Date   

Re: light therapy

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "omare12365" <omare12365@...>
wrote:

Has there been any studies done on light therpy for cushings
horses?

No formal studies - i.e., group with extended light versus a group
without. Some members have done it (? still are), but always with
other changes as well so we can't really tell what the effect of only
the lighting is.

Eleanor


Minerals and flax

jvoutdoorz <jvining@...>
 

I am truely almost there now. Next question. If I have my minerals
custom mixed, can I/should I have the flax and vitamin E put in with it?

FYI, Copper is feeling so well that he busted the top rail off his
gate and jumped 2 1/2 feet over the rest of the gate to join the other
two horses in the pasture yesterday. It has been a tense 24 hours to
see if there were any side effects from the up to an hour he spent in
the field. Either he just jumped before I pulled in, or the small
amount of grazing didn't affect him. He was happily trotting about
today. WHEW!! He now has hot wire around the dry lot:)

Jodie


Thanks fr Alabama!

Shannon Andress <andresh@...>
 

Wow Melanie... You are "dead on"... about EVERY single thing you said -
from the voracious appetite, to the unusual thirst, to the eye drainage
- these all fit Coco to a "T". I always noticed these things, but
everyone (including my vet) blow me off and say I'm making too much of
nothing.

And, by comparison Coco sweats more than my other horses. And, it
smells worse (I can pick out Coco's saddleblanket with my eyes
closed.... Peeeee-uuuuuu!). Quite frankly I love every smell related to
horses (even manure) with two exceptions: a thrushy foot, and Coco's
saddleblanket, haha! Is that something any of you have experienced
(y'all might not have noticed anything unless you have several other
"normal" horses to compare it to)?

So... I am starting to think that maybe the Pergolide I just started
giving him will not help possible IR?

Are y'all saying that IR is a separate and different condition from
Cushings? Or, is it part-and-parcel with Cushings?

Thanks to you and Mandy for your help and encouragement... God bless...
Shan

-----Original Message-----
From: "emjewelry" <emjewelry@...>
To: Andress, Shannon <andresh@...>

Sent: 11/9/2007 9:37:37 PM
Subject: New member from Alabama!

WELCOME!!!!!!

In several pics Coco does look to be IR - I am going simply by the
cresty
neck, a bit on the pudgy side and also orbital swelling over the eyes.

DIET is what controls IR - remove grains (safechoice is NOT safe - it is

22-27% NSC - it may be lower starch (like 16% - but they never tell you
the
sugar numbers!)

Very few horses need any grains - but we are conditioned to feed it -
they
like it so well!!!!

NO treats, no grains, no grazing.

If he is NOT lame - exercise is a wonderful tool to control this.

Here are some other symptoms:

voracious appetite
cresty neck
laminitis
easy keeper
patchy fat
orbital eye fat
increased thirst/urination
eye drainage

Blood work is essential - simple blood draws for insulin, glucose and
if
over 15 yrs old draw an endogenous acth also. These don't have to cost
an
arm and a leg - ask first. I use MSU - Lansing and the I/G testing is
$16
and the ACTH is only $21. The overnight shipping will cost for them
they
do. Fasting not necessary - but no grain for 4 hours prior - hay and
water
only.

Best of luck - this pony looks like he is worth his weight in gold.

Melanie
(in ND with a 21 yr old IR Morgan)&#92;


ps - ponies and morgans are the most likely types to become IR - this is
a
man-made condition - no meds for this one!
New member from Alabama!
Posted by: "Shannon Andress" andresh@... redhairedwitch1
Fri Nov 9, 2007 3:03 pm (PST)
Hi! I am so glad to find this group, a friend in Alabama Trail Riders
directed me here! I am looking forward to learning all I can to
increase Coco's quality of life and health!!! We love Coco and he's
priceless to us. He is described as "a giant beanie baby" 'cause he's
so darn cute and sweet! If I was smart enough to teach him tricks he
could be a circus pony! He will fetch his bucket and halter when I ask
him to, he steals rubber food bowls of food away from the other
horses... when he runs away with them in his teeth, he doesnt spill a
drop of grain (but that's a BIG NO-NO, I always have to go retreive it
from him, all he gets is a little Nutrena Safechoice for now)! But I
feel so sorry for him when all the "big horses" are chowing down on
their sweet feed and grain, and poor little Coco is just looking at
them so longingly... :-(

