Date   

Re: Chastetree Berry

Mandy Woods
 

Hi Cheryl,
Welcome to the list! Are you in Illinois?
We can help you figure out your labs. Include the lab units and ranges for normal as well as the values. You can also fill out a case history on each horse at http://www.sportshorses.com/caseform.htm
It sounds like your vet is confusing Cushings with IR. This is not unusual. They are two different syndromes and treated differently. Please reread the Start Up files that were sent to you when you joined. IF you didn't get them, go the C/IR main page and the box on the left of your screen has Messages, Files, Photos....click on Files. IT should be the first one.
Alot depends on what your horse ate and what he did before the bloodwork! If you fed grain before pulling blood, that will not give you an accurate IR result. IF you're testing for Cushings (a benign brain tumor) you need a quiet barn. IT gets detailed but we can walk you through it.
Chastetreeberry is an herb to treat Cushings. IF you suspect your horses of being IR you would reduce the sugar/starch in their diets. Cyphrophetadine is old medicine that does not improve IR. Pegolide is the gold standard now.
The '4' insulin could be from sitting around too long before the test. So ~ tell us in the case history about each horse so we can help you decipher it all. You'll catch on!
Mandy and Asher in VA


Re: New member from Alabama!

Shannon Andress <andresh@...>
 

So, Safechoice is NOT a safe choice... Yowza! And here I was feeling SO
smug about Safechoice... Yes he foundered about 3 years ago on SPRING
GRASS. Caught it early, gave him Garrier's Formula, saw NO rotation
atall in coffin bones, and no major change in feet *except* we do have
to rock his toes up a bit when he's shod, and he has a bit wider white
line than before.

Ever since then, I have been careful to pull him off and put him in a
fenced pineywoods area with scant coastal bermuda from Mar-May, this has
prevented the laminitis at least. No problems since then UNTIL...
We had an awful drought like much of the SE U.S. And, at the first of
Sept we had a rainy spell... The grass which essentially went dormant in
the summer drought came in with a vengance... Musta been pure sugar too.
One AM about 9 weeks ago Coco didn't come to the barn with the rest of
the guys, he just laid in the back pasture refusing to get up. I
listened to his tummy and heard plenty of noise so was fairly certain he
wasn't colicing. It was GRASS FOUNDER. I didn't know it then, but he's
had Cushings all along! We kept him stalled for a month, he got
one-half flake of hay per day and one scoop Safechoice per day (Doctor's
orders).... Wish I'd seen this site then, might have given him something
other than Safechoice....

Coco does seem OK now, and the farrier said we caught it warly this time
too but I am wondering how "early" we caught it if he was so
uncomfortable that he didn't want to walk!!! So time will tell...

So now I am embarking on this adventure to learn all I can, and it helps
to know I'm not on this journey alone! God bless to all, Shan in Bama

-----Original Message-----
From: "Mandy Woods" <bittersweetfarm@...>
To: <EquineCushings@...>

Sent: 11/9/2007 7:34:15 PM
Subject: Re: [EquineCushings] New member from Alabama!

Hi Shannon,
Welcome to the group. Coco is a handsome fella. He does have a cresty

neck! You will read the ponies are IR because they are ponies. IR is
managed by Diet. Its the second "D" in the DDTE/E'S that we preach
about.
We really recommend a low sugar/starch diet and all your horses will
benefit
from it.
After you've read the files that were sent to you, please fill out a
case
history on Coco for us at http://www.sportshorses.com/caseform.htm so we
can
see everything you feed him, his symptoms etc. You may be able to
avoid
laminitis/founder by changing his diet now! Hows' that for proactive!
The files are packed with new information so you may be speaking 'greek'
to
your horse friends.
Mandy and Asher in VA
ps: Nutrena Safe Choice lists at 22.8% sugar/starch and thats way too
high
for an IR pony. You should try the Temporary Emergency Diet.


