Date   

Re: when to euthanize

lindarollins38@...
 

NOT YET!!!!
My horse was diagnosed in Sept. of this year. This group changed his life, in just these few short months. Sure, it takes a little more work, and I can tell you my head spun like Linda Blair in the Exorcist in the first month. I felt like I was drowning in information, and could never sort it all out, but I did, and step by step, as he's gotten better (which is soooo rewarding, to see that my efforts have produced such results!) the "process" has gotten simpler. I was lying awake for weeks on end, worrying about the "what next" and if what I was doing was enough or too much (turns out it was too much) but as I cried, I also read everything in this group, and asked for help, and was stunned at the intelligence, compassion and dedication of the people in this group. Not just friendly, but brilliant. This group is cutting edge, and far more informed about cushings/IR than many, many vets. If I had followed my vet's advice, my horse would probably be in the ground by now. I love my ve
t, but there is more information here than most vet's have time for. Lucky for me, I had a vet that has allowed me to do what I want, and has given me whatever I wanted, when I wanted it!
Looking back, I think the first few days (week) can really be the simplest. Do the diet. Do the blood work. Get he pergolide ASAP. It really is quite cheap from either of those companies. I paid $50 for 3 months at 1 mg/day. Stay connected to this group. And, like they told me when I joined.....breathe. You are in the right place and I agree - your boy just wants some help from you to get better. And he can! He's not ready to go.
We can help. (listen to me, being calm & reassuring....far from the panicked newbie of a few months ago!)
Hang in there.
Linda

I am a member of Rural Area Veterinary Services. See what we do!
www.ruralareavet.org


http://www.sportshorses.com/cases/rollinslinda.Peanut.htm


Re: when to euthanize

Joan and Dazzle
 

Hi Holly,

There are still things that you can do to help your horse. The
reason that we have case histories and detailed explanations about
what's going on is so that we have a better idea of how to help you
help your horse.

Let me brain storm for a few minutes on some of the things you can
do to help your horse.

Pergolide. Get a script from your vet. My vet didn't want to give me
one, but with persistance, he finally did. I order my pergolide from
Vetpet Solutions for $55 for 100 days (includes shipping).

It's winter time. Wrap his legs. His body is very furry, but his
legs are missing muscle, etc that helps keep them warm.

Be sure that your diet is squared away. Low sugar and starch. Test
your hay to be sure. You can't tell the sugar and starch content of
hay by looking at it. "Crappy" hay is not necessarily low in sugar
and starch. "Lush" looking hay is not necessarily high. You can't
tell the content from the outside.

It sounds like you're good with your trim. My suggestion would be to
try the jiaogulan and AAKG. That may make your horse more
comfortable. They also have anti-inflammatory properties.

Get an ACTH, insulin, glucose test done. That way, you know exactly
what you need to target. What breed is he?

What sort of bedding do you have him on? How deep is it?

You report that you have a stifle issue. This could be lots of
things. And could be secondary to something else - like from laying
on that one side all the time, or compensating because he's not
weighting his opposite hoof correctly.

When you visit him, breathe softly and tell him that you love him.

With a cresty neck, addressing the diet is a huge start. Tell us
more about the diet, so that we can see that it's as tight as
possible during this critical time. It takes time. Get him as
comfortable as possible until everything starts to come together.

All the decisions are yours. But there are still things that you can
try that will not break the bank.

Get him more comfortable and his personality will change. Pergolide
is a huge start.

Joan and Dazzle

--- In EquineCushings@..., Brett Kaple <kapleacres@...>
wrote:

Thank you for answering me! I was given a pergolide cost of $65
to $75 a month. I have done all the dietary changes already. I
also trim him correctly, he has not foundered but does have thin
flat soles that get sensetive.
Thanks, Holly


Re: when to euthanize

Abby Nemec
 

Brett Kaple wrote:
Thank you for answering me! I was given a pergolide cost of $65 to $75 a month.
A script from your vet can get you pergolide at either of the following for half that:

pethealthpharmacy.com
vetpetsolutions.com

I have done all the dietary changes already.
With all respect - if you want to run through what he's getting it's likely we can help you be sure there are no holes.


I also trim him correctly, he has not foundered but does have thin flat soles that get sensetive.
We have herbs for that! Hey it may sound wacky, but honestly they WORK.

