Re: Winter pasture...

Janet Gerl

"and I wrap his legs for warmth"

I thought that horse's cannot feel Cold in their legs. That is why you could submerge their foot/leg in a bucket of ice and leave it there as the horse cannot feel cold in their legs.
Does anyone know? Or is this something unique to EC horses?


Equine Med/Surg -Insulin Resistance

equimedsurg <equimedsurg@...>

Dear Dr. Kellon:

Thank you for getting back to me on 12/6/07. Dialogue and
advancements in detecting insulin resistance is a great help to
owners. The elimination of laminitis is the goal of all.

1. Regarding NSC - your first note mentioned "grass and feeds of 15%
NSC" and that is why I wanted to make sure we are all on the same
page. If we hear owners using the term "low NSC hay or fresh grass"
as a term to describe recent diets, there is a problem (unless a huge
stockpile of hay from 6 months ago was tested). If owners go back to
retest new hay loads or fresh grass, the NSC is no longer on the
report. You are correct, ESC is not a new term but it wasn't even on
reports prior to a few months ago and coupled to the dropping NSC, it
is important owners have a clear picture. Of course, it doesn't help
that grain companies still use the "low NSC" term.

When I have owners from across the country call me and start with "I
feed low NSC diets and still he gets laminitis", we need to make sure
we are comparing apples to apples. (Not feeding them, of course, due
to being a bad snack!) Horses can have low carbo grain, snacks, the
right hay, and even fresh grass, if we monitor insulin.

2. Regarding your thoughts on horses that still struggle on low
carbo diets with laminitis. I totally agree and that is why better
and different ways to detect these cases and monitor them are
required. You highlighted that diet alone will not do it and that is
why many need insulin-control assitance to turn around.

3. Regarding Dr. Ralston's insulin data - I am referencing her work
and didn't cite Dr. Joe Pagan. Dr. Ralston is a Veterinarian, PHD,
AVMA Board certified in veterinary nutrition and a professor at
Rutgers University. Her work is in numerous books.

4. Regarding Fasting Insulin - We both agree that this is not the
best way to diagnose cases. The reason I brought it up is because
many owners and several members of this site just last week were not
sure how to do fasting tests, or if they should do or if they should
feed hay, or if it causes false results. In my first and next
followup tests I challenge them "softly" with a very small amount of
sweet feed to pick up those horses often missed and to get a better
idea of their level of resistance. Later, I test them on their total
new diet of proper grain, hay, and snacks to get their new "real
world" routine level.

Other doctors will test horses on only a low carbo hay. I avoid this
because it was either not the diet they were on prior to problems or
it is not what they are going to be eating later on in life.
Exclusively, if they are eating only hay on a small dirt lot, this is
not the answer. There are ways to get these guys out of "jail",
allow turnout, and, in many cases, get back to showing or ridden by

5. Thanks for the Virginia articles . I will get with you next week
on a recent (Nov. 2007) study of carbo loading insulin resisitant
horses that appeared in a recent journal.

Have a great weekend.


Dr. Frank K. Reilly


Joan and Dazzle

The case histories is only part of the file. It appears that all of
2007 is missing....Perhaps it can be restored from a back up copy?

Joan and Dazzle

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Mandy Woods"
<bittersweetfarm@...> wrote:
I just opened the Case
Histories if anyone needs to go in there.

Re: hyperthyroid?

sun_hair2002 <georgeag11@...>

Thanks for your response, Jane. I did check the anhydrosis files
prior to having the bloodwork done, which is why I wanted the vet
to check her thyroid levels. However, the files suggest that this is
normally a problem with HYPO rather than HYPER thyroidism,
wherein her T3 should have been low, rather than high.

However, one statement in the files did seem possibly relevant: "as
I understand it, too much TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone) is
produced which leads ultimately to thyroid exhaustion, the thyroid
ceases to respond to the TSH and therefore is no longer producing
sufficient thryoidhormones. The key with that disease is to slow
down the pituitary's production of TSH (and other hormones) so
that the thyroid can recover and produce the correct amount of
thyroid hormones."