Chastetree Berry

shabbonawoman
 

Hi,

I'm new to the group. I really don't know what I have. I'm just
trying to understand all the info. Because of a price deal I had both
horses tested in Feb. 05. Luke, the horse we didn't suspect came in at
Insulin 148.8 Glu 119

The vet suggested hypercepadine but I chose Chastetree berry
(Frontier whole berries 1tsp 2x day run through coffee grinder). Both
horses were on grass hay with a little beep pulp and free choice
minerals. I might add that I couldn't keep up with the Ca usage.

June 06
Insulin 4 Glu 95

I took him off Chastetree because of that low number. Vet thought
number was fine. Because of an unrelated problem blood work was done

Oct 06
Glu 174

Jan 07
Insulin 49.9 (no chastetree berry for 7 months)
Glu 130
T3 49 T4 1.7

He is back on chastetree.

Am I doing all right with the chastetree and any comments on Insulin
4.

Thanks,
Cheryl


Re: New member from Alabama!

Mandy Woods
 

Hi Shannon,
Welcome to the group. Coco is a handsome fella. He does have a cresty neck! You will read the ponies are IR because they are ponies. IR is managed by Diet. Its the second "D" in the DDTE/E'S that we preach about. We really recommend a low sugar/starch diet and all your horses will benefit from it.
After you've read the files that were sent to you, please fill out a case history on Coco for us at http://www.sportshorses.com/caseform.htm so we can see everything you feed him, his symptoms etc. You may be able to avoid laminitis/founder by changing his diet now! Hows' that for proactive!
The files are packed with new information so you may be speaking 'greek' to your horse friends.
Mandy and Asher in VA
ps: Nutrena Safe Choice lists at 22.8% sugar/starch and thats way too high for an IR pony. You should try the Temporary Emergency Diet.


Re: New case: Applejack in Kansas (PLUS PERGOLIDE DOSAGE QUESTION)

Mandy Woods
 

Hi Nancy,
We really can't advise you on how much pergolide to give because you had a
Dex Test. The ACTH test would tell us if one mg has Applejack in the
'normal range'..... You could do an ACTH test now if you wanted to. Its a
simple blood pull but it does require special handling. See the files.
The seasonal rise is now going down so what you could do is test the end of
December with the ACTH test and see where the pergolide has her. You stated
you've seen good results in one month on one mg. Thats good! Pergolide
alone will not stop her abscesses. Diet and Trim and Exercise are essential
too.
Mandy and Asher in VA


Re: Testing of feeds - was Carb Guard vs TC Lite (NSC)

Sandra Su
 

Posted by: "Eleanor Kellon, VMD" <mailto:drkellon@...?Subject=
Re%3ATesting%20of%20feeds%20-%20was%20Re%3A%20Carb%20Guard%20vs%20%20TC%20Lite%20%28NSC%29>drkellon@...
<http://profiles.yahoo.com/drkellon> drkellon

Fri Nov 9, 2007 4:00 pm (PST)

For a horse that's in trouble, the only function of the "feed" is to
carry the needed vitamins and minerals into the horse. Nothing is
safer for doing that than rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp - which has
other benefits as well such as lowering triglycerides.
I understand this, and I use Carb-Guard to carry Penny's supplements.
My idea was to use a low-S/S feed rather than the sweet feed the barn
ordinarily gives horses so that Penny wasn't getting any extra S/S,
not even a little. I thought this might be better, especially since
Penny's diet isn't as tight as it should be. She is out in a pasture,
and she does eat what little grass there is. There's not much, so
it's probably stressed, but since there's not much, I figure maybe
she's burning calories just trying to nibble the little ends that she
gets. Because she's getting that bit of grass, I didn't want to
overload her with S/S from feed, too, even if it's only about a pound
a day.
She gets hay in the pasture, which is tossed in for her and
her pasture mates, and when there's hay, the horses eat that, but
when the hay is gone, they nibble at the grass.
A grazing muzzle isn't practical in my boarding situation.
Penny seems to be doing fine on this plan, but it'd be nice
to know Carb-Guard is really lower S/S than, say, sweet feed, which
would be free (the barn provides that, but I have to pay for any
special feed, and I have to go get it and take it to the barn), and
Penny would probably like it better, even with her supplements in it.
I swear, she's just like a child. She'd rather have a candy bar than
broccoli.
So, am I really making a difference by going to the extra
trouble and expense of using Carb-Guard? In such a small amount,
would the sweet feed work just as well? I didn't think so, but if the
answer is yes, then my life would be a lot easier.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...