I tell him "it's for your own good, Buddy! Hey, thanks again for this
great resource! Shannon in Montgomery AL

P.S. - Please check out Coco's pics! I posted them to this Group's
PHOTOS... I think I named the album "Coco and Sam in Montgomery AL"
http://pets.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/photos/browse/7c75


Re: Feeding Study

PCfarm <pecciefarm@...>
 

Eleanor: They measured prolactin!! Get 'em to tell you how, pretty please.

Linda in NC


Re: New member from Alabama!

Shannon Andress <andresh@...>
 

Mandy,
Thanks, thanks!!! Well I questioned ONLY 1/2 flake of hay per day.... I
work for the University Extension System I believe our pubs say a horse
has to have mimimum 3 percent of his body weight per day in roughage to
prevent colic... 1/2 flake doesn't come close to 3 percent of Coco's
bodyweight!!! So, I was worried. I did turn him out to the pineywoods
lot with very little grass -- I mean almost NO grass -- but I can put
him in the 1/2 ac. drylot tonite.

AND should mention... that I just rescued a beautiful palomino gaited
pony (we named him Trigger) who was abandoned and literally
grassfoundering in an alfalfa field TO DEATH. He's a sweetie, but sadly
his soles are COMPLETELY on the ground. He has NO arch or concavity
atall to his soles... I have never seen anything like it! His feet look
horrible, awful. And on the left front foot, I swear it looks like the
coffin bone is wearing thru the sole... I don't know what to do with
this horse, but I couldn't bear for the property owner to shoot him in
the head just because he didn't want the pony... Such a shame he
Trigger is only about 8 y.o. too... Trigger abcessed right after I
picked him up, and it blew out the other day at the coronet band... The
vet insists that Trigger does NOT have Cushings -- never mentioned IR
-- but I wonder... I did ride him and he was pretty well-behaved but I
know now that his foot was abcessing at the time and I didn't even know
it. :-(

SO.... Truth be known I'm actually dealing with TWO recovering
foundering ponies... When it rains it pours :-). One was mine, one was
a rescue... I sure didn't ask for this, I swear. I hope my my other 3
guys stay healthy and sound...

Trigger will go into the drylot with Coco... What else should I do!?!?
God bless, Shan in Bama

-----Original Message-----
From: "Mandy Woods" <bittersweetfarm@...>
To: Andress, Shannon <andresh@...>

Sent: 11/9/2007 8:25:19 PM
Subject: Re: [EquineCushings] New member from Alabama!

Shan
I would put that pony in a dry lot tonight..no grass - not even a blade.

Soak his hay for one hour. I use polyhay nets. Drain the hay and feed
him
1.5% of his body weight. Its VERY dangerous to starve any horse but
especially ponies. You need to get him on the ER diet tomorrow to
prevent
any future founders! The idea is to reduce the sugars in Coco's diet
now.
Get some bloodwork. Since he's so young (6?) I wouldn't do the ACTH
test
for Cushings. I definitely would have your vet pull blood for insulin
and
glucose. IF you vet balks at this.......just be firm but polite. This
is
how we evaluate IR> G:I ratio and the RISQI score. I"m betting Coco
is
IR> Get him a grazing muzzle so he can hang out with Sam. But watch
him
for getting out of the muzzle or getting grass in it! You'll have to
duct
tape the bottom closed. The stretched white line is telling us he's got

poor laminae attachment and you need to start a 'founder trim' not a
pasture trim. Get your farrier to bevel the walls on Coco's feet so
there
is no torque on the walls from the ground. Go to www.hoofrehab.com for

pictures ... the read at www.safergrass.org
We know that its very overwhelming in the beginning. We bark "do this"
and
you panic! But the DDT's work. If Coco is sound, let your son ride
him.
Exercise is great for controlling IR. Ask questions - we've all been
were
you are today.
Mandy and Asher in VA


Re: WOW-I just got my forage results back

belhavenfarm <leahsfarm@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Eleanor Kellon, VMD"
<drkellon@...> wrote:

The hay analysis work sheet has been updated, fine to use.

