Date   

Re: Problems with Hind End - Need some help

Saucier Kathy
 

Julie, you are right to question the feet and look at diet whenever something changes in your horse's movement, like the weight shift.
Just an example, with Magic we never had warmth in the hooves or pulses except when he had the one really severe case. And that time his laying down and pain in his eyes were plenty to tell us. So if you want to catch them early and reverse it before it gets bad, the best thing is to KNOW YOUR HORSE. If you know how they should move, act or look when normal then keep in tune with them, the best thing for them is to act as soon as anything is slightly off. When they are IR or Cushing's it is better to be over cautious than assume otherwise. And don't let anyone tell me it is nothing or say oh he is just having an off day.

On looking back over the past we have seen patterns in his movement. Heavy-on-the-forehand was always part of it. It is known that if they hurt in the front feet, they put more weight onto their backends. I guess the strain on the back end after shifting so much gets more sore than the feet when it is a mild case. Then they are avoiding the pains and strains in the back end and get heavy on the front.
So we think there is something else going on instead of sore front feet.

Experts have any input on this? Does that scenario sound right about why they may ride heavy on the forehand in mild foot soreness situations?

When gait changes, I now think feet first and look at the diet.
Kathy, Magic and Grayson


Re: Test Results for Foxy

Sandra Su
 

Posted by: "Barbara" <mailto:b.dayton@...?Subject=
Re%3ATest%20Results%20for%20Foxy> b.dayton@...
<http://profiles.yahoo.com/almstthr> almstthr

Fri Nov 2, 2007 7:21 am (PST)

I finally recieved a copy of Foxys test results. I am confused about
the results. I tried comparing the results to others posted but her
numbers are so much different. Could someone please tell me what
they mean?

Lab Used: IDEXX Laboratories

Pre Dexamethasone Result 3.0 Reference Range 1-3 ug/dL Flag (blank)
Post Dexamethasone Result 1.7 Reference Range 1-3 ug/dL Flag H
Correction on reference range for

Post Dexamethasone Result 1.7 Reference Range <1 ug/dL Flag H

Insulin Result 15 Ref Range 29-179 pmol/L Flag L
Glucose Result 4.3 Ref Range 4.2-6.4 mmol/L Flag (blank)
Insulin:Glucose Ratio Result 3
T4 Result 1.4 Ref Range 0.9-2.8 ug/dL Flag (blank)
Barbara,
It looks like everything's within the normal ranges except
for insulin being low. You compare your horse's results with the
normal ranges. I'm bad at math, so I won't calculate your G:I ratio
for you, but here are Mandy's instructions from another message:

You divide Glucose by Insulin. The units are important. IF your glucose is
mg/dL and your insulin is uIU/L you leave the numbers as they are. IF your
glucose is in mmoL/L you multiply by 18 first. If your insulin is in pmol/L
you divide by 7.1 first ~ then "I" into "G". There is a file on how to do
this! but I have forgotten the name. Keep scrolling down...you'll see it.
Anything <4.5 is considered IR. 4.5 - 10 is considered compensated IR and
10> is good.

This will tell you if your horse is IR and how severe it is.
I'm not familiar w/ the dexamethasone tests, since we usually
have the ACTH test done, but it looks like it's in the normal range,
so your horse probably doesn't have Cushing's. The numbers are at the
high end, but this is the time of the seasonal rise, which might
account for that.
I hope others will confirm this or correct me.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...


Re: Hay analysis

Sandra Su
 

Posted by: "Janet Gerl"
<mailto:jgerl@...?Subject=
Re%3A%20Hay%20analysis> jgerl@...
<http://profiles.yahoo.com/janetgerl> janetgerl

Fri Nov 2, 2007 7:06 am (PST)
Sandy . . . I'm pretty new here, so in light of that, let me just
say I can't imagine mixing your own supplements ingredient by
ingredient.
Lots of us do. I do.

