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At 10:00 PM +0000 12/13/07, Ellen W wrote:

One side note--I do feed cinnamon to the rest of my herd for one strange reason--I've observed that when I do, it slows down those "tall beavers" from chewing on the trees!!

Interesting! I wonder if it'd have the same effect on wood-chewing?
--

Sandy Su
ssu@zoom-dsl.com

At 10:00 PM +0000 12/13/07, marybeth wrote:

can someone give me some input on these labs. ... acth 18.2(9-35)

So the pergolide is controlling the Cushing's.

insulin 166 (10-40)

High! That may be most of your problem.

t4 0.58 (1.5-4.5)

Low. Maybe get the vet to prescribe Thyro-L?

only change is he was weaned off his thyro-l in early august.

Maybe he should go back on it.

hay is soaked cannot test as it changes all the time,speedibeet 3x day,

You may want to think of any sugar in these that's too high. I hear with some hay that even soaking doesn't bring it low enough. Could you replace the unknown hay with ODTB cubes?

laminasaver,

What's the sugar/starch in that?

accell vit supplement,

What's the sugar/starch in that? If you used the cubes, you could have the minerals balanced and would just need to add a few things. I keep forgetting -- salt, flax, and vitamin E? Check that.

xrays show some sinking ,vet redid labs yesterday will post them. vet says its all in the shoeing and is referring him to mike wildenstein at cornell please answer asap thankyou marybeth

I have the highest regard for Mike Wildenstein. Take your X-rays with you when you take your horse there. That will help him figure out what to do. It'll also save you having to have X-rays at Cornell, if the ones you bring with you are recent.
Do you live near Ithaca? I have a great farrier you might want for follow-up care. He's a Mike Wildenstein clone, I think. I posted him in the list in the Files, but here's his name & number, for convenience: Patrick Klebes (pronounced Kleebs), (716) 870-3764. Mike recommended him to me. He will travel a good distance, so if you're not actually in Ithaca, don't be afraid to phone him and ask if he'd come to you. I think he goes to Syracuse and Rochester, and maybe farther.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@zoom-dsl.com

At 10:00 PM +0000 12/13/07, Claire C. Cox-Wilson wrote:

--- In
<mailto:EquineCushings%40yahoogroups.com>EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com,
"whitehorsebullet"
<whitehorsebullet@...> wrote:
......... What is the

best way to get my minerals balanced. I don't mind paying someone...i
am mathmatically challenged and wouldn't trust myself to get it right.
Thanks,
Ann-Marie, Bullet and Sonny

Ann-Marie
There is a folder in the FILES section with info on hay analysis and a
list of those who can help.

Ann Marie,
You may want to do what I did. I'm math challenged, too, so I
got Dr. K to do it for me and paid her. I think I'd have had a
nervous breakdown trying to do it myself.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@zoom-dsl.com

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "Joan and Dazzle"
<horsies4luv@...> wrote:

Marybeth,

As you see, your insulin level is VERY high. Although I'm not a

vet, I

suspect that is one of the biggest factors in your laminitis. If

this

were Dazzle, I would take her off the Accel. Verify that your E and
Selenium has no grain products in them. Post a sign at the barn

that

says, "NO TREATS".

I don't know if taking your horse off thyro-l would have that big

of an

impact on you insulin levels. My opinion is that your hay is your
problem.

Can you store 3 months worth of hay off on the side and test it?

Can you feed ODBT cubes to help reduce the amount of "unknown" hay

that

you have?

My first guess on this would be that your hay is just too high to

feed.

Without tests, you can't know for sure.

And if the hay is still too high after soaking, you will not get
results as fast as you hope, if at all.

Appropriate trims is critical to help stop the damage that's going

on

within the hoof. But with an insulin level that high, trimming

alone

won't do the trick - in my opinion.

You have to figure out some way to test that hay or get some hay

stored

off on the side to test.