Would you post the analyses from both years, along with where you
live
and what was done with the fields please?

Eleanor

Yes I will! I am out of town this weekend enjoying a fall horse show
and don't have the old results with me.

When I get home I will gather both results and a summary of what has
been done in terms of fertilization, where I live, type of grasses, etc.

leah


Re: beet pulp again

Sheri Becker
 

I just wanted to post something that came up on my Paso Fino BB.A member lives in the NE and said her feed mill told her that 'beet pulp was a thing of the past as far as horse feed" and told her they couldnt order it anymore!!One of the reasons given was because of fuel crops (not sure if they mean BP is being used for bio fule or that Beet fields are being used for fuel crops now?? Many of us immediately called our mills ,many in her area of the country and none of us were told that..As usual, this time of year its harder to get, and my personal mill told me that he couldnt get it until about a week ago ( had been trying for about 4 weeks...I usually get a months supply at a time so I never knew it) but now he is ok..of course it has gone up about 4 dollars a hundred..but heck what ISNT going up with the economy??The other thing that was posted by another BP user ..She was told by her mill that ..'It came across the wire to only buy BP from CA as BP from other staes had been 'tested' and found to have sand added to the bags (supposedly so you are paying for the sand not the BP) Now..I know we have had discussion on the quality of our BP in the past..and I have had bags where if I rinse 3 full scoops of BP I get almost a half cup or more of black sand in the bottom of my muck tub (I suspend my screen bottomed bucket in a muck tub so the BP floats as I am rinsig ..the sand settles to the bottom) but the last few bags have been white , pretty clean and beautiful..It seems when I get the BP in Poly woven bags its 'dirty' The clean stuff has always come in paper bags..I discussed with my feed guy ,knowing he has no control over it..you get it from whoever has it..and as far as knowing what state it comes from ..well pretty impossible unless ypu have access to batch numbers..and Mid West Agri is based in CA so ???
Just wanted to post in case anyone else gets the story that it is no longer available..


Problems with nutrition requirement spreadsheet

Jeanette
 

To whomever maintains the nutrient requirement spreadsheets -- As I've
been completing the spreadsheet ("NRC Maintenance Requirements, 2007)
to calculate my mare's nutrition values, I've come across a couple
places where it seems to me the formulae for calculating ratios have
been misplaced. I'm no spreadsheet wizard and would be most happy to
communicate via email as I suspect most of the folks here don't care
about the inner workings of an Xcel spreadsheet, but what I'm looking
at isn't making sense to me, and I don't want to start making changes
without touching base with someone who knows more than I do first.

Of course, I've been at this for quite a while this afternoon, so I'll
apologize in advance if my eyes are crossed and I'm just not seeing
straight, much less thinking logically. :-&#92;

TIA

Jeanette


Re: Chastetree Berry

Mandy Woods
 

Hi Cheryl,
Welcome to the list! Are you in Illinois?
We can help you figure out your labs. Include the lab units and ranges for normal as well as the values. You can also fill out a case history on each horse at http://www.sportshorses.com/caseform.htm
It sounds like your vet is confusing Cushings with IR. This is not unusual. They are two different syndromes and treated differently. Please reread the Start Up files that were sent to you when you joined. IF you didn't get them, go the C/IR main page and the box on the left of your screen has Messages, Files, Photos....click on Files. IT should be the first one.
Alot depends on what your horse ate and what he did before the bloodwork! If you fed grain before pulling blood, that will not give you an accurate IR result. IF you're testing for Cushings (a benign brain tumor) you need a quiet barn. IT gets detailed but we can walk you through it.
Chastetreeberry is an herb to treat Cushings. IF you suspect your horses of being IR you would reduce the sugar/starch in their diets. Cyphrophetadine is old medicine that does not improve IR. Pegolide is the gold standard now.
The '4' insulin could be from sitting around too long before the test. So ~ tell us in the case history about each horse so we can help you decipher it all. You'll catch on!
Mandy and Asher in VA


Re: New member from Alabama!