My only problem is this; today he still has that hot sensetive stifle. Bute makes him colic.
As a rule we're not big fans of bute anyway. There are a couple nutritional things you can use that will be at LEAST as effective. Microlactin, Phyto-Quench, Devil's Claw, and more! Knowing what you're feeding right now will help us to know which way to steer you for pain relief.

You are a friendly bunch.
We try to be! We've all been "put off" at one time or another by the wrong approach, and try so hard to remember that the medium is the message ...

Thank you for not being judgemental!
How could we judge you? We're not there doing what you're doing. It's NEVER easy, even when it's simple!

By the way, there is a reason I called him Firey. His name is Wildfire!
Well, glad we could be here, Holly & Wildfire.

-Abby


--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


Re: when to euthanize

Larson <seahorses3@...>
 

Hi (need name here!) - please know it is not too late. Many, many of us have been in your shoes. When you can, search for "success stories" and it will give you hope and encouragement, which we all need when things get hard. And please know that every response you get from people on this list is sent with care and concern for you and your horse. Some of us may be a bit blunt, but know there is no hurt intended - a lot of us needed that kick in the seat to get us going in the right direction. And yuou might try a more positive and supportive vet - they can be your right hand, or they can drag you down. You will need that right hand.

Carol and Blue in Maine

At 08:32 AM 12/14/2007, you wrote:

This is my first post, and a bit late probably.
but let me know if there
is someone else that has been in my shoes. thanks


Re: Triple Crown Low Starch

Larson <seahorses3@...>
 

Judy, from every vet I've ever known (and that's quite a few), hay is precisely what should be increased in cold weather, for the reasons you cite - it is more work to utilize, ergo more calories expended, and we all know from just mucking out how warm you get expending calories. There are figures on how much to increase, but I will let the feed gurus chime in on that. The tipping temperature (for a horse) to increase, as I recall from a lecture at Tufts Veterinary, is below 20 degrees (wind chill would be a factor in the degree measurement).

Carol and Blue in Maine

At 09:18 AM 12/14/2007, you wrote:

INot sure how the
metabolism of domesticated horses differs if any from wild horses but
cold wet hay sounds like more work to utilize than dry food.
Judy


Re: when to euthanize

Brett Kaple <kapleacres@...>
 

Thank you for answering me! I was given a pergolide cost of $65 to $75 a month. I have done all the dietary changes already. I also trim him correctly, he has not foundered but does have thin flat soles that get sensetive. I am on my way to the vet, I will research pergolide further. My only problem is this; today he still has that hot sensetive stifle. Bute makes him colic. I'll talk to the vet and let you know. You are a friendly bunch. Thank you for not being judgemental! By the way, there is a reason I called him Firey. His name is Wildfire!
Thanks, Holly

----- Original Message ----
From: Abby Bloxsom <dearab@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 9:29:12 AM
Subject: Re: [EquineCushings] when to euthanize

kapleacres wrote:

Please be kind on my decision not to medicate, and I know I could
shut him in a stall and let him live longer. but let me know if there
is someone else that has been in my shoes. thanks
Hi there, and welcome, though I'm so sorry that you have to be here.
You will find that in the huge membership of this list, there are many,
many who have been where you are. Each of us has our own story, some
have chosen to euthanize and some have chosen to treat either with diet
or medication, or both. The choice is as individual and valid for each
of us.

If you're looking for words to tell you when, I can only say "he will
tell you". It sounds really trite for me to say that, but it is
absolutely true. Of course there are times when we as human caregivers
must know that the time is at hand even if the animal is happy and
comfortable as is - those are hardest.

If you're looking for words of hope, support, encouragement to pursue
making life easier and more comfortable for your old fellow, you will
find more than you could possible ever need here. There is always hope
for those who want things to be better. You have options with diet,
management, and medication for even the most devastating effects of
Cushing's, most of which are truly uncomplicated and affordable. The
medication that you're holding off on (pergolide) is VERY effective when
used in a complete treatment plan, and also now REALLY inexpensive.
Starting dose for most horses is well under $30 a month. It used to be
that treating Cushing's was a hit-or-miss proposition, but with current
diet & management techniques list members have brought the success rate
up to a surprisingly high level. Don't want to throw out numbers for
something like this because we really don't have "success" statistics,
but the volume of mail on the list speaks for itself, and it's
overwhelmingly positive.

