carafate to deal with ulcers.
>
> Put yourself in the owner's place.(By the way, this person is not
> just a backyard owner, or even an amateur with money to buy a GP
> dressage horse. She is a Pony Club A grad and examiner, a USDF L
> judge, and USDF assistant instructor who owns her own training
and
> boarding facility. She has always been diligent and up to date on
> caring for her horses, and had only dealt with one prior founder
on
> a client's mare who developed a severe uterine infection after
> foaling. If you recall, the GP horse was on high fat and oil for
> shivers, originally recommended by Beth Valentine,DVM).
>
> I think it would be more beneficial to everyone for more
information
> on casting to be available, so that people could choose to use it
> with some confidence. It's hard to get people to experiment with
> stuff if they have other established options available, such as
> trimming and booting.(We have several certified trimmers in our
> area, and many of us have successfully rehabbed our own horses.
If I
> had the option of using you to treat my horses and you could
> demonstrate why shoeing them with the goal of achieving an ideal
> foot and eventual barefoot, I would certainly consider it, as
most
> reasonable people would. But I didn't, and my friend's GP horse
> doesn't have that option either.
>
> > Quoting from the Ramey page you gave:
> >
> > > Recent data shows that peripheral loading of the foot reduces
> hoof
> > > perfusion by almost 50%.... Immediately.
> >
> >
> > Not quite sure why you're making this argument at this point?
I'm
> not
> > in any way talking about peripheral loading of the foot. Again,
> quite
> > to the contrary. I'm talking about supporting, developing, and
> > preserving natural concavity by using an appropriate protective
> device
> > during the period of time that a fragile hoof needs it.
> >
> > Keep in mind that peripheral loading also occurs when an unshod
> foot
> > stands on hard ground. As a matter of fact, the pictures in
that
> > article show peripheral loading of the forefoot.
>
>
> Which is why the Epic boots with pad inserts were developed, so
that
> heel and sole could share in the load and the horse would not
just
> be standing on its walls.
> I could see where shoeing and casting the foot with some kind of
> domed support in the sole would be beneficial. Again, Abby, this
is
> where the average horse owner would need someone with your
> experience and expertise to apply the pads, shoes, and casts and
> unless you can clone yourself many times over, many people on the
EC
> list are going to have to look to other options if they want to
> improve their horses feet.
> Dawn
>


Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

Tip: Practice with a dry roll until you figure out how to wrap it!

Eleanor

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, "Pam Beall" <beallp@...> wrote:

I'm gonna order some and see what kind of mess I can make of it. <G>


PAM

-----Original Message-----
From: ECHoof@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ECHoof@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of
Abby Bloxsom
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 10:00 PM
To: ECHoof
Subject: [ECHoof] Re: Update on GP dressage horse with founder


Ute wrote:
>>
>> 1) using a shoe actually improves the action of the hoof cast
as it
>> provides a smooth surface inside the cast for the hoof to move
on,
> so that function is maintained
>
> I disagree -
>

#1 - Do you understand that the shoe is NOT NAILED TO THE FOOT
inside
the cast??

#2 - Do you understand that I did not say the shoe improves the
function
of the hoof. I said that the shoe improves the action of the hoof
cast.
Do you have research or recent experience with hoof casting that
would
lead you to a different opinion?

#3 - The hoof can flex and expand inside the cast. Since it is not
nailed to the shoe, the action of the hoof on the shoe surface is
remarkably similar to the action of a bare hoof on a hard, flat
surface.
The cast provides dynamic support to the hoof capsule and mimics
the
action of yielding footing on the sole.

#4 - The hoof can only NATURALLY flex and expand if it's healthy
and the
trim is good. An unhealthy hoof cannot function normally. A poorly
trimmed hoof cannot function normally. An unhealthy, poorly
trimmed
hoof will FUNCTION BETTER if it is trimmed as well as possible
*and
shod* (even with dreaded nails, actually) than it will if it is
left to
be unhealthy and poorly trimmed. There may indeed be so much
damage in
a compromised foot that the trim it needs to put it right will
leave it
so weak that it benefits from being shod.

> Research has shown, that healthy hoof function can only be
maintained
> and improved if the hoof can naturally flex and expand. Shoes
simply
> interfere with this mechanism.
>

"Shoes". All shoes? On every foot? On every horse? With sole
support?
With hoof casts? Short answer, no. The thing you're really missing
about what I'm saying is this:

If a horse has compromised feet (laminitis or just plain damaged
feet)
our #1 goal here is to get the horse as sound as possible as fast
as
possible. Somehow you're trying to get me to say that shoes are
better
than bare feet. They're not, in an ideal world. But we do NOT all
live
in an ideal world. On this list we work where the rubber meets
the road
- live feet on real horses, with stressed-out owners and sometimes
uncooperative vets and farriers. There are many ways to restore
ideal
hoof function in rehab, but you need to recognize that what suits
your
purist sensibilities is not right for all.