Surely you are purchasing some pre-packaged supplements to make up
your entire mix to match your hay.
I purchase prepackaged supplements that aren't mixed, but the
selenium supplement does have vit. E in it, since I can't find one
w/o. Still, I add the gel caps because I've heard that E in powdered
form isn't very effective. Also, the biotin supplement Dr. K
recommended is some sort of mix. But the rest is pretty much single
ingredients.
It is a pain to mix up the stuff every few days, and at the
beginning, I griped about it. But getting HorseTech or Uckele would
cost more, so I do it. Also, now I have all these stray packages of
supplements that'd be wasted if I got a custom mix.
I think a lot of other people here do the same. They balance
the stuff in their hay to what they add to the supplements so the
diet is as totally balanced as possible. Weird, huh, the lengths
we'll go to?
For an example, here's what Dr. K recommended I add, based on
my hay test:
For 20 to 22 lbs of hay:

Magnesium 1 tbsp as you have been doing is just right
Copper 110 mg/day from Poly Copper (= 880 mg of Poly Cu by weight)
Zinc 400 mg/day from Poly Zinc ( = 1820 mg of Poly Zinc by weight)
Pyridoxine 100 mg (use human, can crush in a coffee grinder)
Folic acid 10 mg (use human)
Biotin 1/2 oz of Su-Per Biotin from here:
<http://www.buygpdirect.com/gpefeed.htm>http://www.buygpdirect.com/gpefeed.htm
Selenium 3 mg from E-Se powder at:
http://www.uenutrition.com/productlist_20.html#5
Iodine from 3 tablespoons of iodized salt
Vitamin E (in addition to what's in the E-Se powder) 2000 IU from
Uckele Liquid E-50 or human soft gelcaps, or add 2 oz/day of CocoSoya
or Olive Oil and just use an addition 1000 IU/day
Ground stabilized flax, or freshly ground flax seed, 4 oz/day.

So I'm guessing that Dr. Kellon looked at my hay results and the
PDFs I sent her of my supplement labels and concluded that I'm
within the safe ranges and all is well.
The amounts may be safe but not balanced, though. I don't
know. But I do know that generally, prepackaged, premixed supplements
won't balance to your hay. If yours do, you
're extremely lucky.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...


why the further testing?

missouribaileys <baileybunch@...>
 

Beauty's case history can be found at:
http://www.sportshorses.com/cases/missouribaileys.Beauty.htm

Okay. I called our horse vet today to find out about further testing.
A little discouraging, a little over-simplified. Which leads me to
the "why" of further testing?

From my converstaion with him, there was no need for further testing,
no need to know the resluts of the ACTH, insulin/gluclose and no reason
at all for a thyroid panel. He basically said that no matter what the
results, she's positive for Cushings and should be dry-lotted, fed only
grass hay and minerals (any horse mineral would suffice). And
basically that was it! Rather simplistic. Very affordable.

I've read and printed out much of the materials offered on this site
and re-read and honestly, my head is just swimming. I had a beautiful,
useful pony two weeks ago and now I have a stressed out, unmangable,
sick pony who needs more than I can afford! All this because we were
trying to sell her to someone who could use her. Okay. Pass me the
chocolate, I'll be fine.

So, Beauty had the Dexamethazone Suppression test which led to her
diagnosis. The vet says this is THE ONE to diagnose Cushings. What
will the ACTH tell me?

What is my goal here in all this? To keep her from foundering? We
manage all of our horses with this in mind. What are my other
objectives? I'm just getting confused over the whole information
overload and the vet's obvious disagreement.

Thanks for the help!
Susie in MO


Re: Jiaogulan - silly question

Sandra Su
 

Posted by: "Deb Platt" <mailto:da_platt@...?Subject=
Re%3A%20Jiaogulan%20-%20silly%20question> da_platt@...
<http://profiles.yahoo.com/da_platt> da_platt

Fri Nov 2, 2007 5:56 am (PST)

The mare is out in the dry lot and we play a game - I scratch and
massage her - then I leave she follows - if she wants to. Then I
stop and massage her some more. Not a lot, but our regular vet
encourages her to get out and move some. Our other vet that does her
accupunture feels she is not very lame - but we have had this mare
for 10 years and know when she is even slightly off.
You know, this is a wonderful way to give a lame horse a bit
of exercise! I think it's wonderful that you take the time with her
to give her loving attention and incorporate a bit of voluntary
movement into it.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...


Re: new to the group!!

Deborah Gordon <debbggordon@...>
 

I very successfully feed my elderly gelding Triple Crown Low Starch feed. It's a rice bran mixture that is very tasty. I have to put him in a stall to feed him or my mare will steel it. That and supplementing with prenatal vitamins should really help her keep her weight on. Also, I limit treats to parsley and celery and make sure he gets very dry grass hay.