I myself have a pony that I knew had Cushing's for 4 years before I was
sort of dragged into treating him. He was at death's door in the
deepest of winter, and I needed "to keep him alive til the ground
thawed". I began with the most meager efforts recommended by this list
at the time - truly "to keep him alive" - and he bounced back to the
point that he is still an absolute character in our barn and greets us
every day with a very cute chipper face, now 4 years after I joined this
list. Every time I have questioned whether he had reached his end, I
have pulled yet another trick out of the EC List bag, and brought him
right around again.

In any case, the decision to medicate or not is yours and yours alone.
None of us will judge or criticize you for your choice, but I wanted to
be sure that you received a positive view to counter your vet's concerns
about cost and prognosis. When you post again, could I ask you to sign
your post, and give your horse's name? We're a pretty friendly group,
and like to "know" each other by name.

Again, thanks for stopping in. I hope we can be of help to you on your
journey, wherever it takes you.

-Abby B
list "hoof guru" and
Mom to Tony the Pony (EC) and Elba (IR) and friends

--
************ ********* *****
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsu lting.com




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Re: when to euthanize

kimgedckewagner
 

Hi, and welcome to the list!

As the owner of a 24 year old TWH that I've had since my late teens
and has been my life long companion, I understand what you're going
through. Sometimes it seems like it's easier to think the worst and
protect yourself from the pain, especially given where he is right
now, and the fact that you've finally just reunited and had to deal
with the fact that someone didn't love him as much as you did. I was
at the point of thinking I'd have to euthanize my boy, too, when I
finally found this list.

That was 3 years ago, and I won't say that CG doesn't have his down
days (don't we all?) but he just about popped my back the other day
with a GREAT BIG BUCK as we cantered through the fields :-) The help
you'll find here can and does work.

So, I'm going to be pompous and outspoken and say that neither of you
are truly ready to give up yet. Not when you've just found this list.

Get serious about listing everything you know about your boy on the
history page and through emails. Start the emergency diet. Get the
blood work done. Scan the files for directions and ask us for help.
I'm seriously amazed on a daily basis at the number of people on this
list that dedicate their time and energy to support others, both human
and equine.

Yes, some of this may cost a little more than keeping your average
back yard pasture ornament, but the costs can be controlled, and if
you can manage it, it's worth it. Changing his diet is the easiest
way to start.

Hang in there, and keep asking for help!

Kim & CG


BLUE SEAL CARB GARD

valdavoli <STOMPERX@...>
 

i have just otten off the phone with blue seal and their sister company
kent feeds. they will "try to see wh they can do".

however, it does not appear promising.

BUT: a blue seal dealer is going to call me back with quotes for
shipping the carb gard to indiana.

is anyone interested in joining forces so this will not be so cost
probitive?

val


Re: when to euthanize

Mandy Woods
 

Hey~
Why on earth would you NOT medicate? ITs so available, affordable and it works!
The first thing I would suggest to you is find out what is going on with your childhood friend. You owe him that. The DDT's that we sing about here are simple. Diagnosis is by bloodwork. Diet is low carbohydrate/fat and Trim means a balanced foot, toes backed and heels lowered. Can't get much simpler than that?!
IF you have your vet out for bloodwork, get the endogenous ACTH test. This is a blood pull into a chilled purple top. Do not get the Dex Test. Then, have the vet pull one more tube for gluecose and a thyroid panel. Send these samples to Cornell. There is a file for specifics. Have the tests early in the week in a quiet barn.
Now you can start the Temporary Diet today. Soak his hay! Soaking removes up to 30% sugar from the hay. Get a bag of plain shredded beet pulp and rinse/soak/rinse it to use as a carrier for the vitaminE and minerals. Get him off pasture, any greenies, treats, apples, carrots etc. You need to reduce all the sugars that go in his mouth. In a few days you'll see a change in him! Get a farrier out to trim his feet.
Read the files.
There are many here who will help you. We've been through this! 24 is NOT old today in the equine world. If he's still 'firey' then he's not ready to leave you. He's hurting and his behavior is his only way of telling you that. Your boy has more useful years ahead of him - you can help him and we'll coach you. Will you try it?
IF you enter his history here, we'll be responding.. http://www.sportshorses.com/caseform.htm

Mandy and Asher in VA


Re: when to euthanize

Abby Nemec
 

kapleacres wrote:

Please be kind on my decision not to medicate, and I know I could shut him in a stall and let him live longer. but let me know if there is someone else that has been in my shoes. thanks
Hi there, and welcome, though I'm so sorry that you have to be here. You will find that in the huge membership of this list, there are many, many who have been where you are. Each of us has our own story, some have chosen to euthanize and some have chosen to treat either with diet or medication, or both. The choice is as individual and valid for each of us.

