Date   

Re: availability of Sterret Pellets & ODBalanced Cubes in Santa Fe

Deb Platt
 

Welcome to NM.

Unable to get either here, unless you ship in a pallet full for yourself.
Deb P in NM

maragreymare <maragreymare@...> wrote:
I am seriously considering a move to Santa Fe & am concerned about the availability of
the Sterret Pellets or alternatvely the Ontario Dehy Baldnced Cubes in Santa Fe, New
Mexico. Does anyone know?

Thanks,
Mara & Ally


source for stabilized flax

horsecorrect <horsecorrect@...>
 

My goal is to balance a beet pulp/ODTBC diet. I see that I need
stabilized flax and monosodium phosphate. Other posts indicate
horsetech.com but their flax does not say that it is stabilized.
Perhaps I'm just missing something? Horseshine was mentioned, too, but
I'll have to check on the amount to add. If someone has time, help
would be appreciated.

I'm making progress in refining my two horses' diets...one Cushing's
and one IR. This group is just the BEST. Thank you to all who take the
time to contribute to helping.

Denise


Re: availability of Sterret Pellets & ODBalanced Cubes in Santa Fe

5 Pine Ranch
 

Mara and Ally, best is to contact both feed companies directly and ask
about availability in the new area. Both Linda and Aurelio are awesome
at trying to work things out for this.

Amberlee


was begging/ now back on topic.

valdavoli <STOMPERX@...>
 

hello again.

not sure if my last update went through. but my guy colicked on
christmas day. my new barn fell through the next day, and my trailer
person wanted to committ highway robbery to move him.

i am making progress once again. i have found another barn and
trailer. i am moving my guy on sunday dec 30. (i HOPE!! nobody
better cancel) with this colic, i feel it is urgent that i move him
NOW. maybe i am being overdramatic, but i fear they will kill my guy
feeding this way. aside from the feeding, he just is not happy. the
new barn appears to be a good location. i won't know till we get
there.

i have found a potential source for ODTC.

Cindy and Syndiego:
your guy Dave, at Most Feeds and Garden: simply AWESOME!!! he
hooked me up with a store that is about 45 minutes away. only
problem, is this store only gets an order in every two months. they
are going to try to get my initial order in on the next truck, but i
may have to wait. they do not know when next truck comes, only that
it is "soon".

so, questions?

given his compromised health/feet. i do not want to make an abrupt
feed change when i get the ODTC. (again, i am only ASSUMING i get
the ODTC in the next two weeks)

would this be appropriate feed scenario?

i need to lessen his BSCG anyway, he has gained weight at this
barn. but:
keep his "regular" ration of BSCG, and start substituting a small
portion of his hay with ODTC? OR:
start by substituting the ODTC for the BSCG? and keep hay the same?

if he does well while changing to the ODTC, is it
acceptable/appropriate to also keep him on the BSCG until the blue
seal runs out?

there are a lot of small things to consider:
new barn: he will not have as much turnout. he will be in heated
barn, so he will not need as much feed to help maintain body weight.
etc, etc, etc... all little things adding up to the bigger picture.

when i finally get the ODTC, do i stop the separate supliments i have
him on? i think i had them listed in my case file, if not i will post
them. i do not want to double his sups by mistake.

i am preparing myself for worse case: that he simply does not bounce
back from this whole mess, and the new barn/feed changes will
ultimately be the final straw.
but i am praying for the best: that he will be well on his way to
recovering in a couple months.
val


Possible Ration Plus Substitute?

tomtriv <Lee_Skee@...>
 

Hi all
Thanks everyone for your generous help over the past few months.
Dawn is finally all the extras recommended: Rainey Farms ginseng,
Ration Plus (been on it for about a week so far) and Lysine. She
is putting on fat over her ribs again even though the weight tape
still reads 943. Her muzzle is as closed as possible for her
situation and her beet pulp is r/s/r so the only molasses she gets is
what is in the Ration Plus. Dawn still drinks and pees a fair amount
but I think not as excessively - even though I am mucking her stall
almost every day it is impossible to monitor this super closely due
to variations in barn routine. The pergolide has been switched to
capsules at a dose of 3 mg/day. She seems better and perhaps can
start being ridden soon. Updated pictures are posted (link in
signature). Interestingly I have seen no evidence of arthritis in her
hock this year. Could this be because of the ginseng? (I haven't
ridden her since the middle of October as she just wasn't doing that
well.)