Good luck

Renita Jacobs <renitajacobs@...> wrote:
I just found out today that my Saddlebred mare is 3 1/2 months
pregnant. Her previous owner (who is also a member) thinks she might
be insulin resistant. She was a very "easy keeper" when she owned
her. After she came back from the breeder my mare was very skinny and
her mane and tail had lost a lot of hair. I am trying to give her the
best nutritional advantage I can. My vet is not the best source of
nutritional information so I am seeking knowledge on my own from those
who are on the cutting edge of equine nutrition. I have been advised
to get my hay analyzed for mineral content but I am not sure of the
best place to have that done. Is there a lab that does this detailed
hay analysis? Once I know this information I would like to know what
supplements are recommended...assuming my mare has IR tendancies.






Debb Gordon
debbggordon@...


climbing glucose

laviniamfiscaletti <dnlf@...>
 

Hi all, It's been a while since I've been on list so don't know if this
has been discussed. Nappi, my younger boy who was diagnosed as
IR,Cushings last fall (case history under Napoleon), is on IR diet with
minerals by Dr. K, good trim, etc. His bloods have shown a slight
increase in glucose values each time we've tested. The values are all
within norms and insulin and ACTH have been brought down to within
normal values so I'm concerned. Any idea what might be fueling this?
Should I even be
concerned?
Lavinia, Nappi and
George


new to the group!!

Renita Jacobs
 

I just found out today that my Saddlebred mare is 3 1/2 months
pregnant. Her previous owner (who is also a member) thinks she might
be insulin resistant. She was a very "easy keeper" when she owned
her. After she came back from the breeder my mare was very skinny and
her mane and tail had lost a lot of hair. I am trying to give her the
best nutritional advantage I can. My vet is not the best source of
nutritional information so I am seeking knowledge on my own from those
who are on the cutting edge of equine nutrition. I have been advised
to get my hay analyzed for mineral content but I am not sure of the
best place to have that done. Is there a lab that does this detailed
hay analysis? Once I know this information I would like to know what
supplements are recommended...assuming my mare has IR tendancies.


Buckeye Senior formula change

n rand <nantomluna@...>
 

I just heard that Mars has changed the formula of two of the Buckeye Senior products...the expensive one with glucosamine and the pelleted one by adding corn. I looked on the website and lo and behold both products now contain corn. The texturized (original) one does not.

This is a disappointing development.

Nan Rand
Thomas
IL

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Re: Fire Victim

kathrynandsofie
 

Hi I'm in Oregon,



I have some pony things laying around plus horse bits and pieces.



Let me know



Kathryn

Tipperary Farm


Re: Chantilly - x rays - bad news - Dr. Kellon

rita@...
 

Karen,

Sounds like your weather is a lot like Indiana's too (as of late
anyway!). I know my Cushing's girl has been doing ok, with the
exception of a couple abscesses and her sole is still healing on her
toes from them. That makes her sore walking unless I keep her in her
Sabre Sneakers. So, she's staying in her sneakers. I also have been
putting her canvas/felt blanket on in the evenings. It's dipped into
teh 30's lately here and it seems she is not stiff in the mornings if I
have her blanketed.
I'm checking her (and her IR daughter) crests, and it does seem like
they have a bit more of one (only in a small part though) and I'm not
sure if that's just from what little they can snarf through the tiny
holes in the muzzles. I've sectioned off a small part of my front
pasture that has very little stubble in it, but it is the DRIEST lot
right now. Both are booted and the not-so-dry-dry lot just isn't
productive to healing abscessed feet in boots.

I'm glad you aren't so rattled today! I've never been one to baby my
horses (blankets, no way!) but now, I do and it makes the ones who need
it happy and keeps them healthier. I don't need her gaining weight, and
using her calories to keep warm will maybe make her too thin... so it
makes sense to put a blanket on her!

Maybe adding a sheet/blanket at the cold (under 40 degrees is my limit)
nights will help her not 'crash' as you've heard others in your area
doing on controlled diets.

I'd say as long as she gets to choose to go in and out, it shouldn't
hurt, but see what the others advise (I'm not what I would say and
'expert', I am suffering with this as well!!!)
Good Luck
Rita
Indiana


Mag Ox and Cocosoya

Sue <blwnkljmus@...>
 

I have two quick questions.

The Mag Ox that I ordered from Uckele is a very fine white powder, but
the 50lb bag I bought from the feed store is more granular and a grey
color (same 56%). Is there any real difference in these as far as
feeding?

Also, is there any additional benefit to feeding Cocosoya as opposed to
plain soybean oil (which is about half the price)?

Thanks!