Shannon Andress <andresh@...>
 

So, Safechoice is NOT a safe choice... Yowza! And here I was feeling SO
smug about Safechoice... Yes he foundered about 3 years ago on SPRING
GRASS. Caught it early, gave him Garrier's Formula, saw NO rotation
atall in coffin bones, and no major change in feet *except* we do have
to rock his toes up a bit when he's shod, and he has a bit wider white
line than before.

Ever since then, I have been careful to pull him off and put him in a
fenced pineywoods area with scant coastal bermuda from Mar-May, this has
prevented the laminitis at least. No problems since then UNTIL...
We had an awful drought like much of the SE U.S. And, at the first of
Sept we had a rainy spell... The grass which essentially went dormant in
the summer drought came in with a vengance... Musta been pure sugar too.
One AM about 9 weeks ago Coco didn't come to the barn with the rest of
the guys, he just laid in the back pasture refusing to get up. I
listened to his tummy and heard plenty of noise so was fairly certain he
wasn't colicing. It was GRASS FOUNDER. I didn't know it then, but he's
had Cushings all along! We kept him stalled for a month, he got
one-half flake of hay per day and one scoop Safechoice per day (Doctor's
orders).... Wish I'd seen this site then, might have given him something
other than Safechoice....

Coco does seem OK now, and the farrier said we caught it warly this time
too but I am wondering how "early" we caught it if he was so
uncomfortable that he didn't want to walk!!! So time will tell...

So now I am embarking on this adventure to learn all I can, and it helps
to know I'm not on this journey alone! God bless to all, Shan in Bama

-----Original Message-----
From: "Mandy Woods" <bittersweetfarm@...>
To: <EquineCushings@...>

Sent: 11/9/2007 7:34:15 PM
Subject: Re: [EquineCushings] New member from Alabama!

Hi Shannon,
Welcome to the group. Coco is a handsome fella. He does have a cresty

neck! You will read the ponies are IR because they are ponies. IR is
managed by Diet. Its the second "D" in the DDTE/E'S that we preach
about.
We really recommend a low sugar/starch diet and all your horses will
benefit
from it.
After you've read the files that were sent to you, please fill out a
case
history on Coco for us at http://www.sportshorses.com/caseform.htm so we
can
see everything you feed him, his symptoms etc. You may be able to
avoid
laminitis/founder by changing his diet now! Hows' that for proactive!
The files are packed with new information so you may be speaking 'greek'
to
your horse friends.
Mandy and Asher in VA
ps: Nutrena Safe Choice lists at 22.8% sugar/starch and thats way too
high
for an IR pony. You should try the Temporary Emergency Diet.


Chastetree Berry

shabbonawoman
 

Hi,

I'm new to the group. I really don't know what I have. I'm just
trying to understand all the info. Because of a price deal I had both
horses tested in Feb. 05. Luke, the horse we didn't suspect came in at
Insulin 148.8 Glu 119

The vet suggested hypercepadine but I chose Chastetree berry
(Frontier whole berries 1tsp 2x day run through coffee grinder). Both
horses were on grass hay with a little beep pulp and free choice
minerals. I might add that I couldn't keep up with the Ca usage.

June 06
Insulin 4 Glu 95

I took him off Chastetree because of that low number. Vet thought
number was fine. Because of an unrelated problem blood work was done

Oct 06
Glu 174

Jan 07
Insulin 49.9 (no chastetree berry for 7 months)
Glu 130
T3 49 T4 1.7

He is back on chastetree.

Am I doing all right with the chastetree and any comments on Insulin
4.

Thanks,
Cheryl


Re: New member from Alabama!

