Date   

Re: ADM hay replacer

STOMPERX@...
 

oh, i forgot, this analisys is? AFTER the product is made, not each individual product.
? val

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary & Kathy Saucier <gksaucier@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 1:04 pm
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: ADM hay replacer






Val,
We talked briefly about this one last year. Check message archives #76615. Then fast forward to #80476 on 8/31/06. Then starting with Lisa's message #80505 and progress forward through the dialog including 80514, 80517, 80519 and 80523.
Again in April '07 #90551.
I think basically if someone wants to use this feed or at least consider it, they should buy one bag and send in a sample to Equi-analytical. It might help several people out since this topic has come up several times.
I don't quite understand how it can be a hay replacer since it lists soybean hulls and wheat middlings as the first two ingredients. Sounds more like a feed, as a carrier for our supplements of course if you can't use beet pulp. But nothing to compare to Sterrett's, ODTB cubes or TC Safe Starch Forage all of which are a chopped or pelleted hay with the additional nutrients incorporated.
I never was able to get a straight answer when I contacted them. There is a lot of confusion with these feed companies when you ask NSC (old term), sugar and starch. They give you one of the figures and claim it is the whole NSC total. This keeps happening over and over.
I'm hoping Eleanor can get somewhere with her email asking for the ESC, starch, iron, magnesium, etc.
Kathy Saucier







________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com


Re: ADM hay replacer

STOMPERX@...
 

this is what i got talking to one person at ADM, not sure if this helps.....

fiber: 30%
protein 11%
fat 2 1/2 %
calcium .75 minimum, maximum 1.25
phospherous .3%
salt maximum 7.5
copper 30 ppm
selenium .25ppm
zinc 75 ppm
vitamen A 400 IU per pound
starch 6-7%


i think she was reading ingredient label to me.

she was not able to tell me sugar content or NSC.?

this is made with dehydrated alfalfa meal, NOT long stem alfalfa.

due to this being alfalfa meal and not long stem, if your horse is given this as total diet, or majority 80% +, of his diet, most horses get loose stools.? they reccommend that you give our horse at least 1 flake of hay per feeding to reduce the loose stool.

if you buy this in bulk, (by the ton) the formula can be "tweaked" to meet your specific needs.

sorry for not shortening the previous post....
? val

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary & Kathy Saucier <gksaucier@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 1:04 pm
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: ADM hay replacer






Val,
We talked briefly about this one last year. Check message archives #76615. Then fast forward to #80476 on 8/31/06. Then starting with Lisa's message #80505 and progress forward through the dialog including 80514, 80517, 80519 and 80523.
Again in April '07 #90551.
I think basically if someone wants to use this feed or at least consider it, they should buy one bag and send in a sample to Equi-analytical. It might help several people out since this topic has come up several times.
I don't quite understand how it can be a hay replacer since it lists soybean hulls and wheat middlings as the first two ingredients. Sounds more like a feed, as a carrier for our supplements of course if you can't use beet pulp. But nothing to compare to Sterrett's, ODTB cubes or TC Safe Starch Forage all of which are a chopped or pelleted hay with the additional nutrients incorporated.
I never was able to get a straight answer when I contacted them. There is a lot of confusion with these feed companies when you ask NSC (old term), sugar and starch. They give you one of the figures and claim it is the whole NSC total. This keeps happening over and over.
I'm hoping Eleanor can get somewhere with her email asking for the ESC, starch, iron, magnesium, etc.
Kathy Saucier







________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com


Re: No blood for testing - now what?

Suzanne Clothier <clothier@...>
 

Hi
Thank you for the advice. As noted in my original email, one cephalic is thrombosed, and despite clipping and 6-8 sticks, could not get more than 4 mls from the remaining cephalic.

We will add the heat packs as suggested, and have put APF into the mix. Finding boots to fit a donkey - not been successful so far. Donkey hooves are shaped differently.

Dosage on j-herb and/or AAKG and/or ginseng for her??

thanks,
Suzanne & Shrimp


Re: ADM hay replacer

STOMPERX@...
 

Thanks Kathy.

? i think this would be a product to feed only if you could find nothing else?? it does not intill confidence in me as a consumer, to not be able to get the answers.? there seems to be more questions than answers.

if no one is sure about this product, why is it listed on the cushing website as being a safe feed for IR horses?? the fact that it is in the cushing files, almost seems like an endorcement.? when i first saw it on the board, after finding it in "real life", i thought my problems were over.? problem being, no food for my horse.? i got excited.

how much does it cost to send in for testing?? do you just need a small sample, or would i need to send a whole bag?

val

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary & Kathy Saucier <gksaucier@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 1:04 pm
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: ADM hay replacer





________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com


Re: Source for calcium

kellie_wright <kawright@...>
 


How much calcium do you need to add?
4-6gms - 2 different size horses

Can he tolerate alfalfa cubes?
Yes, he can, but alfalfa makes my mare wild (and we don't need help
in that dept...)

