Date   

Re: Options other than ODTBC TCSS in NC

Mandy Woods
 

Kim,
Can you get Blue Seal Carb Guard? I'd get in touch with Aurelio and see if he cant expidite your order.
Mandy and Asher in VA


Fire

kapleacres <kapleacres@...>
 

I posted pics of my horse in an album called Wildfire, just in case he
looks better/worse than you thought. It is SO muddy here today, so
he's filthy, but you get the idea. He's also not nearly as fat as he
looks, it is mostly hair. You can easily feel every rib on him. Other
than that, just the typical cresty neck and A LOT of muscle wasting.
Holly and Fire


Re: when to euthanize

Barbara <BarbaryPinesMorgans@...>
 

Brett,

You will get lots of great support and suggestions to help you and your horse. I did notice that you said he was bedded on straw. Some horses find that to be quite a delicacy and it is not good for a low carb/sugar diet. Is he boarded or do you care for him at home? Sometimes boarding situations can make controlling diet and environment a little more tricky. The strong smelling, frequent urination will decrease when his condition is controlled. I have a 19 year old gelding who my vet suggested strongly that I put him down because he is a sinker , without even putting up a fight. We are 3 months in to our fight and he improves some everyday and his pain is controlled with herbs instead of bute or bantamine. The low, thin sensitive soles of your guys feet may be a warning of worse things to come with his feet. Correct diet can really help with that and some well meaning vets are not aware of just what the best diet is for these guys. Don't let all that is offered here overwhelm you. Take it in small increments if it starts to be too much. The diet and labs are paramount. I was in your shoes just a short time ago and couldn't see daylight but today is a much better day so don't give up to good fight yet! Your boy will let you know when he has had enough. Where are you located?

Barbara Carlson
Barbary Pines Farm
www.Barbarypinesmorgans.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Brett Kaple
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [EquineCushings] when to euthanize


Thank you for answering me! I was given a pergolide cost of $65 to $75 a month. I have done all the dietary changes already. I also trim him correctly, he has not foundered but does have thin flat soles that get sensetive. I am on my way to the vet, I will research pergolide further. My only problem is this; today he still has that hot sensetive stifle. Bute makes him colic. I'll talk to the vet and let you know. You are a friendly bunch. Thank you for not being judgemental! By the way, there is a reason I called him Firey. His name is Wildfire!
Thanks, Holly


Options other than ODTBC TCSS in NC

kimgedckewagner
 

My supplier has had a mix up in ordering my IR Geldings ODTBC's,
again, and now I'm totally out after waiting 6 weeks for an order
that's not coming.

Anyone in the NC/SC area using other options besides ODTBC's and
Triple Crown Safe Starch?

Thanks,
Kim & CG


Re: when to euthanize

Brett Kaple <kapleacres@...>
 

Wow! I have gotten a lot of replies! Fire is on second cutting timothy/orchard grass. no alfalfa, but a small handful of safechoice at night because everyone else is getting fed! He is a big ole boy, so he has hay in front of him at all times. Probably eats close to 3/4 bale per day. He's the boss, so no one dares take it from him. His belly looks big, but ribs show. He has white salt block and mineral block. Drinks enormous amounts of water (15-20 gallons) per day. Pees a lot and it smells, probably because it is just hard to keep up with! He is bedded in deep straw. I have never seen him lay down before, and he lays down all night now. Not stall bound, door opens to pasture, which is grass free. I am waiting a call from my vet to see if she can get pergolide cheaper for me. As far as his bloodlines; well, we bought him for $50 out of a field of horses when he was 5 months old. Not registered, have no idea. The other issue is stifle, it is
hot today and he kicked me when I rubbed it. Not a glaring limp, though. I quit riding him because he stumbles up front and can't catch himself, maybe ringbone, maybe no good reason at all?!?!
Thanks, Holly and Fire

----- Original Message ----
From: "genelegnce@..." <genelegnce@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 9:17:35 AM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re:when to euthanize

what is your horses breeding --I have TWH and am seeing cushings in some
lines and IR in others---you need to put him on pergolide--don' t quit and what
are his other lameness issues?
with love
carol