Mandy Woods
 

Hi Shannon,
Welcome to the group. Coco is a handsome fella. He does have a cresty neck! You will read the ponies are IR because they are ponies. IR is managed by Diet. Its the second "D" in the DDTE/E'S that we preach about. We really recommend a low sugar/starch diet and all your horses will benefit from it.
After you've read the files that were sent to you, please fill out a case history on Coco for us at http://www.sportshorses.com/caseform.htm so we can see everything you feed him, his symptoms etc. You may be able to avoid laminitis/founder by changing his diet now! Hows' that for proactive!
The files are packed with new information so you may be speaking 'greek' to your horse friends.
Mandy and Asher in VA
ps: Nutrena Safe Choice lists at 22.8% sugar/starch and thats way too high for an IR pony. You should try the Temporary Emergency Diet.


Re: New case: Applejack in Kansas (PLUS PERGOLIDE DOSAGE QUESTION)

Mandy Woods
 

Hi Nancy,
We really can't advise you on how much pergolide to give because you had a
Dex Test. The ACTH test would tell us if one mg has Applejack in the
'normal range'..... You could do an ACTH test now if you wanted to. Its a
simple blood pull but it does require special handling. See the files.
The seasonal rise is now going down so what you could do is test the end of
December with the ACTH test and see where the pergolide has her. You stated
you've seen good results in one month on one mg. Thats good! Pergolide
alone will not stop her abscesses. Diet and Trim and Exercise are essential
too.
Mandy and Asher in VA


Re: Testing of feeds - was Carb Guard vs TC Lite (NSC)

Sandra Su
 

Posted by: "Eleanor Kellon, VMD" <mailto:drkellon@...?Subject=
Re%3ATesting%20of%20feeds%20-%20was%20Re%3A%20Carb%20Guard%20vs%20%20TC%20Lite%20%28NSC%29>drkellon@...
<http://profiles.yahoo.com/drkellon> drkellon

Fri Nov 9, 2007 4:00 pm (PST)

For a horse that's in trouble, the only function of the "feed" is to
carry the needed vitamins and minerals into the horse. Nothing is
safer for doing that than rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp - which has
other benefits as well such as lowering triglycerides.
I understand this, and I use Carb-Guard to carry Penny's supplements.
My idea was to use a low-S/S feed rather than the sweet feed the barn
ordinarily gives horses so that Penny wasn't getting any extra S/S,
not even a little. I thought this might be better, especially since
Penny's diet isn't as tight as it should be. She is out in a pasture,
and she does eat what little grass there is. There's not much, so
it's probably stressed, but since there's not much, I figure maybe
she's burning calories just trying to nibble the little ends that she
gets. Because she's getting that bit of grass, I didn't want to
overload her with S/S from feed, too, even if it's only about a pound
a day.
She gets hay in the pasture, which is tossed in for her and
her pasture mates, and when there's hay, the horses eat that, but
when the hay is gone, they nibble at the grass.
A grazing muzzle isn't practical in my boarding situation.
Penny seems to be doing fine on this plan, but it'd be nice
to know Carb-Guard is really lower S/S than, say, sweet feed, which
would be free (the barn provides that, but I have to pay for any
special feed, and I have to go get it and take it to the barn), and
Penny would probably like it better, even with her supplements in it.
I swear, she's just like a child. She'd rather have a candy bar than
broccoli.
So, am I really making a difference by going to the extra
trouble and expense of using Carb-Guard? In such a small amount,
would the sweet feed work just as well? I didn't think so, but if the
answer is yes, then my life would be a lot easier.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...


light therapy

omare12365 <omare12365@...>
 

Has there been any studies done on light therpy for cushings horses?
Thanks (I tried to search for this subject-without success-so I
apologize if it is redundent)


Re: Citrus Peel

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "briarskingstonnet"
<briars@...> wrote:

I was astounded to hear, at one of the local feed stores,today that
feed manufaturers are pushing feed stores to purchase citrus peels
instead of beet pulp

Anyone else heard this?
I think they might have meant citrus pulp (?). Still not a good idea
for IR - at least double the simple sugar.

Eleanor


Re: Testing of feeds - was Carb Guard vs TC Lite (NSC)

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

P.S. I just want to emphasize that for those of you struggling to
get an IR/laminitic horse or pony under control, the LEAST of your
worries should be "feed".