As we are now out of the fall seasonal rise and the ginseng and
Ration Plus are pretty expensive does Dawn need to have them all year
round? If she needs them, and if I have the $, I'll continue to get
them but at about $1 per day each, if she doesn't need them, I could
really use the $ elsewhere. The Lysine is cheap enough so if she
should be getting that year round(?) I can do that easily.

The Ration Plus costs around $50 per bottle ($28 for bottle and $17
for shipping from the U.S.) The only Canadian dealer I could find is
actually more expensive even though shipping was estimated to be
$10. However, a Canadian company that makes a probiotic for horses
has offered to sell me the individual active ingredients that go into
Ration Plus but I am unsure what is specifically needed and/or which
form is most beneficial. Ration Plus has Liquid lactobacillus
acidophilus fermentation product, calcium proprionate, sodium
benzoate and phosphoric acid as a preservative. The Canadian company
uses Bacillus subtillis (fermented extract dehydrated, Lactobacillus
(dehydrated) and Bacillus linchenformis (dehydrated). Would these
be of any use to me or should I just stick with Ration Plus? I'd
have to ask if they'd be able to get the liquid lactobacillus
acidophilus fermentation product but I wanted to check with the list
before asking.
-LeeAnne
Newmarket, Ontario
Case History:
http://www.sportshorses.com/cases/tomtriv.WimpleoDawnLight.htm
Photos:
http://pets.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/browse/682a
Muzzle Photos:
http://pets.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/browse/d6a2


Re: Quick OT note on knee braces/wraps

jarrahbrearebreazebridie
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., repete134@... wrote:

What is the reason behind wrapping the legs and keeping them warm?
Is this
just for Cushings horses? I thought the cold was good for
laminitis?
Paula

Yes, if this is laminitis and the horse got into some oats that
caused the problem and the laminitis is set off due to a grain over
load. Although vets can and do prescribe medications for
dialators/vasilators for the more severe cases when this happens.
This is also recommended on the list. However this is not quite the
same thing with WINTER LAMINITIS for I.R Cushing's equines and or
complicated pain issues brought on or increased with the cold.
Different causation at work. The wrappings and coats with boots is
for reducing cold-related foot pain for winter laminitis. The reason
this occurs for I.R and or Cushing's equines is the reduce nitrix
oxide support with these condition and or damage to the hoofs by way
of reduced blood supply that is complicated by the cold. Nitric oxide
support production is reduced in these equines. The normal cold-
triggered vasoconstriction causes critical underperfusion of the feet
in horses that have pre-existing vascular damage or baseline poor
perfusion related to their metabolic conditions. It is also
recommended with the leg wrappings and coats to utilize AAKG and or
J herb ( Jiaogulan). These are used in conjunction with adaptogenic
herbs that have varying levels of Nitic Oxide support combined with a
diet and metabolic control. This also helps for support of new hoof
growth in recovering severely foundered horses.
Angela
jarrahbrearebreazebridie


Re: Quick OT note on knee braces/wraps

papballou <PapBallou@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., repete134@... wrote:

What is the reason behind wrapping the legs and keeping them warm?
Hi Paula -

The comment yesterday about knee braces was for horses that were
arthritic in their knees (carpus)...not specifically for laminitis.
However, for those horses that develop winter/cold laminitis, wrapping
the legs/shipping boots, etc, is one of the recommendations to try to
alleviate the effects of cold.