************ ********* ********* ********See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food. aol.com/top- rated-recipes? NCID=aoltop00030 000000004)







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Re: Laminitis study with grant funding at New Bolton

equimedsurg <equimedsurg@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., J Amick <happyday23@...> wrote:

I have spoken to Dr. Jim Orisini at New Bolton Equine Center,
Univ.
of
Penna. as he
was given a huge grant to study laminitis. >
They just started a study of Doxycycline in Laminitis treatments.
This
medicine has anti-inflammatory ability already documented and it is a
big Lymes/Anaplasma therapy. We have great results using the 8
minute
elisa testing - Cornell likes it also. Get a positive at 30 days and
not 90 like W. Blot. Did you see the AAEP article on Laminitis after
treatment starting for Lymes?

Keep me posted.

Sincerely,
Dr. Frank K. Reilly


Re: when to euthanize

kathrynandsofie
 

Hi Holly,



I have to say 'ditto' to the comments you have received, I was within 3
days of euthanizing our pasture ornament pony. The information on this
group has helped get this pony running around the paddock with her
bigger friends.



Powdered pergolide on line is quite affordable.



If needed, change his diet...today!



Hang in there



Kathryn

Tipperary Farm



PS. Where are you located? When I first joined this list, there was a
member who lived a couple of miles from me, she was instrumental in
supporting my efforts to save pony's life.



There is probably someone close to you as well.


Re: herbs for flat soled horse

Carol Vincent
 

Abby Bloxsom <dearab@...> wrote:

I also trim him correctly, he has not foundered but does have thin flat soles that get sensetive.
We have herbs for that! Hey it may sound wacky, but honestly they WORK.


ABBY,
What herbs do you recommend for flat soles? I've FINALLY located and connected with a natrual barefoot trimmer and hope to have her come and remove Romka's shoes within the week.... If there are herbs that I can start feeding her that would be great.
Thanks
carol n romka
-





---------------------------------
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Re: Triple Crown Low Starch

5 Pine Ranch
 

When it comes to nutrition for IR and Cushing's horses, we don't "do" close <smile>

TC Low Starch is around 15% sugar/starch - too high for most horses on this list. A guaranteed analysis of the feed store product is the first place to start, including sugar/starch levels, list of ingredients etc.

Beet pulp benefits can't be expressed enough. Glycemic Index is around 1 when served with no molasses. Custom mix about 70 cents per day in most cases (or less!). If feeding safe hay, no more than a handful of soaked beet pulp is needed to add supplements for the horse where TC Low Starch has feed recommendations listed in pounds, not handfuls so is it really more cost effective? Doubtful.

Hay is the single most important part of your horses diet and the first place to start.

Amberlee
www.fivepineranch.com
Please Visit Our Site!


Re: Triple Crown Low Starch

lindarollins38@...
 


Re: Triple Crown Low Starch

5 Pine Ranch
 

----- Original Message -----
From: judy abernathy


Not sure how the metabolism of domesticated horses differs if any from wild horses but cold wet hay sounds like more work to utilize than dry food.
Judy

>>>>>>>>>

It's a great way to get some extra water into your horse. It's a BEST way to give your horse "heat" in the winter, wet or not. The fermentation of fiber in the hind gut of the horse creates heat...the more fiberous feed they can have, the warmer they are. Dips in temperature generally require increases in feed - best for your budget and for the horse is soaked hay, best for your labour might not be <grin>

Here in the frozen north <Canada> I can and do soak hay in the winter.

Amberlee

.


Re: when to euthanize

5 Pine Ranch
 

Hey Holly, welcome to you and Wildfire. Please don't use bute. Bute slows healing and the colic is likely from sensitivity or damage in his gastro-intestinal tract. Try Phyto-Quench at www.uckele.com

The big fat neck is Insulin Resistance which is controlled with Diet. The learning curve is tremendous so hang on for the ride..... The easiest and most effective place to start here is with the Emergency Diet. Please read through it, it was emailed to you when you joined. Any questions, please ask.