light therapy

omare12365 <omare12365@...>
 

Has there been any studies done on light therpy for cushings horses?
Thanks (I tried to search for this subject-without success-so I
apologize if it is redundent)


Re: Citrus Peel

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "briarskingstonnet"
<briars@...> wrote:

I was astounded to hear, at one of the local feed stores,today that
feed manufaturers are pushing feed stores to purchase citrus peels
instead of beet pulp

Anyone else heard this?
I think they might have meant citrus pulp (?). Still not a good idea
for IR - at least double the simple sugar.

Eleanor


Re: Testing of feeds - was Carb Guard vs TC Lite (NSC)

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

P.S. I just want to emphasize that for those of you struggling to
get an IR/laminitic horse or pony under control, the LEAST of your
worries should be "feed".

The focus on feeding stuff from a bag has been skillfully driven
into your heads by feed companies. Fortified grains fed in their
recommended amounts have actually done a lot of good in alleviating
mineral deficiencies, much less so in correcting mineral imbalances.
Every horse owner has been conditioned to think they *must* "feed"
the horse from some bagged product. It just ain't so.

Yes, there's a good chance any horse needs supplementation of one or
more minerals above what they are getting in their hay, but you
don't have to tie that supplementation to a high carb grain. Another
consideration most people don't think about is that the amount of
additional minerals your horse gets from the supplemented grain
depends directly on how much of it you feed. If you are feeding
amounts significantly below the manufacturer's recommended daily
feeding, it's not doing much. It's like taking your own One A Day
supplement pill, shaving a corner off it and only taking that.

For a horse that's in trouble, the only function of the "feed" is to
carry the needed vitamins and minerals into the horse. Nothing is
safer for doing that than rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp - which has
other benefits as well such as lowering triglycerides. If you have
your mineral supplement customized to your hay and mixed in a base
of generous flax (2 to 6 oz/day), it won't take more than a small
amount of beet pulp or other feed to get the horse to eat it. Your
goal should be to maximize hay intake, even free choice, and
minimize "feed" when dealing with a horse in trouble.

Eleanor


Citrus Peel

briarskingstonnet <briars@...>
 

I was astounded to hear, at one of the local feed stores,today that
feed manufaturers are pushing feed stores to purchase citrus peels
instead of beet pulp .For horses,too.
They say it's pretty stinky but once you get by that it's fine.
Fine??!!!
Say what???

Anyone else heard this?

Lorna
Kingston,Ontario


Re: Testing of feeds - was Carb Guard vs TC Lite (NSC)

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

We already have a database of commercial feed results. Managing the
funds is a major issue - time, IRS hoops to jump through.
Personally, I think the easiest way to do it might be an "Adopt a
Feed" program. Anyone willing to contribute to the effort could let
us know and when someone identifies a feed that looks promising we
can notify one or more people on the list of sponsors and you can
send the money directly to the testing lab.

Testing of feeds by sampling a single bag has its pros and cons
though. As someone already mentioned, it's going to vary from batch
to batch unless the company is committed to only including
ingredients that fall below a given S/S value. To meet that goal,
they have to test their raw ingredients before they formulate and
mix each batch.