Linda


Re: Newly diagnosed

jarrahbrearebreazebridie
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "lloydequestrian"
<lloydequestrian@...> wrote:

My 4 year old Morgan gelding was diganosed this morning as insulin
resistant. The last 6 months his daily diet has been grass/alfalfa
hay (soaked) and a mash of beet pulp, senior feed, whole oats, rice
bran, clovite and a weight builder. Any suggestions on a new diet??
Any help


Hi Jamie
Welcome to the group! Our files are packed with new information that
you can read and learn lots concerning I.R. The list philosophy is
DDT/E. Diagnosis by bloodwork, Diet being low carbohyrdate/fat and
Trim a balanced foot, and exercise when horse is able.
Have you had bloodwork done on your Morgan insulin,glucose tests or
was the diagnosis by clinical observation. If blood work post untits
and reference values and if clinical can you give us some information
on how the this came about and what are your concerns?
For now I would follow the emergancy diet and cut out the grass,
senior feed, whole oats and rice bran. We recommend flax instead of
the rice bran as the fat content is very high for I.R equines same
with the other feeds. Some horse who are I.R can tolerate some
Alfalfa others can not. In the files are some low s/s feeds and hay
cubes for suggestions. The beet pupl is excellent provided the
molasses is r/s/r/ rinsed, soaked, rinced until the water runs clean
or purchased non-molassed beet pulp. We treat per diagnosis.
Medication for Cushings gold standard is Pergolide and Diet for IR.
It is not to hard once you get the hang of it. When you joined you
would of recieved temporary emergency diet and it works because it is
VERY LOW sugar/starch. No grass until you know what the tolerance
level is for your gelding. Some I.R equines can never eat grass or
Alfalfa again. Have a read at www.safergrass.org to see how dangerous
grass is this time of year. When the case histories are back up and
running fill one in for us all, this enables us to efficiently help
you located at
http://www.sportshorses.com/caseform.htm
Diagnosis: We deal with primarily two different metabolic disorders
on this list. The first is Cushings disease, which is a pituitary
adenoma. This is treated with drugs, the norm is Pergolide
The second disorder is insulin resistance or I.R. This is
treated with diet LOW S/S/ and exercise if and when your horse is
able.

Diet: We recommend a low sugar/starch diet. This means no cookies,
no carrots, no treats or grrains or senior feed. These are all high
s/s/ and often molasses and usually iron. If you don't
know the sugar and starch content, we recommend soaking your hay to
reduce the sugars. One hour cold water and thirty minutes hot water
to leach out as much s/s/ starch as possible. Try the temp emergency
diet until you can have your hay tested and can organize the correct
minerals to balance diet and know s/s in the hay.

We recommend that you weigh her hay. It's important that you do not
try to starve your horse to lose weight as it is counter productive
to I.R. Feed at 1.5% to 2% of ideal body weight.
Walmart sells fish scales that you can easily weigh your hay with.
They also carry the Vitamin E Human gelcaps and you need some flax
and salt. Table salt is fine. Trim: It's important to have a good
trim - heels down, toes back.The hoof gurus can jump in for more
information if you post picts for advice.

The care and prognosis for horses that are cushings and/or insulin
resistant is a lot different from years ago. We've come a long way
in our understanding on how to care for and treat our horses.
Help yourself to the files read lots learn lots and fire away with
questions.
Angela
jarrahbrearebreazebridie


Re: Newly diagnosed

Joan and Dazzle
 

Hi Jamie,

Welcome to the group. You've certainly come to the right place. There
are tons of people to help. And this list is cutting edge with regards
to metabolic issues in horses - both Cushings and Insulin Resistance.

As you probably realized by now, insulin resistance is controlled by
diet. Some horses are more likely to be insulin resistant than others.

Our list philosophy are the DDTEs - diagnosis, low sugar/starch/fat
diet, hoof trim, and exercise if your horse is able.

