Re: Barbara's questions


Robin <Eclectk1@...>
 

Thanks for joining us, the more input/infor/support we can exchange
the better.>

I agree totally and am VERY happy to have everyones input, and to see
that we have new members: Welcome all!!

<1. Most of you seem to use pergolide. Is it because the cypro
stopped
working?>
My vets have indicated that Pergolide generally works better and for
more horses. They suggested trying cypro first, simply based on cost
(which is now about the same a pergolide I gather, but was MUCH
cheaper back then!). They cautioned me at the time, however, that
the cypro might not work at all, or might lose effectiveness over
time.

Apparently some horses' systems develop a "tolerance" to the cypro
and it slowly becomes less and less effective. BET labs, in this
past week, informed me that sometimes the Cypro quits working BECAUSE
THE HORSE DOESN'T HAVE ENOUGH THYROID HORMONES -- AND THAT
SUPPLEMENTING WITH THYROL-L can sometimes keep the cypro effective
for a longer time period. YOU DO HAVE TO BE CAREFUL TO NOT
OVERSUPPLEMENT, but that can be tested (it requires several samples
over a time period, so you'd need to work with one of the labs that
could tell you how to properly do this...).

Anyhow, before I knew that, I tried cypro for awhile several years
ago. It worked beautifully for about 3 months, and I was able to
drop from 3 scoops of thyrol-l to 1 (symptomatically based, not blood
tested). Then I had to increase the cypro dose, and finally it
seemed to quit working that I could tell. That was after about 6
months total on it. Wish I'd known about the thyroid link to its
effectiveness, I'd've tried increasing the thyrol-l supplement to see
if it would have made the cypro effective again and kept her on it if
it was....

Also, I had heard that pergolide can trigger laminitis in some
cases (don't know if its true but didn't want to
take the chance).
This is one I haven't heard before... Carla, can you recall where you
heard it and how reliable the source might be? None of my vets have
ever mentioned it -- and its certainly something we ALL should know
if its true... Also, I'm considering starting Tina on pergolide and
sure would like to know how closely I need to watch for onset
symptoms and so on....

well until the last three weeks or so. I am wondering if the cyprois
"wearing out". The expiration date is up in July but I'm wondering
if it
degrades faster than the Company says??? Or, is the Cushings
progressing???

Seems like either is possible... also, are you shaking the bottle
like mad? Thinking here that it might just be less concentrated now
than before if it wasn't evenly mixed all along... ALSO NOTE ABOVE
WHAT BET TOLD ME REGARDING THE LINK BETWEEN THYROID LEVELS AND CYPRO
EFFECTIVENESS....

I'll be doing more bloodwork very soon!
Will be curious to hear what you wind up testing for and results...

I am also contemplating adding a
small amount of pergolide.
Can Pergolide and cypro be used at the same time? I was under the
impression that it was always an either or question, that both worked
along the same pathways and you couldn't 'double up' safely... not
sure if that's correct tho....

will be normally warm while other areas will be extremely cold to
the touch.
(would love to hear anyone's comments on this!)
Inability to regulate heat AND cold as well as prior to cushings is a
noted and well known side effect/symptom of Cushings -- you are both
probably right on the money with what you've noted. Its my
understanding that this is a function of all the excess cortisol
their body is producing... As to warm/cold areas on the same horse
at the same time, I'd think that patchy fat and also just the lack of
good thermoregulation might be the answer...

<3. My vet would like to keep her without shoes if possible. My
pasture is flat and fairly rock free and I had her barefoot until
March when I thought I would be taking her out to shows. What is the
consensus about shoes?>

I have to agree with Carla... Shoes if needed, barefoot if not...
totally dependent on the particular horse. I've kept Tina barefoot
until she foundered last fall, now she's in natural balance shoes
without pads (for the last two shoeings, before that she had wedge
pads and a 'fake' frog to distribute pressure on the frog while in
the shoes AND unload the apex of the coffin bone).

<4. I've seen a lot of you mention Thyrol. I'm beginning to wonder if
lowering her dose may have triggered this latest flare up. >
I don't have a lot of experience here but I think you're on to
something.
Robin, What do you think?
Personally, I'm pretty convinced although I don't have any proof. I
can say that many people suspect a tie between low thyroid levels and
laminitis, but its not proven yet. Tina had a single bout of mild
laminitis in her last pregnancy (year before diagnosis) when lush
spring grass came in -- and I was likely feeding her more than really
needed too, since I was overworried about her being in the last
month... That was SIX years ago, no founder/laminitis since... until
the barn manager dropped her thyrol-l supplement from three scoops a
day to ONE without telling me. Two to three weeks later, in 115
degree temps (yes, 115, Las Vegas gets HOT, no puns intended!!! ;o))
a FULL WINTER COAT starts coming in... I question barn manager and
tell her to go back to three scoops over a few days... she took a few
WEEKS instead and presto, Tina founders and rotates 2 degress on one
foot, 4 on the other.... and has founder rings (minor) behind also,
even tho the vet never mentioned founder behind. The timing on the
founder just seems awfully coincidental to me...

<5. Speaking of flare ups-are there any clues to watch for or will
she just be sound one day and lame the next?

I think you just have to always be on the lookout for any changes...
does she seem a little stiff today? does she seem to be avoiding
moving more than normal? Any digital pulse? That sort of thing.
Just watch them like a hawk out of habit, without worrying... then
jump on anything suspicious quick! If you can catch laminitis as its
first starting (before they're really lame), you can go a long way
toward minimizing the severity...

Also, is there any hope of riding her again? She was doing so well
and I think was enjoying being ridden-it gave
her a purpose.
If the prognosis on the founder itself is good, I'd think sure... and
it would be good for her too. I don't recall how much you said she
rotated... but talk to your vet. And there is ALWAYS HOPE, its just
a question of how much hope is reasonable.... some horses recover
amazingly well from seemingly bad founder, others get minor cases and
never seem to get back to normal... I was told that with Tina at 2 &
4 degrees, there was good chance that she'd not only go back to being
barefoot eventually, but be fairly sound...

As far as testing, several people have suggested trying the
Cushings Assay that BET labs offers.

I'm heading this direction myself... and had posted you guys a very
long one with information they'd told me over the phone, so check out
the archived messages if interested...

Ditto on Carla's "Good Luck!" and hope this has helped some...

Robin
Desert Springs Sport Horses
http://www.Sportshorses.homestead.com
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