The validity of a sample's results depend on how representative it
is. For hays, coring and mixing as many cores as possible will give
you the most accurate overall picture of what your horse is eating.
The same holds true for feeds. If all the individual ingredients are
below X% S/S, it's a given that the final product will be too, but
testing each and every ingredient is expensive. Next best is the
equivalent of sampling multiple bales - batch testing. In batch
testing, multiple samples are pulled from the finished product,
pooled and a sample taken from that. When you consider that there
are 7+ million horses in this country, if their average feed intake
was even as low as 1 pound per day (way too low I'm sure), that's
2.555 BILLON pounds of feed being produced every year. Even if the
amount of feeds we might be interested in is only 1 million pounds,
you can see how difficult it would be to get a truely representative
analysis by sampling a single bag, or 20, or 100.....

As understanding and research evolves, we may see a complete
overhaul/refinement of how testing is done, to include such things
as available (digestible) starch and analysis of specific sugars -
glucose, fructose, sucrose. For now, we can only focus on general
guidelines we have already found to work (recognizing there are
individual differences) and try to put pressure on the feed
companies to meet our needs by including the information we need in
their GUARANTEED analysis. Every state's Ag Dept has a feed testing
program which checks for accuracy of guaranteed ingredient levels.
If we can push for sugar/starch as a guaranteed maximum, the states
will take over testing and enforcement. For now, focusing our
energies on demanding this information, both sugar and starch, from
companies that are claiming to have low, safe, etc. carb feeds is
likely to be the most productive. Keep the pressure on!

Eleanor


Re: WOW-I just got my forage results back

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

The hay analysis work sheet has been updated, fine to use.

Would you post the analyses from both years, along with where you live
and what was done with the fields please?

Eleanor


New member from Alabama!

Shannon Andress <andresh@...>
 

Hi! I am so glad to find this group, a friend in Alabama Trail Riders
directed me here! I am looking forward to learning all I can to
increase Coco's quality of life and health!!! We love Coco and he's
priceless to us. He is described as "a giant beanie baby" 'cause he's
so darn cute and sweet! If I was smart enough to teach him tricks he
could be a circus pony! He will fetch his bucket and halter when I ask
him to, he steals rubber food bowls of food away from the other
horses... when he runs away with them in his teeth, he doesnt spill a
drop of grain (but that's a BIG NO-NO, I always have to go retreive it
from him, all he gets is a little Nutrena Safechoice for now)! But I
feel so sorry for him when all the "big horses" are chowing down on
their sweet feed and grain, and poor little Coco is just looking at
them so longingly... :-(

I tell him "it's for your own good, Buddy! Hey, thanks again for this
great resource! Shannon in Montgomery AL

P.S. - Please check out Coco's pics! I posted them to this Group's
PHOTOS... I think I named the album "Coco and Sam in Montgomery AL"
http://pets.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/photos/browse/7c75


Re: laminitis forum

maragreymare
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Kathleen Gustafson" <katmando@...> wrote:

--- In EquineCushings@..., "maragreymare"
<maragreymare@> wrote:

Ally, is doing wonderfully, BTW...16 months after her Cushing's
diagnosis following a complex injury.

Mara,

I remember you and Ally and all you were going through. What wonderful
news! Congratulations and a pat on the back for all your good work!

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
Kathleen,

Thanks. I can't stress enough how valuable what I've learned on this list is for my
mare...and especially, Dr. Kellon's amazing support & expertise...I have spent hours upon
hours reviewing files & archives, grateful for this incredible resource. It takes time to heal.
We did the DDT's. We do pergolide pills, the way we learned here. Her diet is
immaculate (hay tested & custom minerals by Dr.K), & what a difference minerals make--
when I didn't have them for several months & then restarted them, it was black & white...
Finding the right corrective farrier & shoeing by radiographs with a vet (she hasn't
foundered, but has heel problems). She has a backed up toe, break over, & heel support.
I give her a weekly Legend injection & after a lot of thought, gave her the 10 day Tildren
series for her hocks, back, & navicular issues--we feel we got a very good result with it,
but that was accompanied by twice daily exercise & balanced minerals. We do massage
& chiro as well...but most of all, Ally is bright & willing & knows what to do to get
better....she wanted to get well & drove the process--but to me, it feels like a miracle to
have a horse with so many issues come back. I am over the moon!