We're glad you're here. It sounds like your vet is really on the ball
to get the diagnosis of insulin resistance. Did you have blood work
done to confirm this diagnosis? The bloodwork that we recommend is a
glucose and insulin test from the same blood draw. This will tell you
where you are and when you test periodically, it tells you how
successful you are with the diet plan that you are using.

Is your boy currently laminitic? I'm assuming not. If he is, you'll
have to jump straight to the emergency diet that was emailed to you
when you joined.

Let's jump straight into dietary concerns. We suggest a diet low in
sugar, starch, and fat. This means that you need to review every
single thing that goes into his mouth.

First, you have to know how much hay you're feeding him. Is he a
little overweight? On an orchard alfalfa mix, you probably do not want
to free feed him. How tall is he? How much does he weigh? You will
want to feed 1.5-2% of his ideal weight. If he's overweight, you will
want to feed 1.5% of his current weight or 2% of his ideal weight,
whichever is greater.

You will need to get a scale to weigh his hay. Walmart sells fish
scales that will work. We can help you determine the amount that he
should be eating every day. You don't ever want to put your horse on a
starvation diet to lose weight. Fat will be mobilized from the cells
for energy, resulting in hyperlipemia. This is very dangerous for a
horse.

It's good that you soak the hay. You need to be sure that you soak it
for either 1/2 hour in hot water, or 1 hour in cold water. That can
reduce the sugars up to 30%. Do you also pour out the water someplace
where he can't get to it? The water will have a lot of sugar in it,
which some horses think tastes great. But if they drink the water with
the sugar, you've defeated the whole purpose for soaking.

Can you get your hay tested to know exactly what's in it? That way,
you will know the sugar and starch content of the hay. We recommend
hay that is less than 10% sugar and starch. That's low, but we've
found that horses usually do better on the lower sugar/starch hay.

Beet pulp. We like beet pulp here. But it has to be the kind without
molasses. Then, you need to rinse/soak/rinse until the beet pulp water
comes out clean. Otherwise, you will have too much sugar still in it.

The senior feed usually isn't appropriate for insulin resistant
horses. The sugar and starch content is just too high. I'd eliminate
this from his diet.

Whole oats. Is he at work? What's his body condition score? Oats are
also high in sugar and starch. I would eliminate this until you have
his insulin resistance under control.

Rice bran. You will want to eliminate this and add ground flax seed to
his diet instead. Flax seed is high in omega 3s, which are very anti-
inflammatory. You will want to feed 2 oz daily. High levels of fat
tend to make the insulin resistance not come under control. Rice bran
has high fat levels.

Clovite. Clovite is also high in fats. You will want to eliminate this
also.

I don't know what weight builder you're using. So I can't comment on
that.

Additionally, you will want to eliminate all treats that are over 10%
sugar/starch. This means no carrots, no cookies, no Mrs. Pastures. Dr.
Kellon has said many times, horses don't need treats. That one is a
hard one for me. I've been very lucky to find a couple of places that
have low sugar starch treats. Skodes is one of them. I also found an
alfalfa treat that I've tested that is fairly low. Most treats are not.

You will want to be sure to feed him iodized salt, and add vitamin e
gel caps. The liquid is better utilized by the body. The powder is not
as effective.

So, that would be my suggestions until you get your hay tested. Then,
you can add minerals that are necessary.

Help yourself to the files. There is a ton of information. Once you
get used to a new routine, it's really not that hard.

Just ask if you have more questions.

Joan and Dazzle




--- In EquineCushings@..., "lloydequestrian"
<lloydequestrian@...> wrote:

The last 6 months his daily diet has been grass/alfalfa hay
(soaked) and a mash of beet pulp, senior feed, whole oats, rice
bran,
clovite and a weight builder. Any suggestions on a new diet??


Re: Remission-was Questions????????