The vet suggested (before we had the results back) that if they
came back without answers, we might test her ACTH. Does the
above statement suggest that her ACTH might be the root cause?
Does it make sense to have the vet back out for ad'l bloodwork?

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Jane" <kohpoh_th@...> wrote:

You can check the files for anhydrosis. They should give you a lot
of information on this condition which is most often caused by stress
in some form and probably a feed imbalance too.

Winter pasture...

minesafety <MineSafety@...>

Hi Carol, I have X-Large BOA boots for my draft that he wears when he
is out (from 7:30 a.m. - 4/4:30 p.m.), and I wrap his legs for warmth.
I use the polyester-quilt that wraps around his front legs about 1-1/2
times and then held in place with the more stretchy wrap with velcro. I
was also concerned because we are in upstate NY, and this is the first
winter I've tried this (after having winter laministis last year). When
I unwrap his legs when he comes in, he is nice and toasty! He is very
patient about the whole thing and the BOA boots work great.

Re: EquineMedSurg - Insulin Resistance

equimedsurg <equimedsurg@...>

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Claire C. Cox-Wilson"
<shotgun.ranch@...> wrote:

--- In EquineCushings@..., "equimedsurg" <equimedsurg@>

Dr. Kellon:

Thank you for taking the time to send me a note. The exchange of
information, newest research findings, and testing methods helps
owners with horses with Insulin Resistance. I look forward to us
working together towards this goal.
Dr. Frank K. Reilly
Dr. Reilly

I have been a member of this list since the summer of 2000. I am
familiar with this list's philosophy and the protocol for management
of both IR and Cushing's horses. Protocol and guidelines that have
proven effective over and over again by horses on this list,
my own. As a member of this list I'm offended that you would use
list to privately contact horse owners of IR horses to sell your
products and recommend your practices. Not only do I find this to
be a
violation of our members' privacy but I feel it is unethical, not to
mention an insult to Dr. Kellon's work here.
It is also quite clear that you have not read our files.
We are very familiar with the replacement of the NSC value by the
term and its implications. You're singing to the choir. And I also
believe that the feed analysis pioneer is Dr. Kellon not Katy Watts.
As for your Sweet feed challenge....I reserve my opinion as I'm not
doctor or scientist.
After visiting your website, I would like to know why you don't
any ingredients for your products? Personally,I would not feed my
horses a supplement without a list of ingredients and a guaranteed
analysis would be helpful too.
Claire from AZ
Dear Claire:

Thank you for sending me a note all the way from Arizona.

Dr. Kellon and I are having informative and helpful discussions and I
hope you get a chance to read them.

Have a great holiday season.

Dr. Reilly

Can I put my IR horse out in the winter pasture ?

Carol Vincent

Good Morning Everyone,
Since winter is obviously here in NE Indiana - we received our first 4"
of snow - can I put my horses out in the large pasture for extended
periods of time or do I still need to monitor my mare's time out in the
frozen tundra?

Currently - she remains on grass hay - dirt lot - beet pulp and
vitamin/supplements from horse tech. She is doing AWESOME!!

Thanks again,
carol n romka

Julie's hay....posted in files section

julie <juliecongleton@...>


Mandy Woods

Ooops, Julie,
I didn't realize the hayform file is down too. I just opened the Case Histories if anyone needs to go in there.


Mandy Woods

Hi Julie,
You can enter your hay results at
Mandy and Asher in VA



A major reason for the ginseng is blocking ACTH effects (i.e. high ACTH triggers cortisol release from the adrenals):

Neurosci Lett. 2003 May 29;343(1):62-6. Links

Effects of ginseng saponin administered intraperitoneally on the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in mice.

Kim DH, Moon YS, Jung JS, Min SK, Son BK, Suh HW, Song DK.

Department of Psychiatry, College of Medicine, Institute of Natural Medicine, Hallym University, Chunchon, Kangwon-Do, 200-702, South Korea.