Thanks so much for your support & all that you do!
Mara & Ally


Re: Carb Guard vs TC Lite (NSC)

Vicki Kline <vlk@...>
 

OK, so I like the idea too, BUT wouldn't the results vary from batch to
batch for any given feed company?

Vicki


Re: Carb Guard vs TC Lite (NSC)

kathrynandsofie
 

Great idea,



Who administers the fund? Who makes the decision to test? Can a DataBase
be created with results?



Thanks



Kathryn Sullivan

Tipperary Farm


Re: New case: Applejack in Kansas (PLUS PERGOLIDE DOSAGE QUESTION)

Nancy Chaison
 

Amberlee and Mandy:

Thanks for your input. Kathleen Gustafson (and the team) worked up
the analysis and gave recommendations for supplementation (including
phosphorus!). MANY THANKS to KFG -- I know this will be a lifesaver
and get Applejack on the road to recovery and hoof health. I don't
have any x-rays to post yet, but I do have a question about
Pergolide dosage.

Applejack has been on 1 mg Pergolide for a month. Although there
has been some improvement (body filling in vs. muscle wasting,
brighter eyes and attitude), she has continued to have abscessing ,
which may be inevitable since the conditions to cause it were
brewing for awhile before the Pergolide (laminitis and suspected
IR). To assist her with the abcessing I am getting hoof attention
every 4 weeks and getting her diet balanced within the next few
days.

I would like to increase her Pergolide too if it could help her get
better faster, and in case the time of the year would warrant it.
I'm guessing from what I've gleaned from this group that testing
this time of year might not give useful results. Would it be
advisable to cut some of her 1 mg pills in half and increase her
dosage to 1.5 per day?

Nancy


--- In EquineCushings@..., 5 Pine Ranch
<fivepineranch@...> wrote:

Hi Nancy, pretty good hay for low Iron, low sugar/starch. Your
Ca:P ratio need some work, very deficient in phosphorous. The
ADF/NDF values - the higher this value, the less digestible hay
quality. Your protein is low but all in all, it's not a terribly
difficult hay to work with. Getting the phosphorous is prolly going
to be the biggest concern here. Is Applejack finishing the hay or
leaving some behind?

If it's within your budget, I always encourage folks to consider
atleast the first consult be done with Dr. Kellon. She charges a
small fee for this service and can be reached at drkellon <at> aol
<dot> com Her expertise is clinical nutrition. The biggest
concern I have is your deficient phosphorous, which is often
unpalatable in large amounts.

Excellent job on the case history & hay analysis, you made this
one pretty easy for us having done so much work! How is she doing
on the pergolide?

Abcessing can indeed be linked to laminitis. It is pockets of
fluid that occur as a result of the inflammation that then need to
work their way out of the hoof. It's miserable to deal with. Any x-
rays you can put up for us?

Amberlee
www.fivepineranch.com
Please Visit Our Site!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Trying to prioritize

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter. That's something I live in
constant fear of.

See how this would work for you:

Free choice hay.
TCSSF only as your carrier.
Flax.
E in capsule form or Uckele Liquid E-50.
Restart mineral mix assuming an intake of 18 pounds/day.
Resume U Gard.

Without an ACTH I'm really torn between pergolide and Chastetree/Vitex
but given her age, irregular cycles and a winter rather than fall
pattern to her worst times I'm leaning more toward the Vitex but at
higher dose than you have been using, more like 2 tbsp/day.