If you're looking for words to tell you when, I can only say "he will tell you". It sounds really trite for me to say that, but it is absolutely true. Of course there are times when we as human caregivers must know that the time is at hand even if the animal is happy and comfortable as is - those are hardest.

If you're looking for words of hope, support, encouragement to pursue making life easier and more comfortable for your old fellow, you will find more than you could possible ever need here. There is always hope for those who want things to be better. You have options with diet, management, and medication for even the most devastating effects of Cushing's, most of which are truly uncomplicated and affordable. The medication that you're holding off on (pergolide) is VERY effective when used in a complete treatment plan, and also now REALLY inexpensive. Starting dose for most horses is well under $30 a month. It used to be that treating Cushing's was a hit-or-miss proposition, but with current diet & management techniques list members have brought the success rate up to a surprisingly high level. Don't want to throw out numbers for something like this because we really don't have "success" statistics, but the volume of mail on the list speaks for itself, and it's overwhelmingly positive.

I myself have a pony that I knew had Cushing's for 4 years before I was sort of dragged into treating him. He was at death's door in the deepest of winter, and I needed "to keep him alive til the ground thawed". I began with the most meager efforts recommended by this list at the time - truly "to keep him alive" - and he bounced back to the point that he is still an absolute character in our barn and greets us every day with a very cute chipper face, now 4 years after I joined this list. Every time I have questioned whether he had reached his end, I have pulled yet another trick out of the EC List bag, and brought him right around again.

In any case, the decision to medicate or not is yours and yours alone. None of us will judge or criticize you for your choice, but I wanted to be sure that you received a positive view to counter your vet's concerns about cost and prognosis. When you post again, could I ask you to sign your post, and give your horse's name? We're a pretty friendly group, and like to "know" each other by name.

Again, thanks for stopping in. I hope we can be of help to you on your journey, wherever it takes you.

-Abby B
list "hoof guru" and
Mom to Tony the Pony (EC) and Elba (IR) and friends




--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


Re: Triple Crown Low Starch

judy abernathy
 

It was my information that TCLow Starch was not low enough NSC numbers for IR horses-I feed TC Safe Starch to my Cushings/IR mare. Last Spring when she was still very "iffy" and had one last bout of laminitiis I eliminated every thing except soaked hay-then slowly introduced TCSS back in. It is very expensive-for me-so don't use as main feed. However since she has been doing well the last 8-9 months and it is is very cold here (Mo) I feed her more TC and also feed OTB cubes. Not sure how the metabolism of domesticated horses differs if any from wild horses but cold wet hay sounds like more work to utilize than dry food.
Judy


when to euthanize

kapleacres <kapleacres@...>
 

This is my first post, and a bit late probably. I will try to keep it
short. I have a 24 year old TWH, who my mother bought when I was
five. When he was 10 he was sold to a trial riding couple and I kept
up with him over the years. two years ago, they were ready to retire
him and I could not get him in the trailer quick enough to get him
home!!! The sad thing is, they didn't tell me he wasn't sound. I
hadn't been on a horse since I was 14, and had no idea what that huge
cresty neck was from. When he got home, he bucked under saddle,
stumbled bad up front, and appeared to have a stifle issue. This was
not the same horse I sold as a kid. To fast foward a couple years, I
gave up on riding him, have read everything I can get my hands on
about cushing's syndrome (especially after that first winter he never
shed out). My vet advised skipping pergolide, she thought he was old
enough and advanced enough that it may be throwing good money after
bad (did I mention he was not a free horse?) Cushing's is not his
only issue.
So here I am in December, it is 30 degrees and my horse is out there
sweating. I clipped a little, but colder weather is coming. Bute
makes him colic, so his stilfle is hot and he kicks me when I touch
it. He's not mean, that was the first time in 24 years I saw him
kick. He is a firey horse, and hates not being ridden. He's getting
very off to himself and grumpy. I know he could live longer with a
little TLC, but I know he won't be happy unless he can run like when
he was 4, and nothing will make him rideable(which is what he wants).
I am thinking of putting him down before all our memories of him are
of the mean old horse that ate our kids or something! Seriously, no
oneloves him more than me, but I'm not good with letting him suffer.
Please be kind on my decision not to medicate, and I know I could
shut him in a stall and let him live longer. but let me know if there
is someone else that has been in my shoes. thanks