I can store about 3 months of hay for Dazzle. I test all the time.

It's

cheaper than caring for a laminitic horse.

Although we all want the quick fix "add thyro-l", "add
Laminasaver", "add supplement XYZ", the reality is that most times,

the

culprit is the hay.

When I had no place to store 12 bales of hay that I couldn't keep

at

the barn, I put them in my garage.... :)

Think about what your options truly are. I see that you're in

trouble

and without taking strong, firm action, I don't see it getting

better

anytime soon. With a good trim, and low ESC+starch hay, you can

turn

this around - and probably pretty quickly.

If you soak hay that is 15% ESC and 11% starch (total 26%), you can
reduce the ESC up to 30%. That would mean that your soaked hay is

10%

ESC and still 11% starch (total 21%) which could still be too high.

You

can't tell what the sugar content of the hay is by looking at
it. "Crappy" hay isn't always low in sugar. "Lush" looking hay

isn't

always high in sugar.

Do you have boots and pads to make your horse more comfortable? Get

a

trim ASAP. Toes back, heels down.

Joan and Dazzle

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "ford22256" <ford22256@>
wrote:

can someone give me some input on these labs.buddys values on 11

&#92;15&#92;07

vet called because he is having active laminitis. acth 18.2(9-

35)

insulin 166 (10-40) cortisol 4.1(2-6) t4 0.58 (1.5-4.5)

joan what is in the accell that would make you discontinue it? thanks
marybeth

Anna,

Thank you so much for your post! This afternoon I was talking to a
colleague and friend -- Claire Wilson (aka the Witcheylady) and I told
her how passionately I feel about giving horse's variety -- how it
effects the very quality of life. Both of us are constantly sharing
ideas on how to pleasantly surprise our horses with something "new" to
try. This morning I tried Claire's tip of Meadowsweet tea poured over
their low sugar/low starch hay pellets and supplements. Vashka, my
picky Arabian, was pratically purring as he ate it and Sunny gobbled
everything with great gusto. And call me crazy, but I swear Vashka
looked up at me with a thank you in his eyes:)

After all, horses in the wild can sometimes have their pick up hundreds
of herbs on a daily basis. So domestication must be difficult on them
when it comes to restricting their palates.

Lori
www.skodeshorsetreats.com
&
www.naturalhorsejourney.typepad.com

Can we get updated feet photos? Would love to see them.

Oh, absolutely! I'll take some the next time Abby comes out to trim him. I should post some body shots of him too -- the difference between last winter and this is just astounding.

--Shelley


"When you dream it might come true, so when you dream, dream big." (Ryan Shupe)
---------------------------------------------------------
Shelley Wurst (aka "Harvest Mom")
Harvest Moon Farm, West Stafford, CT
---------------------------------------------------------

Hi Everyone, I was thinking about how many people have posted recently about
their horses not wanting to eat their supplements or a different feed. Here
are a couple of things that I thought about that:

1. Food Aversion - we see this a lot in our practice for animals that are
very sick (like kidney or liver failure) or are getting chemo or radiation
treatments for cancer. The animal feels sick or is in pain when they smell
or taste the food and they associate the two and won't eat the food again.
It happens very, very quickly. We recommend that owners offer a different
flavoring at every meal. And, if they find something their pet likes NOT to
give it over and over again. You'll quickly lose that flavor as an option.


We have all most likely fed our horses the same feed, the same hay, the same
treats and the same pastures for 10's of years. Then when they are sick,
feel bad, are in pain, are nauseated or have to take a drug that causes
mental abnormalities in people like pergolide (we don't know if it causes
the same aberrations in horses, but it might) that's when we ask them to eat
something new. They associate feeling bad or strange with the new food and
won't eat it.

2. The horse's instinctual survival mechanism - horse's have an incredibly
strong survival mechanism. In the wild, it is most likely not a good idea
to eat something that tastes strange - it may poison you. And, when horses
worry, they don't usually just worry about getting sick - they think that
they will die. So, they are definitely NOT going to eat something they are
afraid of.