Intraperitoneal injection of ginseng total saponin (GTS; 5 and 20 mg/kg) raised plasma corticosterone levels in mice. However, interestingly, pretreatment of animals with the same doses of GTS (5 and 20 mg/kg) significantly attenuated the immobilization stress-induced increase in plasma corticosterone levels. Of the ginsenosides Rb(1), Rb(2), Rc, Rd, Re, Rf, Rg(1), 20(S)-Rg(3), and 20(R)-Rg(3) injected intraperitoneally at doses of 0.1-2 mg/kg, Rc (2 mg/kg) significantly inhibited the immobilization stress-induced increase in plasma corticosterone levels. GTS and Rc administered intraperitoneally did not affect the immobilization stress-induced elevation of plasma adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) level. Pretreatment with GTS and Rc significantly attenuated the increase in plasma corticosterone levels induced by intraperitoneal injection of ACTH (30 microg/kg). These results suggest that GTS and Rc inhibit the immobilization stress-induced increase in plasma corticosterone levels by blocking ACTH action in the adrenal gland. Ginseng may be proposed to be useful for treatment of stress related disorders.

In other words, it seems to "compete" with ACTH, therefore blocking its effects.

This study also found a cortisol lowering effect in another high cortisol condition in humans - depression:

Int J Gynaecol Obstet. 1999 Dec;67(3):169-74. Related Articles, Links
Effect of Korean red ginseng on psychological functions in patients with
severe climacteric syndromes.

Tode T, Kikuchi Y, Hirata J, Kita T, Nakata H, Nagata I.

Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, National Defense Medical College,
Tokorozawa, Saitama, Japan. qw104765@...

OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the degree of psychological dysfunction and levels of
stress hormones in postmenopausal women with climacteric syndromes and effect
of Korean red ginseng (RG) on them. METHODS: ACTH, cortisol and DHEA-S in
peripheral blood from 12 postmenopausal women with climacteric syndromes or 8
postmenopausal women without any climacteric syndrome were measured before and
days after treatment with daily oral administration of 6 g RG. Blood samples
were collected in the early morning on the bed-rest. In postmenopausal women
with climacteric syndromes such as fatigue, insomnia and depression,
psychological tests using the Cornell Medical Index (CMI) and the State-Trait
Inventory (STAI) were performed before and 30 days after treatment with RG.
RESULTS: CMI score as well as anxiety (A)-state in STAI score in postmenopausal
women with climacteric syndromes was significantly higher than that without
climacteric syndrome, while DHEA-S levels in postmenopausal women with
syndromes were about a half of those without climacteric syndrome.
Consequently, cortisol/DHEA-S (C/D) ratio was significantly higher in
women with climacteric syndromes than in those without climacteric syndrome.
postmenopausal women with climacteric syndromes were treated with daily oral
administration of 6 g RG for 30 days, CMI and STAI A-state scores decreased
within normal range. Although the decreased DHEA-S levels were not restored to
the levels in postmenopausal women without climacteric syndrome, the C/D ratio
decreased significantly after treatment with RG. CONCLUSIONS: Improvement of
CMI and STAI scores in postmenopausal women suffering climacteric syndromes,
particularly fatigue, insomnia and depression, by RG seemed to be brought about
in part by effects of RG on stress-related hormones as shown by a decrease in
C/D ratio.

Eleanor M. Kellon, V.M.D.
Equine Nutritional Solutions
58 Maple Farm Road
Ephrata, PA 17522

More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -

ACTH - help ! ? do not understand


Michelle L. Chambers

**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest

Re: Winter pasture...


why do you wrap his legs ?
My mare was wearing easy boots while she was out but when i went this AM (30
F*) they were extremely hard to put on. I even put them in my running car
w/ the heat on. There is enough snow on the ground where (hopefully) that it
is a little cushin w/o hitting the frozen ground. She is only w/ a pony so
there is not alot of running around. My barefoot trimmer said she should be
fine. I always had her shoes on in the AM only and off at night when in a
small paddock w/ her run in stall bedded deeply.

Michelle L. Chambers

**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest

Re: ACceptable treats for cushings horse

Carlynne Allbee

1. One of my horses seems to prefer a good scratching on the withers to any treat you could feed her.
2. When I eat celery, I get the strings caught in my teeth. Could that happen to a horse and how miserable would that be since they don't floss?
3. One treat my guys love is a couple Fritos. Not a handful, just a couple of them.
4. They love anything fed by hand.