The focus on feeding stuff from a bag has been skillfully driven
into your heads by feed companies. Fortified grains fed in their
recommended amounts have actually done a lot of good in alleviating
mineral deficiencies, much less so in correcting mineral imbalances.
Every horse owner has been conditioned to think they *must* "feed"
the horse from some bagged product. It just ain't so.

Yes, there's a good chance any horse needs supplementation of one or
more minerals above what they are getting in their hay, but you
don't have to tie that supplementation to a high carb grain. Another
consideration most people don't think about is that the amount of
additional minerals your horse gets from the supplemented grain
depends directly on how much of it you feed. If you are feeding
amounts significantly below the manufacturer's recommended daily
feeding, it's not doing much. It's like taking your own One A Day
supplement pill, shaving a corner off it and only taking that.

For a horse that's in trouble, the only function of the "feed" is to
carry the needed vitamins and minerals into the horse. Nothing is
safer for doing that than rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp - which has
other benefits as well such as lowering triglycerides. If you have
your mineral supplement customized to your hay and mixed in a base
of generous flax (2 to 6 oz/day), it won't take more than a small
amount of beet pulp or other feed to get the horse to eat it. Your
goal should be to maximize hay intake, even free choice, and
minimize "feed" when dealing with a horse in trouble.

Eleanor


Citrus Peel

briarskingstonnet <briars@...>
 

I was astounded to hear, at one of the local feed stores,today that
feed manufaturers are pushing feed stores to purchase citrus peels
instead of beet pulp .For horses,too.
They say it's pretty stinky but once you get by that it's fine.
Fine??!!!
Say what???

Anyone else heard this?

Lorna
Kingston,Ontario


Re: Testing of feeds - was Carb Guard vs TC Lite (NSC)

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

We already have a database of commercial feed results. Managing the
funds is a major issue - time, IRS hoops to jump through.
Personally, I think the easiest way to do it might be an "Adopt a
Feed" program. Anyone willing to contribute to the effort could let
us know and when someone identifies a feed that looks promising we
can notify one or more people on the list of sponsors and you can
send the money directly to the testing lab.

Testing of feeds by sampling a single bag has its pros and cons
though. As someone already mentioned, it's going to vary from batch
to batch unless the company is committed to only including
ingredients that fall below a given S/S value. To meet that goal,
they have to test their raw ingredients before they formulate and
mix each batch.

The validity of a sample's results depend on how representative it
is. For hays, coring and mixing as many cores as possible will give
you the most accurate overall picture of what your horse is eating.
The same holds true for feeds. If all the individual ingredients are
below X% S/S, it's a given that the final product will be too, but
testing each and every ingredient is expensive. Next best is the
equivalent of sampling multiple bales - batch testing. In batch
testing, multiple samples are pulled from the finished product,
pooled and a sample taken from that. When you consider that there
are 7+ million horses in this country, if their average feed intake
was even as low as 1 pound per day (way too low I'm sure), that's
2.555 BILLON pounds of feed being produced every year. Even if the
amount of feeds we might be interested in is only 1 million pounds,
you can see how difficult it would be to get a truely representative
analysis by sampling a single bag, or 20, or 100.....

As understanding and research evolves, we may see a complete
overhaul/refinement of how testing is done, to include such things
as available (digestible) starch and analysis of specific sugars -
glucose, fructose, sucrose. For now, we can only focus on general
guidelines we have already found to work (recognizing there are
individual differences) and try to put pressure on the feed
companies to meet our needs by including the information we need in
their GUARANTEED analysis. Every state's Ag Dept has a feed testing
program which checks for accuracy of guaranteed ingredient levels.
If we can push for sugar/starch as a guaranteed maximum, the states
will take over testing and enforcement. For now, focusing our
energies on demanding this information, both sugar and starch, from
companies that are claiming to have low, safe, etc. carb feeds is
likely to be the most productive. Keep the pressure on!

Eleanor


Re: WOW-I just got my forage results back

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

The hay analysis work sheet has been updated, fine to use.

Would you post the analyses from both years, along with where you live
and what was done with the fields please?

Eleanor

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