So, one way to trick them into liking something is to take a very small
amount and place it inside a nostril with your fingertip while they are
eating something they like. Then they associate the smell with something
good. It may take a few days to accomplish this but at least you have a
chance of getting them to eat it.

So, I agree with the poster who said that variety is the key. I like to use
Special K cereal as an example of feeding the same thing over an entire
lifespan. If you read the box, it says that a single serving contains 100%
of your daily vitamin and mineral needs. Who can honestly make the leap
from that claim that it would be good for you to eat Special K for every
meal for your entire life, especially if you want to be an athlete?

Anna, Flak, Zippy, Skipper and very soon (this weekend!) Princess
College Station, TX

Hi Sheri -

Here in ND we have the famous Red River Valley - they grow hundreds of thousands of acres of sugar beets here and in the ajoining Minnesota.

The farmers here contract with CRYSTAL SUGAR - it is Crystal Sugar that intern contracts with MidWest Agri commodities for the pulp and other by-products that are produced. I am sure by the train-car load.

This was the second year in a row they had to *PAY* the farmers not to harvest all their beets - 5-10% were left unharvested and plowed under due to the huge crop. There wasn't enough time to process them all before spring when they rot. They are stored in HUGE piles on the ground - OK to be frozen - but once they thaw they rot - and what a smell that is!

We have no shortages here - but don't know how many processing plants there are in the country either.

Melanie
ND

ps - I am not sure I have ever had cane sugar - never bought any - anyhow!

Re: Plea to Nutrena
Posted by: "Sheri Becker" fsmcbic@earthlink.net riccirogue

First the farmers dont grow or make the beetpulp.They grow the sugar beets
..which in turn they sell to companies ( many farmers are probably
contracted by the companies) who extract the sugar and THAT is where our
beetpulp comes from..the byproduct of sugar beets..

It is NOT a straight from the farmer deal.


I am not sure exactly who uses all the sugar
that comes from BP ( most of the sugar we use for things like baking is cane
sugar)


Sheri- in the heart of York co PA Farm Land

Hello,

Me again. My pony (9 H) gets 1/2 ounce of table salt a day. Does he
still need to have a salt block (white).

What about electrolytes when he is working hard? I cannot find one
without sugar.

What brand of Biotin is recommended?

Thank you,

Nikita and Mr.Thelwell

For wrapping legs and keeping anyone else from taking them off....use that old stand by - Duct Tape. You only need a band of it near the top, one near the bottom and unless you have a mini, then one in the middle. Most horses cannot get Duct Tape off. It isn't Velcro, after all.

As for the blankets, sprinkle the spots you think the pest would go after first with hot sauce. The horse wearing the blanket probably won't put their mouth on it, it is on the outside of the blanket so won't irritate their skin, and the pest will get the message. The blanket leaves a nasty taste.

Carlynne Allbee


---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Allison,
Go the Links from the main page. Scroll down to Prescriptions/States that require vets to write script. AZ is one that requires the vet to give you a script if he wants the animal on that drug! Now you are empowered.
http://members.verizon.net/~vze2r6qt/supplies/legal.htm

Mandy and Asher in VA

Does anyone have experience with vets in Tucson,Az familiar with
laminitis, cushings, IR etc and are willing to prescribe pergolide
without doing the dex suppresion test? I swear we are in the dark
ages in this town.

The vet that did my original testing (rhythm) and prescribed
pergolide has left the country for a new job and I am having a
difficult time finding another vet willing to prescribe pergolide
without doing the dex suppresion test or wanting me to buy it
through them at an exorbitant cost.

My current vet wants to charge me $225.00 for a 3 month supply of
pergolide if they will even prescribe it. I was paying about $60
for the liquid and $30 for the powder a month. I could get a better
price thru the "Pet Health Pharmacy" if I could find a vet that
would let me. I don't understand why I can't pick the pharmacy?
Just seems fishy to me.