Cost of pergolide - available from Pet Health Pharmacy at http://www.pethealthpharmacy.com/
OR
available at Vet Pet Solutions at http://www.vetpetsolutions.com/

Get a script from your vet - failure to shed and his breed makes it a pretty easy diagnosis. The ACTH test would be of benefit after you've started dosing him if you are working within a budget. Start with 1.0 mg pergolide and plan to increase if he's had the disease for awhile. There are miracles that can and do happen with pergolide! If you draw ACTH after 4-6 weeks on pergolide you can measure how effective the dose is.

And your vet is WRONG about treatment with Pergolide - it absolutely does work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Holly, while I know you are considering euthanizing your childhood friend, I also think the fact that you have just joined our list tells us you may still be hopeful that you could find something to help your boy. We may not be able to fix his stifle injury for you BUT you will see massive improvements with your boy through the control of his diet and with pergolide.

And for what it's worth, I'm managing a 38 year old Standardbred horse with Cushing's Disease and he runs and rips around the pasture like a 10 year old. No joke!!! He receives 2 mg pergolide daily and is on a low sugar/starch/fat diet.

If you decide to "give it a try" we'll walk your through each step, we promise!

Amberlee
www.fivepineranch.com
Please Visit Our Site!


Re: when to euthanize

lindarollins38@...
 

NOT YET!!!!
My horse was diagnosed in Sept. of this year. This group changed his life, in just these few short months. Sure, it takes a little more work, and I can tell you my head spun like Linda Blair in the Exorcist in the first month. I felt like I was drowning in information, and could never sort it all out, but I did, and step by step, as he's gotten better (which is soooo rewarding, to see that my efforts have produced such results!) the "process" has gotten simpler. I was lying awake for weeks on end, worrying about the "what next" and if what I was doing was enough or too much (turns out it was too much) but as I cried, I also read everything in this group, and asked for help, and was stunned at the intelligence, compassion and dedication of the people in this group. Not just friendly, but brilliant. This group is cutting edge, and far more informed about cushings/IR than many, many vets. If I had followed my vet's advice, my horse would probably be in the ground by now. I love my ve
t, but there is more information here than most vet's have time for. Lucky for me, I had a vet that has allowed me to do what I want, and has given me whatever I wanted, when I wanted it!
Looking back, I think the first few days (week) can really be the simplest. Do the diet. Do the blood work. Get he pergolide ASAP. It really is quite cheap from either of those companies. I paid $50 for 3 months at 1 mg/day. Stay connected to this group. And, like they told me when I joined.....breathe. You are in the right place and I agree - your boy just wants some help from you to get better. And he can! He's not ready to go.
We can help. (listen to me, being calm & reassuring....far from the panicked newbie of a few months ago!)
Hang in there.
Linda

I am a member of Rural Area Veterinary Services. See what we do!
www.ruralareavet.org


http://www.sportshorses.com/cases/rollinslinda.Peanut.htm


Re: when to euthanize

Joan and Dazzle
 

Hi Holly,

There are still things that you can do to help your horse. The
reason that we have case histories and detailed explanations about
what's going on is so that we have a better idea of how to help you
help your horse.

Let me brain storm for a few minutes on some of the things you can
do to help your horse.

Pergolide. Get a script from your vet. My vet didn't want to give me
one, but with persistance, he finally did. I order my pergolide from
Vetpet Solutions for $55 for 100 days (includes shipping).

It's winter time. Wrap his legs. His body is very furry, but his
legs are missing muscle, etc that helps keep them warm.

Be sure that your diet is squared away. Low sugar and starch. Test
your hay to be sure. You can't tell the sugar and starch content of
hay by looking at it. "Crappy" hay is not necessarily low in sugar
and starch. "Lush" looking hay is not necessarily high. You can't
tell the content from the outside.

It sounds like you're good with your trim. My suggestion would be to
try the jiaogulan and AAKG. That may make your horse more
comfortable. They also have anti-inflammatory properties.

Get an ACTH, insulin, glucose test done. That way, you know exactly
what you need to target. What breed is he?

What sort of bedding do you have him on? How deep is it?

You report that you have a stifle issue. This could be lots of
things. And could be secondary to something else - like from laying
on that one side all the time, or compensating because he's not
weighting his opposite hoof correctly.

When you visit him, breathe softly and tell him that you love him.