Did you check www.uckele.com to see what they can send you for
calcium?

Uckele has a "palatable" calcium supplement (i.e. sugary!) and a
50lb bag of calcium carbonate...I don't want to know what shipping
is on that!


Amberlee
www.fivepineranch.com

Kellie


Re: ADM hay replacer

Saucier Kathy
 

Val,
We talked briefly about this one last year. Check message archives #76615. Then fast forward to #80476 on 8/31/06. Then starting with Lisa's message #80505 and progress forward through the dialog including 80514, 80517, 80519 and 80523.
Again in April '07 #90551.
I think basically if someone wants to use this feed or at least consider it, they should buy one bag and send in a sample to Equi-analytical. It might help several people out since this topic has come up several times.
I don't quite understand how it can be a hay replacer since it lists soybean hulls and wheat middlings as the first two ingredients. Sounds more like a feed, as a carrier for our supplements of course if you can't use beet pulp. But nothing to compare to Sterrett's, ODTB cubes or TC Safe Starch Forage all of which are a chopped or pelleted hay with the additional nutrients incorporated.
I never was able to get a straight answer when I contacted them. There is a lot of confusion with these feed companies when you ask NSC (old term), sugar and starch. They give you one of the figures and claim it is the whole NSC total. This keeps happening over and over.
I'm hoping Eleanor can get somewhere with her email asking for the ESC, starch, iron, magnesium, etc.
Kathy Saucier


Re: Custom Mineral Prices

Cindy Lawbaugh <LAWBARABS@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "briarskingstonnet"
<briars@...> wrote:
Hi Cindy,

I can't answer your main question but just wanted to ask if shipping
is included in your calcs?
I don't know about Uckele,but I know Horsetech has free shipping
within the U.S.
Good point, but I did include Uckele's freight amount, so it would be
an apples-to-apples.

Did you compare the ingredients each company uses,in the event that
Rod's vary from Mike's ,or would they be using exactly the same
ingredients to achieve the analysis you want?
That's the part I don't know. I assume Uckele is using their "Poly"
Zinc, Copper and Manganese, and actually, after calculating the amount
of those I'd feed to achieve the milligrams I need of each (example,
Poly-Copper is 12.5%) the weight of the dose is what I'd expect it to
be: 2.2oz. Horsetech's is 65gms, which is essentially the same.

Here's another question. Of the 2.2oz dose of my custom, 2 ozs of
that is the flax base, and only 0.2 oz are the trace minerals. When
they mix, is it a guaranteed analysis per dose, in other words, is the
mix consistent throughout.

~Cindy


Re: Custom Mineral Prices

briarskingstonnet <briars@...>
 

I've just received quotes from Uckele and Horsetech.

Horsetech is 50% higher;
Hi Cindy,

I can't answer your main question but just wanted to ask if shipping
is included in your calcs?
I don't know about Uckele,but I know Horsetech has free shipping
within the U.S.
Did you compare the ingredients each company uses,in the event that
Rod's vary from Mike's ,or would they be using exactly the same
ingredients to achieve the analysis you want?

Lorna


Re: Acetyl-l-carmitine

Karen <karen@...>
 

I was told 10 grams, about 3.5 teaspoons.
Karen, Chantilly, Tommi and Koko--- In
EquineCushings@..., "papballou" <PapBallou@...> wrote:


---


Which Hay?

jvoutdoorz <jvining@...>
 

I'm getting hay today and need advice. No one responded to my previous
post. Here it is again. Help!

Oh, I think I jinxed myself saying that things were going so well!
Long story short, I don't have much hay storage and I buy hay from a
middle man who gets hay from Eastern Oregon. There was plenty of hay
available from the field/cutting I had tested and a shipment was to
come in this week. Well, the farmer didn't cover it before the rains
and it is all ruined! I have $100 of supplements for this hay for both
Copper and Emmy.

I have two options and need to know which is better. I can re-test
sugar, but not a full panel. Should I get First cutting same field or
same cutting across the street. I know my minerals will no longer be
spot on, but I can't afford to start all over. Thanks for the advice.

Jodie and Copper
WA


Should Skye get ACTH done?

myharleywood
 

Hi Dr. Kellon,
While I'm waiting for the go-ahead to put up Skye's case history,
should I be running a baseline ACTH?

The clinical signs that tipped me off were cresty neck, fat deposit at
the base of the tail and a founder with rotation at somepoint in the
past (She was surrendered back to me last month after being placed for
four years so I do not know exactly when the founder occurred).

She is a 7 y/o QH cross (maybe arab?) - age is not 100% as she was
seized by the SPCA (who I got her from) and they guessed she was a
yearling at a time.