Sue and Kramer


Re: Jioagulan and Isoxuprene

Deborah Gordon <debbggordon@...>
 

I can give you a recommendation for grain for your Cushings horse. Triple Crown Low Starch. I give a scoop to my 28 yr. old Morgan Gelding twice a day, morning and evening. It brought his weight up, and he looks and acts like a 6 yr old again. My vet is amazed. Even his coat lost it curls and he shed out beautifully during the spring and early summer. He is also given very dry grass hay. His treats are parsley and celery instead of the apple and carrots I give my other horses.

Several of the local boarders also use this grain (actually a rice bran) on their older horses successfully.

Kelly Hill <firegoldh@...> wrote:
Hello everyone! I am new and originally came here in
Oct. due to my suspected Cushings 22yr old gelding
Squirt but I have found so many things here that I
think can help my other horses that my head is
spinning. (I have Squirt's blood work (he is Cushings)
and the hay is off being tested. He is on the
emergency diet and Pergoglide is on order. I will
update his information soon.)

I am actually inquiring about my 19 yr old Poppin. He
came to me w/ a navicular cyst in one hoof and has
been on 1/2-1gm bute daily for at least 2.5 years.
(EGADS!) I tried devil's claw, yucca, etc and have not
noticed a difference. He has been struggling w/ on and
off bouts of White Line disease for the past year. We
get it under control and then it flares again. I did
xrays and his heel was sinking in his "good foot". He
has sensitive skin (everything must be padded), does
not like to be touched (brushing is horse abuse) and
now he is blowing abcesses in both front feet. He also
tends to get a fungussy/rain rot type affliction on
his body that seems to coincide w/ the white line
flare ups. My farrier and I agree that there might be
some immune system issues but my vet doesn't think so.
His coat is normal. Should this horse have a blood
test?

I have got to get this horse off bute but he stands w/
both front feet out. The last trim we had abcesses but
saw healthy white line tissue. He is on Isoxsuprene
for the cyst. After reading this list I think I should
try Jioagulan and APF and get off the bute and get him
on the BP/balanced diet. My last question is can he be
on Isoxsuprene and Jioagulan at the same time?? Any
other recommendations?

Sorry this is so long but thanks to you all I have
hope for my boys!

Kelly and Squirt (Poppin, too)
Kentucky

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Debb Gordon
debbggordon@...


Re: Beet pulp and supplements?

 

do any of you have experience feeding beet pulp in conjunction w/
bermuda hay... how does that effect the supplements? I've been using
the Arizona Regional Mix (which is tailered to our Az bermuda hay) but
wondered if I'm messing up the balance w/ a relatively high percentage
of beet pulp (about 40%).
The reason I've increased the BP ratio is that it seems to keep my
older gelding's tummy happy.
Hi Krista ~
With that much beet pulp, you should probably get both your beet pulp
and hay analyzed. I presume you're feeding 40% beet pulp according to
dry weight (before soaking) - so it might be something like 6lbs beet
pulp/10lbs hay? It's going to change the calcium/phosphorus balance and
probably increase the need for copper.
While I like (and use) the AZ Regional Mix, it won't "balance" a high
iron hay.
You might also want to see if you can get TC Safe Starch forage in your
area - its balanced to itself and, if it agrees with him, could be a
good option.

Patti K
Vail AZ


Re: Dr. Kellon and Nutritional Experts

cjspackman
 

You might try cornucrescine made by Carr & Day & Martin. Its a product from
the UK sold by several retailers - google it. We used it all the time when
I was a kid. You massage it into the coronet band and it increases hoof
growth. When a previous horse of mine foundered the vet was amazed at the
speed the hoof re-grew and the quality. It can also be used on areas where
hair has been rubbed off like elbows and hocks. It causes the hair to
regrow and to grow back in the correct color rather than white. Possibly
useful for the horses who are off their feet and may be getting "bed
sores". Also a little goes a very long way!!

Here is a synopsis from a retailer
* Cornucrescine* promotes and accelerates healthy horn growth and aids
re-structuring of the hoof when used regularly. Cornucrescine also aids
re-growth of hair on scars and rubbed areas. Lasts forever, AMAZING.

- Unique formulation that promotes and accelerates healthy hoof
growth
- Cornucrescine maintains optimum hoof condition and aids
re-structuring of the hoof
- Cornucrescine also aids re-growth of hair
- Apply Cornucrescine regularly by hand, rubbing in well around the
coronet band. Results will be visible in 4-6 weeks

Clair


Re: Problems with Hind End - Need some help

mchambers333@...
 

carol,
where do you live ? I live in southern chester county, PA and I
had a TWH and all the vets i used did not know how the walker's locomotion
worked. ( i live in TB, quarter horse country) I had 6 vets look at him. He
ended up having lyme's disease and EPM.
Just wanted to throw that at you because his hind end issues could be
something totally different. My TWH foundered also and they blamed it on that.