Quoting from the Ramey page you gave:

> Recent data shows that peripheral loading of the foot reduces
hoof
> perfusion by almost 50%.... Immediately.

Not quite sure why you're making this argument at this point? I'm
not
in any way talking about peripheral loading of the foot. Again,
quite
to the contrary. I'm talking about supporting, developing, and
preserving natural concavity by using an appropriate protective
device
during the period of time that a fragile hoof needs it.

Keep in mind that peripheral loading also occurs when an unshod
foot
stands on hard ground. As a matter of fact, the pictures in that
article show peripheral loading of the forefoot.

Let me tell you a story. An 11-year old boy gets his first horse -
an
old retired school horse who was "retired" because his farrier had
basically demolished his feet, literally an inch too long on
shoes 2
sizes too small. All toe, no heel. The horse is worth a million
for
temperament, but he's a cripple. It's April. Are we going to tell
this
little boy he can't ride his horse for another YEAR because his
feet
need to be rehabbed? No. We trim aggressively, put a nice big shoe
with the breakover under the tip of P3, fit long & full under the
heel,
and cast him. Under the cast, his foot fills barely over half the
length of his shoe at the heel. Set up this way and cast, the
horse is
sound enough to do walk and slow trotting for the extent of the
season.
He blows FOUR (count 'em) abscesses during the summer. By
September
he even trots a few cross rails. By November we pull the
casts/shoes, &
he's miserable outside of boots. Next trim, the last of the bad
growth
in the hindfoot is gone and he's standing on good solid heels.
Boots go
on the shelf, and the horse is on pasture rest until spring -
each trim
he gets sounder and sounder. Looks like he may be a proper
barefoot
horse by the time April rolls around and his little boy is ready
to
learn to canter.

The family could not afford to pay for daily lessons on a school
horse,
nor to keep yet another horse at home while the Big Guy grew new
feet.
So we made do. Are you going to tell me, the horse, the boy, and
his
mother that this was the wrong thing to do because shoes restrict
circulation?

-Abby

--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


parkell2001 <kingdom@...>
 

--- In ECHoof@yahoogroups.com, 5 Pine Ranch <fivepineranch@...>
wrote:

Ute and Dawn, your posts on this subject are starting to read like
a **gang up** because they aren't fitting YOUR ideals on hoof
rehab. Please do consider this when responding. The comments
regarding the little boys horse are in particular disturbing Dawn
and I personally disliked the tone of your post.



Well, maybe Amberlee, you could direct your chastisment to the
person who commented regarding the little boys horse, as it wasn't
me. I made no comment about that story at all.

Talk about a gang up. I came on to the list to ask some questions
regarding Equioxx and Carafate, and am told that the horse is a
candidate for casts. When I start asking very direct questions about
the casts in an effort to learn about them, I am jumped on about how
a good shoe job beats a bad trim any day, and this is not a barefoot
list, and is off topic. I take it over here, and after explaining
the difficulty of getting expert hoof care from traditional farriers
in our area, I am told I have a tone and that I have ganged up with
someone (Ute) whom I've never met, never corresponded with, and
hadn't heard of before other than seeing the name listed on posts on
the EC lists, and haven't even acknowledge in my posts.
Even Dr. Kellon wants to know if I read the Equicasts website,
despite the fact that in one of my posts, I specifically state that
I am concerned about the fact that there is no scientific studies or
documentation about what the casts do on the website, and that I am
trying to get information on the casts, which is nonexistant except
for Dave's website.

Wow, talk about hostile. I apologize if somehow my questions
regarding a treatment technique espoused by the list's resident
farrier was construed as challenging her or attempting to discredit
her, as it certainly wasn't.If you read my original posts(not stuff
that other people have cut and pasted into their own replies),
you'll find that I am open to the idea of the therapeutic use of the
casts with what little understanding I have of them, despite the
fact that I advocate barefoot horses. I'm really surprised at how
defensive some of you are about this. And it's unfortunate really,
because one of the most serious aspects of Cushings or IR is
laminitis and founder and it management. Constructive discussion
with facts whether it is barefoot care or shoeing is certainly
needed, but I sure don't have much interest in engaging in such
discussion here when everything you ask or comment is turned into a
personal affront.
Dawn Wagstaff


I completely agree with Abby that "real world" demands are often at
opposite ends of "the ideal way to rehab" particularly when it comes
to horses. Did you ever consider that this family could have just
as easily dumped Abby for a farrier that would have slapped a set of
shoes on the horse and said horse could have trotted around lame and
in pain?

The rest of us non-hoof gurus are interested in reading the pros
and cons of hoof care and equicasts but I tend to "lose information"
when it is presented in accusatory tones. Hopefully this discussion
can continue productively and without the perfect world ideals but
with some acceptance, even skepticism, that new products can be
tried. Casts are not cement boots....they are a tool that one can
choose to use OR NOT.

Amberlee
www.fivepineranch.com
Please Visit Our Site!