With a cresty neck, addressing the diet is a huge start. Tell us
more about the diet, so that we can see that it's as tight as
possible during this critical time. It takes time. Get him as
comfortable as possible until everything starts to come together.

All the decisions are yours. But there are still things that you can
try that will not break the bank.

Get him more comfortable and his personality will change. Pergolide
is a huge start.

Joan and Dazzle

--- In EquineCushings@..., Brett Kaple <kapleacres@...>
wrote:

Thank you for answering me! I was given a pergolide cost of $65
to $75 a month. I have done all the dietary changes already. I
also trim him correctly, he has not foundered but does have thin
flat soles that get sensetive.
Thanks, Holly


Re: when to euthanize

Abby Nemec
 

Brett Kaple wrote:
Thank you for answering me! I was given a pergolide cost of $65 to $75 a month.
A script from your vet can get you pergolide at either of the following for half that:

pethealthpharmacy.com
vetpetsolutions.com

I have done all the dietary changes already.
With all respect - if you want to run through what he's getting it's likely we can help you be sure there are no holes.


I also trim him correctly, he has not foundered but does have thin flat soles that get sensetive.
We have herbs for that! Hey it may sound wacky, but honestly they WORK.

My only problem is this; today he still has that hot sensetive stifle. Bute makes him colic.
As a rule we're not big fans of bute anyway. There are a couple nutritional things you can use that will be at LEAST as effective. Microlactin, Phyto-Quench, Devil's Claw, and more! Knowing what you're feeding right now will help us to know which way to steer you for pain relief.

You are a friendly bunch.
We try to be! We've all been "put off" at one time or another by the wrong approach, and try so hard to remember that the medium is the message ...

Thank you for not being judgemental!
How could we judge you? We're not there doing what you're doing. It's NEVER easy, even when it's simple!

By the way, there is a reason I called him Firey. His name is Wildfire!
Well, glad we could be here, Holly & Wildfire.

-Abby


--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


Re: when to euthanize

Larson <seahorses3@...>
 

Hi (need name here!) - please know it is not too late. Many, many of us have been in your shoes. When you can, search for "success stories" and it will give you hope and encouragement, which we all need when things get hard. And please know that every response you get from people on this list is sent with care and concern for you and your horse. Some of us may be a bit blunt, but know there is no hurt intended - a lot of us needed that kick in the seat to get us going in the right direction. And yuou might try a more positive and supportive vet - they can be your right hand, or they can drag you down. You will need that right hand.

Carol and Blue in Maine

At 08:32 AM 12/14/2007, you wrote:

This is my first post, and a bit late probably.
but let me know if there
is someone else that has been in my shoes. thanks


Re: Triple Crown Low Starch

Larson <seahorses3@...>
 

Judy, from every vet I've ever known (and that's quite a few), hay is precisely what should be increased in cold weather, for the reasons you cite - it is more work to utilize, ergo more calories expended, and we all know from just mucking out how warm you get expending calories. There are figures on how much to increase, but I will let the feed gurus chime in on that. The tipping temperature (for a horse) to increase, as I recall from a lecture at Tufts Veterinary, is below 20 degrees (wind chill would be a factor in the degree measurement).

Carol and Blue in Maine

At 09:18 AM 12/14/2007, you wrote:

INot sure how the
metabolism of domesticated horses differs if any from wild horses but
cold wet hay sounds like more work to utilize than dry food.
Judy


Re: when to euthanize

Brett Kaple <kapleacres@...>
 

Thank you for answering me! I was given a pergolide cost of $65 to $75 a month. I have done all the dietary changes already. I also trim him correctly, he has not foundered but does have thin flat soles that get sensetive. I am on my way to the vet, I will research pergolide further. My only problem is this; today he still has that hot sensetive stifle. Bute makes him colic. I'll talk to the vet and let you know. You are a friendly bunch. Thank you for not being judgemental! By the way, there is a reason I called him Firey. His name is Wildfire!
Thanks, Holly

----- Original Message ----
From: Abby Bloxsom <dearab@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 9:29:12 AM
Subject: Re: [EquineCushings] when to euthanize

kapleacres wrote:

Please be kind on my decision not to medicate, and I know I could
shut him in a stall and let him live longer. but let me know if there
is someone else that has been in my shoes. thanks
Hi there, and welcome, though I'm so sorry that you have to be here.
You will find that in the huge membership of this list, there are many,
many who have been where you are. Each of us has our own story, some
have chosen to euthanize and some have chosen to treat either with diet
or medication, or both. The choice is as individual and valid for each
of us.

