Date   

Re: New Hay Analysis

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Frances, the two hays seem palatable as the horses passed the tested test in some small samples.

Both hays are nice to look at but are a smidgen dusty so I am thinking some of the iron is topical.  Fingers crossed the retest with shaken sifted samples proves me right.
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: New Hay Analysis

Frances C.
 

Following this thread with interest. I've seen the hayfields in Brentwood and wondered about the quality being produced. Very low lying land next to
Delta, feeling that the soil is waterlogged and sour  salty hay is produced, lacking in oxygen - have no idea if that affects the amount of iron in finished product. Tracy area seems to be a bit drier. I have purchased hay (teff) in Manteca that came from the Sacramento region where it is used as a clean-up crop for tomato fields. Becoming more and more disenchanted with California hay with perhaps the exception of alfalfa grown up in Butte County
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Re: Feedback on trim please -3rd request

hdavis
 


Re: Feedback on trim please -3rd request

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Heather,

In general, things have improved hugely - YAY!

Per the rads, sole depth was good, tip of the frog on the LF was aligned under the edge of the coffin bone so you have a reference point. On the RF, the tip of the frog is ahead of the leading edge of the CB. LF bony alignment was good, so trim along the same angle that the bottom of the foot currently makes with the ground and keep the breakover where it is.

On the RF, heels are too low relative to the height in the front half of the foot, with the bony column slightly broken back. Need to add a bit more heel height on this one. If you compare the profile of the RF with LF, you should be able to see the difference so you can see what you are trying to achieve.

Hinds need to leave a bit more heel height, same as the RF.

Rocker all your heels as they are still somewhat underrun, although that has also improved quite a bit. You can shave the ends of all the bars so they don't extend as far forward as the tips of the frogs.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Emergency Help for Horse with EMS, Trimming

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Robin,

I've added mark-ups to Galeno's album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=259415

Generally, Galeno's feet are just hugely overgrown. As I mentioned before, the soles appear to be fairly flat at this time, so they should be left alone. Considering the amount of overgrown foot that is being left, the frogs are in fairly good shape, so they should not be trimmed at all. The toes need to be brought back quite a bit and the massive wall flaring also needs to be removed. Those are the things to concentrate on during this trim. Because of the amount of flaring, many of the usual landmarks that farriers use to establish trim parameters have been distorted and the trims have been based on those distorted landmarks. Need to re-establish the true parameters. Here are some links to reading material that explains many of the concepts in more depth:

https://www.hoofrehab.com/Breakover.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsesSole.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/WhiteLineDisease.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/WallCracks.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/TheBars.htm

https://www.hoofrehab.com/DistalDescent.htm

https://www.hoofrehab.com/Coronet.html

LF dorsal: The green lines follow the angle of the new, better attached growth coming in under the coronary band to the ground. The blue areas are the large wall flares that need to be removed in the lower 1/3 of the hoof capsule so that the hoof at ground level is in alignment with the new, better attached growth from above. Lateral wall is worse than the medial one.

LF lateral: Green line is a visual marker, not a trim line at this time. It again follows the new, better attached growth coming in under the coronary band. Everything outside of the green line is laminar wedge material - hoof wall that has pulled away from its strong attachment to the coffin bone and is being held in place by haphazard scar-like material that is desperately trying to somehow hold the disintegrating hoof capsule together. What is being called "white line disease" is this material disintegrating as it finally can no longer function due to the excess amount of hoof wall material being left in place. Blue area is the excess toe length that needs to be removed to get the breakover back to where the bony column dictates it should be. Orange line shows where the heels should be but they are quite underrun and much further forward than this. That won't be able to be fixed entirely at this time unless there is enough sole depth to allow for lowering the heel height. Because the soles are so flat,it is unlikely there is enough material to work with right now.