Re: grazing muzzle & snow

Yurhunny2@...
 

We got a foot of snow yesterday. Can Peanut forgo the muzzle today -
and for a few days to come? More snow this weekend too.




Though we haven't had too much snow yet here i'm leaving Sparks muzzle on during this winter.? We feed hay out in the fields when there is snow on the ground, and the few flakes that are out there will be gone in seconds when tha muzzle isn't on. So it's easier for me, and better for her if i keep it on to allow for more chewing (working!) time. But i'm not a guru on here, just sending you my thoughts.? Stay Warm!

Amy + Sparkle




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Re: Won't eat supplements/picky eaters

briarskingstonnet <briars@...>
 

For now, bottled water has been added to my 'variety'
list.
This is intresting,Valeree.Have you had any testing done on your water?
I wonder if he's trying to tell you something ?(Oh good.Something more
to test!)

Lorna


grazing muzzle & snow

Linda <lindarollins38@...>
 

We got a foot of snow yesterday. Can Peanut forgo the muzzle today -
and for a few days to come? More snow this weekend too.


Re: when to euthanize

genelegnce@...
 

what is your horses breeding --I have TWH and am seeing cushings in some
lines and IR in others---you need to put him on pergolide--don't quit and what
are his other lameness issues?
with love
carol



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Re: Triple Crown Low Starch

mchambers333@...
 

it is 15 % NSC. I stopped feeding it to my IR horse. But wait to see what
others have to say.

Michelle L. Chambers



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Won't eat supplements/picky eaters

Valeree Smith
 

I was going to pipe down on this subject but really feel I must share today's experience/experiment. If the Hall Monitors will indulge one more comment.......

Last night we had to turn the water off at my barn - horse broke a water line. I usually soak and drain a handful of pellets for the evening ration of supplements. I add water back in to make it mashy (and I've experimented with wet/wetter, dry/drier...). Since we had no faucet water and I didn't want to use water bucket water, I (cleverly of course) took some bottled water out of my car. Soaked in that, drained, and added some back for more moisture. Opted not to add any flavorings -- just leave it as is (tried that before too with no more success). Jokingly commented to myself as I was leaving that it would be just like GD to decide to eat his supplements.

Well.............he did. I found *a* crumb left. We're trying a similar experiment tonight. For now, bottled water has been added to my 'variety' list. This horse has a sense of humor.

(oh, and it's Arrowhead. I'm sure that makes a difference..:-0)


Valeree & GD


Re: Salt Block - Electrolytes - Biotin

Mandy Woods
 

Hey Nikita,
Its ok for Mr. Thelwell to have his own white salt block to lick. It will just be busy work, amusement for him. Horses don't have the tongue to over lick. If he likes to have one let him!

Electrolytes this time of year? Is he sweating that much after a trip? Plain salt should be enough until summertime.

I have used VitaminShoppe and today I ordered some from www.swansonvitamins.com because they are having a 50% off ($3.49)sale until the 15th of December. I get my Vitamin E there too. You just want to try to get as pure a Biotin as you can. I order the 5mg/capsules, open them up and sprinkle on the feed. My bottle says : ingredients, biotin, rice flour, gelatin, water - no yeast, corn, wheat, sugar, salt, soy, dairy, fish, preservatives, artificial colors or flavors. This is by www.VitaminShoppe.com .
Mandy and Asher in VA


Triple Crown Low Starch

Ginger Reid <greid@...>
 

I can't remember, but was Triple Crown Low Starch formula found to be
adequate for a cushings horse? I can't get it where I live, but my feed
store is now making a copy-cat version of it that is very close...third
ingredient in it is beet pulp..and will cost me the same as a bag of
plain beet pulp...

Ginger

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