I'm working with the BO on diet but it's pretty good already (thank god
the BO is GREAT).
thanks,
erica & Skye,
Uxbridge ON


Custom Mineral Prices

Cindy Lawbaugh <LAWBARABS@...>
 

I've just received quotes from Uckele and Horsetech.

Horsetech is 50% higher; last year their price was almost double
Uckele's. Perusing the archives, most indications are that the two
are usually very comparible, if not cheaper from Horsetech.

So now of course, I'm paranoid of the large price difference.

My custom mineral is
175 mg Copper
500 mg Zinc
430 mg Manganese
in a 2 oz flax base.

Uckele's comes to 31c/day, Horsetech's is 47c/day.

Is there something you have to specifically tell Uckele that I may
have neglected?

I'm supplementing Mg/Ox separately, and the great news for me (and my
picky-eaters), is I don't have to supplement Phosphorous this year!

Thank You!
Cindy


Re: Baseline

Mandy Woods
 

Hey Nikita,
To diagnosis IR you want insulin and glucose from the same draw. Do not fast Mr. Thelwell, feed him just hay (low nsc or soaked) no grain or grass! Two or 3 hours after breakfast would be ideal. We check the GI ratio and RISQI.

The values will give you a baseline. Be sure to chart the temperature, time of day of the pull and anything else pertinent to him. Take a photo of him too.

Mandy and Asher in VA


L-Lysine or L-LysineHCL?

tomtriv <Lee_Skee@...>
 

Hi all,
Just want to check that I have the correct type of Lysine. I got 1
kg of Monohydrochloride 95% Feed Grade for $10 at a local feed store
that makes up pig feed.

The guaranteed analysis is:
L-Lysine (minimum) 78.8%
Moisture (maximum) 1.5%

The bag says it is Manufactured in the USA by Archer Daniels Midland
Co.
Decatur, IL.
I intend to feed Dawn 10 mg/day. A kilo will last a pretty long time
so, are there any storage needs I should know about? I thought I
read somewhere that it should be kept dry?

-LeeAnne
Newmarket, Ontario
Case History:
http://www.sportshorses.com/cases/tomtriv.WimpleoDawnLight.htm
Photos:
http://pets.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/browse/682a


Re: Gelding with IR-sore feet again!

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "marysutliff" <marysutliff@...>
wrote:
Dr. Kellon, do you think Daz would benefit from the J-herb and/or
AAFG? I will be sending you our last hay analyais to have a new
mineral supplement formula.
Yes, try him on J + AAKG. Be sure to use my new gmail address when you
send your hay analysis.

Eleanor


Re: Antiflam for pain for Chantilly

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Karen" <karen@...> wrote:

Has anyone tried this product. I have heard very good reports on
it.
Is it OK for IR horses?
No contraindications I could find.

Eleanor


Equine Medical & Surgical Assoc.

equimedsurg <equimedsurg@...>
 

Dear Dr. Kellon:

Regarding G:I ratio - we both agree on glucose is normal in Insulin
Resistance and both agree Glucose, by itself, tells little. Using
Glucose normal range of 75-117 mg/dl via Cornell, I want to
demonstrate a point. Imagine an insulin value and see what happens
to the ratio as you make it: 80:I, 90:I, 100:I, 110:I. All Glucose
levels are normal but the ratios change. Giving Glucose heavy weight
in a ratio is where we differ. In a another test, 30 days later, I
don't worry if my Glucose went from 80 to 90, as long as my Insulin
is dropping.

In a ratio, my Glucose could change 20 points and my Insulin drop 20
points and it would show no progress. I believe Glucose in the
normal range and lowering Insulin means progress.

We have had multiple horses drop hundreds of points in a month - both
Cornell and Antech tests show this can be done.

We both agree fasting a horse is not correct and would miss cases.
We both agree expensive oral Glucose university tests (at least 12
blood samples) is also not practical.

Sincerely,
Dr. Frank K. Reilly
equinemedsurg.com


Re: Source for calcium

5 Pine Ranch
 

How much calcium do you need to add? Can he tolerate alfalfa cubes? Did you check www.uckele.com to see what they can send you for calcium? Do run past us the source of the mineral before you buy though since some are heavily contaminated with iron.

Amberlee
www.fivepineranch.com
Please Visit Our Site!


Re: Acetyl-l-carmitine

papballou <PapBallou@...>
 


I'm sure Dr K will post, but after I read her article, I wrote down
10 gms per day for future reference.

Linda
PS - It's acetyl-l-carnitine, with an *n* not *m*...


Re: Acetyl-l-carmitine

papballou <PapBallou@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., n rand <nantomluna@...> wrote:

What doseage should I be using when I try it out this weekend?

Nan
Thomas
IL

I'm sure Dr K will post, but after I read her article, I wrote down
10 gms per day for future reference.

Linda

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