LF sole: Solid blue line is where the outer perimeter of the hoof should be. All of the blue hashes areas need to be removed (correspond to the blue in the lateral and dorsal views), then the walls should be beveled so they remain out of ground contact so they aren't weight bearing. Because the soles have run forward along with the toes, the real white line has been buried under this crumbling material. The deep crack in the toe should be entirely gone if the toe gets backed up appropriately. Yellow hashed areas are the leading edges of the bars, which can be lightly cleaned up as they appear to be flaking off. Don't want to get excessively aggressive with the bars as they are doing double duty right now to compensate for the lack of support the flared/damaged walls cannot provide. Orange squares are where the heel buttresses should be located once the flaring heels get moved inward. Leave the soles and frogs alone but do remove all the ragged pieces of periople around the heels.

RF dorsal: Significant flaring all the way around. Blue areas are the flares that need to be removed, then bevel the walls under to keep them out of weight bearing until they have grown out the damaged material.

RF lateral: Same discussion as LF.

RF sole: Same general discussion as the LF. Note that the bars are even more obviously flared out. Again, work just the leading edges to start to control them but don't remove too much.

LH dorsal: Lateral wall flare is worse than the medial one.

LH lateral: Back the toe up significantly (blue area).

LH sole: Again, leave the sole and frogs alone. Focus on tightening the entire perimeter of the hoof capsule significantly.

RH dorsal: Same general idea as the other three feet, although it appears to be the most upright and least flared of the four feet.

RH lateral: Again, backing the toe (blue area) is the focus.

RH sole: Same idea as LH.

Trim cycle should be no more than 3-4 weeks the next round, then you may be able to stretch out to 5 weeks after that. Boots and pads should be used to provide comfort. Make sure that any boots he wears have a large bevel added to the treads at both the toes and heels as NO boot has enough of one right out of the box. He may find the Soft Rides more comfortable after he is trimmed if you cut the frog support off and make them a flat pad rather than a wedge.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Dead animal in feed bag

Bonnie
 

Thank you Nancy. My vet has been consulting other practices and is hoping to have info on antitoxin from a compounding supplier. I thought about activated charcoal but find it should be administered with a naso-gastric tube so that is not possible for us. I live in a fairly remote place and getting hold of anything may take a couple of days. Meanwhile Lad is apparently normal. Watching closely.
--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 


Feedback on trim please -3rd request

hdavis
 

Hello,

I realize Lavinia is overloaded but I sent a request for feedback on my trim back in December shortly after I posted my X-rays as I want to know if I need to tweak anything in my trims now that we have actual xrays.

It is getting quite past the point of the xrays and uploaded pics and am hoping I can get feedback sooner than later.  I don’t think I need markups just some feedback if we are on track and continue on or anything we need to fine tune. Hate to be a bug but it’s going to be close to a month since the pics and I really would like feedback please.  
Thanks!

Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819 


Storm

Case History


 




Re: Monster - 5-year-old Morab gelding

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

You are very organized, Trisha!

I was wondering if your insulin was done fasted?   It is extremely low for a laminitic horse, but that could be because your dietary changes brought it down significantly.  I'd be very surprised if that's not a fasted number though given his breeding and the recent laminitis.  If fasted, please clarify in your Case History.

I believe you've stopped the Purina Equilibrium Optimal?  If you have, could you clarify that in your Case History next time you update it?  If you have not stopped it, I would, the ESC+starch are a little too high for comfort...especially the starch as this analysis shows it is over 4%:
https://madbarn.com/feeds/equilibrium-optimal-purina/
It us also unnecessarily high in iron, which defeats the purpose of the added copper and zinc in it, unfortunately.

You will also want to find another way to add more protein because your grass hay is extremely low in it.  If he's going to be on this hay long-term it would be well worth having someone design a diet that has enough protein (and ensures the Amino Trace+ is adequate for minerals) but is still safe for an EMS horse.  We do have a list of trained diet balancers in our files. 

For his ideal weight, aim for a BCS of 4.5...just enough to see the ribs slightly and very easily feel them.  And once he's sound, heavy exercise will be very important for lowering his insulin, especially as he gets older.

You can also shorten the toes yourself with a rasp, in between farrier visits.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Dr. Kellon / what’s the max of DC I can give?