She has been on it for 5 months now and is doing well But I'm going
to run out in January. My barefoot trimmer is checking her other
clients but I thought I would ask you guys as well.

Thanks
Allison and Circe
Tucson, Az

Shelley -

Can we get updated feet photos? Would love to see them.

Thanks

Nancy C and Beau and Gabe in NH

I'm just about at the point of needing to re-order cinnamon for the
boys-or not? George and Nappi are both Cushings/IR and currently get
cinnamon in their meals. They can take it or leave it. Should I
continue or just phase it out? What's the
consensus?
Lavinia, Nappi and George

hi everyone.

i just moved to south bend indiana one week ago. of course i can not
get the blue seal carb gard here. after working with a local feed
store, the only way i can get the company to ship it here, is to order
a minimum of 80 bags at a time.
soooooo....... is ANYONE in the northern Indiana, southern Michigan,
north-eastern Illinois interested in joining forces and ordering blue
seal carb gard?
val

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, jvining@... wrote:

Hi:

For my peace of mind I syringe my minerals right down
Mister's mouth--I was so tired of watching him eat to see
if he would clean up his beet pulp with the minerals.
And, of course he wouldn't. So, I worried myself to death
because he wasn't getting his minerals he needed. The
other horses would get in his stall and guess what?? THEY
would clean out his tub like it was the best meal on earth!
But NOT Mister! So, I take a 60cc syringe and cut the whole
end off, tip and all, so you have a large hole at the end
(minerals would not go through the small tip that is on it)
and mix with either a small bit 1 1/2 TAB. of unsweetened
applesauce or use water and olive oil. This way I KNOW
he is getting those minerals, salt, Vit. E, etc.
Just a thought!
Julie and Mr. Mister

I'm looking for a ledge high enough to jump off of.......

Keep the ideas coming! I got my custom minerals this week and when

I looked at the scoop size I thought "NO PROBLEM". Boy, was I wrong.
This is how bad it is. My mare Emmy is not IR and is ideal weight
but I put her on the same diet as Copper after my hay was tested for
simplicity. They both get weighed Timothy hay (6.4%) and beet pulp
with the supplements added (salt and vitamin E). They both cleaned
their plates every night. Easy keeper Emmy would lead you to believe
that she is starving if you just watched her clean up every scrap of
anything edible around. So earlier this week I received my custom
minerals and flax. I added half a serving of each based on the
weight of their hay. Neither horse would touch it! So I pulled the
flax thinking two new things was too much. NO Way. Then I added the
minerals (still 1/2 serving) to homemade, no sugar added applesauce.
Still no. The pigs are very happy to get what they don't eat! So
tonight I thought I would add 1/2 cup of cob with molasses to Emmy's
bowl. Still no. If she won't eat that, I'm not sure what to do with
Copper who shouldn't have anything like that. Just thought I would
share before I dive back into the files and try to figure out what I
should try next.

Jodie and Copper (Emmy, too)
Thankfully dry in WA

Harvest Moon wrote:

Butterscoth had sinking too, but now, 10 mos after getting the diet
under control, his feet are "perfect" according to my farrier and my
vet. No sign at all that he'd ever foundered.

I have to say that this is absolutely true. In this particular case, I am the pony's current farrier (though I've only met him recently, another farrier brought him to this point) and I must say that if you didn't know that Butterscotch had been through this, you would NEVER know from looking at him or at his feet. They are textbook beautiful.

-Abby


--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "nunnatsunnega"
<ellen_wright@...> wrote:

One side note--I do feed cinnamon to the rest of my herd for one
strange reason--I've observed that when I do, it slows down
those "tall beavers" from chewing on the trees!!

Fascinating! How much are you feeding? Do you have bloodwork
(glucose/insulin) on your cinnamon eating horses?

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)