Carlynne and Patience

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5 Pine Ranch

Julie, our case history & hay analysis websites are down. We are
working to fix this. If you have a PDF copy of your hay analysis,
please post in our Files Section


Re: Acceptable treats for Cushings horse

Saucier Kathy

My horse Magic loves his treats. Since I can't do much else with him anymore, grooming, loving and treats are our interactions.
I find the sugar free peppermints at Wal-Mart. I haven't found a grocery store brand that has them here but all the WM's do. So try that.
This brand is Bob's Starlight Mints made by Farley's & Sathers Candy Co.
I will occasionally bring him a piece of broccoli stem. He enjoys getting something "green". (before I go any further I use treats in moderation - small amounts not handfuls)
He also likes a few herbs. I have chopped Hawthorn berries & leaves and I toss a small palmful of each in a bucket along with a few sunflower seeds as something different from time to time. Always keeping total amounts small, plus he seems to tolerate these ok. Possibly not all IR horses can, I don't know.

But I also want to recommend the Skodes Horse Treats. Magic was a taste tester for the Nutty Seed cookies and was one of the few that turned his nose up to them. I tossed them in the freezer and forgot about them for awhile. When I discovered them I gave him a "frozen" one and he has eaten them every since. Go figure!
And he LOVES the new Minty Rose brownies as well.
The mix that someone mentioned is the Nutty Seed recipe in dry form for you to bake up the cookies yourself. It gives you the option of thick and moist or thin and hard, depending on your horse's liking.

But now for a funny story.
Today I was standing in the aisle of the barn I board at with Magic held loosely by the lead rope busy talking. The refrigerator is also in that aisle. Magic starting using his lip to get into the freezer and actually opened the door. He knows where his cookies are!!
He is a very happy horse when he gets his peppermints and his Skodes treats.
Kathy Saucier

Re: hyperthyroid?

Jane <kohpoh_th@...>

You can check the files for anhydrosis. They should give you a lot
of information on this condition which is most often caused by stress
in some form and probably a feed imbalance too.
Jane in Thailand--- In EquineCushings@..., "sun_hair2002"
<georgeag11@...> wrote:

My horse (not previously diagnosed as cushingoid) had her thyroid
tested this week. She was
exhibiting an intolerance to exercise, and had stopped sweating
(we're in Floirda). Her T-4
was normal, but T-3 was rather elevated. My vet is perplexed, and
has offered no solutions
to her difficulties, other than to give her more food and more
electrolytes, and test her agina
in a month (she ran the bloodwork twice to be sure it wasn't an

I couldn't find any information on treating hyperthyroidism in the
files, or in the archives.

Can anyone offer any insight into what I need to consider?

Epona glue on shoes update...

J Amick

I promised I'd give an update on Es's glue on shoes. They have been on now 2+ weeks, and
they are doing great. I had the farrier place one nail on each side of both shoes, because the mud
here was horrible! We now have ice, snow and 6 degree temps. Both shoes are still on and functioning well.

I was asked why I selected these shoes, and I failed to answer due to time.
These shoes have a metal wire support inside of them for flexion and give with the hoof.. I believe
that is shown on the web site.

Again, I am pleased and so is the farrier. He told me that these shoes would be a God send
for minature horses. We had to use a hair dryer on them to dry since the temps were in the 20's. Just some food for thought.

Re: ginseng prescribed by Dr. there a write-up I can show my vet?

n rand <nantomluna@...>

My vet is coming out to see Tom tomorrow and I want to be able to show him something re: the canadian ginseng (sp?) that Dr. Kellon suggested I give Tom as vasodialator for his laminitis treatment. I looked in files and can't find anything. Am I missing it?


Nan Rand

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Re: stained teeth

Helaine Elliott <helaineelliott@...>

I just thought I would throw my two cents worth in here. There is a Thoroughbred horse here who cribs and also teeth scrapes? Scrapes his teeth along the wood. His teeth are discolored like a smokers. Sounds like the enamel wear thing too.


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