Bobbie Day
 

Thanks Sherry
I actually sent my hubby to the store for the voltaren and put some on her tonight. Ordered the knee support, I had actually searched for them before but didn’t find them.
I will look into a cheaper version however of the voltaren ( and put the SNM under Dr.K).
I really appreciate everyone’s suggestions, this helps a lot. I really don’t know how I would have gotten through this journey without all of you !


--
Bobbie and Desi
NRC Plus March 2020
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: Dr. Kellon / what’s the max of DC I can give?

Bobbie Day
 

Nancy
I was strictly referring to the DC, PQ has helped her all these years but I supplement DC in addition to.


--
Bobbie and Desi
NRC Plus March 2020
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: Do PPID horses get constipated or is this age related gut issues or sand colic?

Stepht
 

Wow!  Thank. you, Cass for all of this information!  As per your suggestion, I did add 2 oz of loose salt in divided doses and will continue that.  She happily ate it, which is sometimes an issue.  I am ordering the Uckele psyllium and Absorb-All as soon as I am done typing this!  Your note reminded me I do need to check the last deworm and to have the vet check her teeth.  She is probably due for both.

Does anyone have info on an ongoing dose of psyllium after the initial 7 day course?

Thank you again!  I am grateful for this group and the help I receive.  I tell all my PPID horse owning friends about it!

--
Stephanie Thomson August 2, 2016

 

Liberty, Missouri

Katie Case History

Katie Photo Album  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6072

Katie Lab Values Folder  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Stephanie%20and%20Katie 


Re: Beet Pulp Boycott

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Anne,

How much hay (by weight) is Nemo eating?  Assuming his ideal weight is the same as his current he should be eating 20lbs a day and you only have him listed as eating 10lbs in his case history.




Re: Invokana and Vinnie update

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Day 12, we have officially stopped all rx pain meds. We are now on cbd and joint hemp with devils claw only!! Whoo hooo and I think Vinnie now may need a calming supplement for when we start walking🤣🤣🤣
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Monster - 5-year-old Morab gelding

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Trisha,

An ideal weight of 430kg would be a total of 8.6kg of feed (hay and concentrates) per day so you need to decrease his hay intake further, especially if he's eating 1kg of beet pulp per day.  Are you still feeding the Purina Equilibrium?  If so, you need to take that amount of feed into account as well

The photos you posted confirmed his toes are still too long.




Re: Dr. Kellon / what’s the max of DC I can give?

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Bobbie,





Re: Recovery From 7 Months of Bute

 

Anne, I’m confused.  The emergency diet consists of soaked/rinsed hay, plus the salt, vit E and flax oil.  Unless I’m misreading, in another thread you mention feeding 2 leaves of unsoaked hay.  Is a leaf like a blade of grass or is it what I might call a flake (but is more like a stack)?  Weight is important.

Abler (unable to open their site atm) also makes an omeprazole product but omeprazole seems to be pricey, no matter who formulates it.  Gathering up 3-4 doses and giving them on consecutive days would allow you to see if it helps with his appetite.  If not, there’s no use pursuing it.  If it does, there may be some other things to try.  I gave my guy Finish Line U-7, on his previous owner’s recommendation.  I have no idea whether it made a difference as I made other changes as well although I didn’t dare stop.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: New Hay Analysis

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Correction, the blue/orange twine is from Tracy and the orange twine is Brentwood.

It doesn't surprise me because we have a lot of iron in the water out here.  But I have to feed something...my options are quite limited. 

I have tested about 7 different hay samples  and of the 7, 5 had high iron.  The remaining 2 were also high in eac+starch.  I have spent about 600 bucks in hay sampling soooo.... that bites into the hay budget quite a bit...
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: New Hay Analysis

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 


Re: New Hay Analysis

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 


Re: New Hay Analysis

 

Hi, Nancy. 
I'm sorry to confirm that both hays have exceedingly high iron. I would not feed either hay to my horses based on the iron content.  

Did you ask where the hay was grown? It's good to know for your own education and as a check on the seller -- checking if they have at least a minimal notion of what they are selling.

Can you cast your net wider, so that you can find a supplier with hay from a different region where iron is not so high? Mid-winter is a tough season for hay shopping. 

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos

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