Re: Reply to fivepine ranch - Update on Vista - initial case history Sept 2007

Joan and Dazzle

Hi Edain,

What I *think* I'm seeing is either 1. early cushings or 2. ovarian

I base this thought on 1. Loss of topline. Muscle wasting.2.
Enlarged udder (for many years).

When I put Dazzle on pergolide, the *only* thing I saw that was a
positive change was the udders went down. I kept her on the
pergolide for that very reason. Once on the pergolide, I added the
Jiaogulan, aakg, alc, ala. That restored the muscling.

Dazzle had a huge response to the jiaogulan. Eleanor said that a lot
of what I was seeing with Dazzle was hoof pain. I couldn't
understand why I didn't see what she saw. I kept seeing torn
muscles, connective tissue issues, etc (which I thought were tying
into iron overload and copper deficiency) In retrospect, there was
the torn muscles, etc, but a huge part of Dazzle's being also
included hoof pain.

The pergolide helps bring down the ACTH. Even more importantly, it
is a dopamine agonist and increased dopamine activity reduces
ovarian activity. One of the things that Eleanor was concerned about
with Dazzle was that I was reducing the ovarian activity to the
point of stalling out her cycles, leading to hung up follicles.

But. If this is what it is, the danger of not treating with
pergolide is laminitis. If I were to be asked, I would suggest
pergolide, at least for the fall rise. The ACTH is borderline high
and in light of the other issues, my *real* concern would not be
muscling or topline, but laminitis.

There are a number of horses on the Cushings site that have weird
things going on. I think that polycystic ovary does exist in horses
and that a number of mares with chronic laminitis have that as one
of the *driving* events on moving it forward. The enlarged udder is
not normal and there is no other explanation for it besides hormonal

My suggestions:
1. Continue with the tight balanced diet. This can help minimize the
effects of iron overload. Can minimize the symptoms associated with
copper or zinc deficiencies.
2. Put the horse on pergolide at least for the fall.
3. Add ALC for the muscling issues

We all wish that in tough cases like this that we would have
definitive answers, but sometimes it's just not that way. If this
were Dazzle, the risk of laminitis with these signs and symptoms is
just too great. I'd put her on pergolide.

Joan and Dazzle

--- In EquineCushings@..., "edain_rides" <edain@...>

She had been
through a stressful situation in March (attacked and torn up by
other horses), and had also, unknown to me, been put on a very
pasture (with grazing muzzle, but not very much edible or good
get through, so she probably was not getting enough calories for
awhile). So, my dilemma question, with no symptoms but the
(may be conformational) and enlarged udder (not bred in the last
years since I have had her), which she has had for many, many
and an ACTH of 53 in August and around 52 in May (50 being the
breakpoint), glucose 95 in August and 95 in May; insulin we can't
because it was fasting insulin in May so abnormally low.
Cushings or
IR? I do not want to start her on pergolide if it is not

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