If you're looking for words to tell you when, I can only say "he will
tell you". It sounds really trite for me to say that, but it is
absolutely true. Of course there are times when we as human caregivers
must know that the time is at hand even if the animal is happy and
comfortable as is - those are hardest.

If you're looking for words of hope, support, encouragement to pursue
making life easier and more comfortable for your old fellow, you will
find more than you could possible ever need here. There is always hope
for those who want things to be better. You have options with diet,
management, and medication for even the most devastating effects of
Cushing's, most of which are truly uncomplicated and affordable. The
medication that you're holding off on (pergolide) is VERY effective when
used in a complete treatment plan, and also now REALLY inexpensive.
Starting dose for most horses is well under $30 a month. It used to be
that treating Cushing's was a hit-or-miss proposition, but with current
diet & management techniques list members have brought the success rate
up to a surprisingly high level. Don't want to throw out numbers for
something like this because we really don't have "success" statistics,
but the volume of mail on the list speaks for itself, and it's
overwhelmingly positive.

I myself have a pony that I knew had Cushing's for 4 years before I was
sort of dragged into treating him. He was at death's door in the
deepest of winter, and I needed "to keep him alive til the ground
thawed". I began with the most meager efforts recommended by this list
at the time - truly "to keep him alive" - and he bounced back to the
point that he is still an absolute character in our barn and greets us
every day with a very cute chipper face, now 4 years after I joined this
list. Every time I have questioned whether he had reached his end, I
have pulled yet another trick out of the EC List bag, and brought him
right around again.

In any case, the decision to medicate or not is yours and yours alone.
None of us will judge or criticize you for your choice, but I wanted to
be sure that you received a positive view to counter your vet's concerns
about cost and prognosis. When you post again, could I ask you to sign
your post, and give your horse's name? We're a pretty friendly group,
and like to "know" each other by name.

Again, thanks for stopping in. I hope we can be of help to you on your
journey, wherever it takes you.

-Abby B
list "hoof guru" and
Mom to Tony the Pony (EC) and Elba (IR) and friends

--
************ ********* *****
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsu lting.com




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Re: when to euthanize

kimgedckewagner
 

Hi, and welcome to the list!

As the owner of a 24 year old TWH that I've had since my late teens
and has been my life long companion, I understand what you're going
through. Sometimes it seems like it's easier to think the worst and
protect yourself from the pain, especially given where he is right
now, and the fact that you've finally just reunited and had to deal
with the fact that someone didn't love him as much as you did. I was
at the point of thinking I'd have to euthanize my boy, too, when I
finally found this list.

That was 3 years ago, and I won't say that CG doesn't have his down
days (don't we all?) but he just about popped my back the other day
with a GREAT BIG BUCK as we cantered through the fields :-) The help
you'll find here can and does work.

So, I'm going to be pompous and outspoken and say that neither of you
are truly ready to give up yet. Not when you've just found this list.

Get serious about listing everything you know about your boy on the
history page and through emails. Start the emergency diet. Get the
blood work done. Scan the files for directions and ask us for help.
I'm seriously amazed on a daily basis at the number of people on this
list that dedicate their time and energy to support others, both human
and equine.

Yes, some of this may cost a little more than keeping your average
back yard pasture ornament, but the costs can be controlled, and if
you can manage it, it's worth it. Changing his diet is the easiest
way to start.

Hang in there, and keep asking for help!

Kim & CG


BLUE SEAL CARB GARD

valdavoli <STOMPERX@...>
 

i have just otten off the phone with blue seal and their sister company
kent feeds. they will "try to see wh they can do".

however, it does not appear promising.

BUT: a blue seal dealer is going to call me back with quotes for
shipping the carb gard to indiana.

is anyone interested in joining forces so this will not be so cost
probitive?

val

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