Michelle



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


Re: Chantilly - x rays - bad news - Dr. Kellon

Karen <karen@...>
 

This morning I am not so rattled. The farrier came and took her toes
back and lowered her heels. He elevated her feet one at a time on a
board so she did not have to stand on one foot. We have padded her
with a toe relief. I would like to give her an area that connects to
her stall that is another 10 x 10 space. This way she can move to
the outside to look around. Is this a good idea. The footing is pea
gravel and shaving and it is level.

Tilly's other vet that does accupuncture and chinese medicine called
this morning to see how she is. She told me she has about four or
five other horses that have crashed this fall. All but one of them
is very controlled with diet. She said she is not sure what is
causing this, but wonders if our weather which has been very warm in
the day and very cold 20 to 25 at night has something to do with it.

Thanks and waiting for Dr. Kellon to Help.

Karen, Chantilly and Tommi--- In
EquineCushings@..., "Karen" <karen@...> wrote:


Dr. Kellon,
I have e-mailed the x rays from August this year and the ones I had
done today to you. I am having trouble posting them to the photo
section.


Jioagulan and Isoxuprene

Kelly Hill
 

Hello everyone! I am new and originally came here in
Oct. due to my suspected Cushings 22yr old gelding
Squirt but I have found so many things here that I
think can help my other horses that my head is
spinning. (I have Squirt's blood work (he is Cushings)
and the hay is off being tested. He is on the
emergency diet and Pergoglide is on order. I will
update his information soon.)

I am actually inquiring about my 19 yr old Poppin. He
came to me w/ a navicular cyst in one hoof and has
been on 1/2-1gm bute daily for at least 2.5 years.
(EGADS!) I tried devil's claw, yucca, etc and have not
noticed a difference. He has been struggling w/ on and
off bouts of White Line disease for the past year. We
get it under control and then it flares again. I did
xrays and his heel was sinking in his "good foot". He
has sensitive skin (everything must be padded), does
not like to be touched (brushing is horse abuse) and
now he is blowing abcesses in both front feet. He also
tends to get a fungussy/rain rot type affliction on
his body that seems to coincide w/ the white line
flare ups. My farrier and I agree that there might be
some immune system issues but my vet doesn't think so.
His coat is normal. Should this horse have a blood
test?

I have got to get this horse off bute but he stands w/
both front feet out. The last trim we had abcesses but
saw healthy white line tissue. He is on Isoxsuprene
for the cyst. After reading this list I think I should
try Jioagulan and APF and get off the bute and get him
on the BP/balanced diet. My last question is can he be
on Isoxsuprene and Jioagulan at the same time?? Any
other recommendations?

Sorry this is so long but thanks to you all I have
hope for my boys!

Kelly and Squirt (Poppin, too)
Kentucky

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Re: Fire Victim

amyt001 <aet001@...>
 

I'm in PA but I might have extra general horse stuff, please let us
know if you need anything. I can mail things to you, depending on
sizes...
Amy & Misty in PA
(& Herbie & Dylan)

--- In EquineCushings@..., SpotsNStripesRch@... wrote:

Hi:? This is Nancy Nunke with Spots 'N Stripes Ranch, in Ramona,
CA...I've lost my ranch in the fire and I don't have anything with my
passwords or other internet 'stuff', so please pass this on to
someone who could have my Cushings emails come to me in a single
email instead of individual emails...they are taking up all my
available email space and I can only get to my emails on a friend's
computer a couple of times a week, and important emails are being
bounced back because my email box is full...so please, please,
someone change my individual Cushings emails to a single email on
yahoo....thank you, thank you, thank you...

Nancy Nunke
635 Old Julian Highway
Ramona, CA 92065

760-898-3927

http://www.spotsnstripes.com



-----Original Message-----


Is there a file with Chaste Tree Berry information? I don't see one...

kksmalley
 

Hello All,

I may just be missing it but I was looking for a file with information
on chaste tree berries. I've been searching the messages and am trying
to piece together the bits and pieces of info I'm finding but wanted
to make sure I'm not missing important data in a specific place.

I think I recently read it may be detrimental to the horse in some
cases and since I have my mare on it I'm worried about if I really
should and if so, what the right dose would be.

She's about a 1000 lbs and I'm giving a heaping teaspoon twice a day.

Thanks you!

Kris & Scarlet

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