Otherwise, I'd get her on AAKG again, try it in her feed twice a day
at 4 to 5 grams/dose. You can order it in bulk powder from Bunny on
the DSLD list. Her e-mail is dsldinfo "at" gmail.com. That will save
you time. For ACTH blocking and circulatory support the simplest thing
for you to do would be to try Panax ginseng because it can be added to
the feed. Order this from Rainey Farm, the 3 year root powder:

http://www.raineyginseng.com/component/option,com_virtuemart/page,shop.
browse/category_id,2/Itemid,3/lang,en/

Give her 1.5 tbsp once a day, in the feed.

The only thing she needs to get twice a day is the AAKG. If you want
to use the Jiaogulan in the meantime, give that twice a day too, 3 tsp
in the feed.

It also saves time for me to assemble a week's work of supplements at
a time, pack either into Ziploc bags or small containers. If you set
up a little assembly line it goes pretty quickly. Send a little olive
oil along with them to help everything stick to the TCSSF.
All your husband will have to do is squirt on the olive oil, dump in
the supplements and mix a little bit.

I think I'd wait to deworm her until you get her back on better
support. Don't doubt that she needs it with her history, but she's so
fragile I'd like to see her better supported before you do that. Wait
about 12 hours after deworming to give the UAA. Could also try
Microlactin:

http://www.supplementdirect.com/?content=52&product_id=13987

Start 2 or 3 days before deworming her, 1 full ounce by volume measure
once a day. Continue until the bag is gone.

I REALLY hope all that didn't put you on overload! Can only imagine
how stressful this has to be.

One last thing is that when things settle a bit and you can get around
to blood work I think I'd get a Lyme titer redone. It's notoriously
difficult to eradicate.

Eleanor


Re: Trying to prioritize

bigwhitevan2002
 

--
She is need of deworming again too so that will be at the top of my
list.
I haven't done any new bloodwork and won't for a while yet but even on
an extremely strict diet she still had high insulin everytime I
tested it.
So, what would you all start with first keeping in mind the very
little time that I have right now to devote to her?
Thank you,
Kelly



Hey Kelly,
I am so sorry to here about your daughter my son was in an ATV
accident 2 years ago, sustained severe TBI (tramatic brain injury)and
was 9 months in rehab,permanently altered him. I understand the toll
this takes on your time and emotions..

I also understand the mess it puts our husbands in when they are left
to take over in things they are not used to doing...like taking care
of small children, households and high maintenance horses.

Dont feel guilty about Peggy it will work out, to help out her and
hubby how about just feed her hay and custom mix, if you hay is low
enuff S/S, would you have time to make several days worth of her
minerals mixed up in baggies with other supps and her meds if others
chime in and see the need, then hubby can just open a ziplock and serve..

Is there a farrier in your area you trust that can take over her feet
while you are caring for your daughter?

Know any teenage girls (or boys) who would be willing to comeover in
the afternoons and help out with barn chores or wrapping legs etc...

I know these suggestions arent much, mainly I just wanted you to know
I understand how overwhelming life is for you right now and not too
feel guilty that Peggy isnt getting her deluxe treatment she will be
fine on the basics..

Take time to care for your daughter.
Keep your chin up your daughter will need your strength.
Julie


Re: Nutritional Seminar with Poulin next week

Vicki Kline <vlk@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., Nancy Collins <threecatfarm@...>
wrote:
One of our large clinics is hosting an evening of speakers, one of
which is
Dr Donovan from Poulin. Do you have any questions you'd like me to
ask
about Carb Safe? I'm already going to ask about the added Iron and
see if
I can get an update of mineral levels.
Nancy C and Beau and Gabe in NH
Nancy,

Iron is one question; another is why they don't think the magnesium is
important and don't include it in their guaranteed analysis. They also
have a brand new feed called Equi-Pro Revolution with "controlled
starch" but I don't know what that means - what's the nsc?

And here's a question for them or anyone that knows - I presume that
soybean hulls are OK, but soybean meal? Doesn't that contain
estrogens? Shouldn't we avoid plant estrogens for animals with
Cushings/hormonal issues?

Vicki

PS Revolution also contains wheat middlings and distillers grains -
problems with those for IR?

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