Claire C. Cox-Wilson <shotgun.ranch@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Erin R." <figure1789@...> wrote:

Re: Magnesium Supplement
Here's a supplement that has the magnesium and the chromium used for IR
horses. It's called "Remission," and labeled for laminitic horses. My
horse has not foundered, but I use the product for his IR. .........
About Remission,
unless your soil is deficient in chromium, it is really not
recommended. See Dr. Kellon's post #95616.
Claire from Az


Re: Hilton Herballs

Claire C. Cox-Wilson <shotgun.ranch@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Joan and Dazzle"
<horsies4luv@...> wrote:

Hi Ethlyn,

I've just heard about them today. They are made from alfalfa, wheat
flour and linseed meal, mixed with garlic, mint, oregano, and
rosemary. I don't know what their ESC+ starch content
is...........I'd want to see a test done on them before feeding them
to my
little IR princess.

Joan and Dazzle

I totally agree with Joan. I believe dried herbs in themselves are
safe for IR horses, but they must be using something as a binder (to
keep them together) ...molasses perhaps?
For my peace of mind, I prefer to play it safe and go with something
like Skode's Horse Treats that guarantee a NSC below 10%.
JMHO
Claire from AZ


Newly diagnosed

lloydequestrian <lloydequestrian@...>
 

My 4 year old Morgan gelding was diganosed this morning as insulin
resistant. My vet suggested this group, so here I am! I'm in need of a
new diet. The last 6 months his daily diet has been grass/alfalfa hay
(soaked) and a mash of beet pulp, senior feed, whole oats, rice bran,
clovite and a weight builder. Any suggestions on a new diet?? Any help
would be greatly appreciated. Thanks...Jamie


Northern Illinois Feed Dealer

shabbonawoman
 

Midland Crossing, Newark, IL opened in April. They are trying to be
open to the needs of their customers; have been trying different brands
and are willing to listen to the needs of their customers. Their
advertising hasn't been that great. They do carry TCSSF but for lack of
interest in the TC brand, it is being removed in favor of Purina.

I talked to Amy today. Her husband is an animal nutritionist and they
test their hay and balance minerals for their livestock. She was
unaware of the potential of selling small amounts to fill our needs or
the market for IR/Cushing horses.

Midland Crossing is located north of Interstate 80 between Joliet and
Ottawa. If anyone is needing TCSSF or need quantities of ODTB or other
brands, please contact Tara or Amy at 815-695-1130.

Cheryl


Re: Questions????????

Erin R. <figure1789@...>
 

Re: Magnesium Supplement
Here's a supplement that has the magnesium and the chromium used for IR
horses. It's called "Remission," and labeled for laminitic horses. My
horse has not foundered, but I use the product for his IR. (Have been using
it for about 2-3 weeks and his gutter butt is already gone.)

The price is pretty affordable. Here's the link:
http://www.horseloverz.com/Remission-Horse-Supplement-4-Pounds-pr-237816.html

Erin and Nick, Ohio


Re: Quick OT note on knee braces/wraps

repete134
 

What is the reason behind wrapping the legs and keeping them warm? Is this
just for Cushings horses? I thought the cold was good for laminitis?


Paula


**************************************
See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


Hilton Herballs

Joan and Dazzle
 

Hi Ethlyn,

I've just heard about them today. They are made from alfalfa, wheat
flour and linseed meal, mixed with garlic, mint, oregano, and
rosemary. I don't know what their ESC+ starch content is. I looked
up wheat in Dairy One's forage library
Wheat = 67% NSC
Wheat bran = 30.8% nsc
Wheat midds = 34.4% nsc

So, although I saw them and thought the description sounded pretty
good, I'd want to see a test done on them before feeding them to my
little IR princess.

Joan and Dazzle


--- In EquineCushings@..., "Ethlyn Vogler" <evogler@...>
wrote:

Hello, Group! I wanted to check in to alert you to a new treat
that I found (new to me anyway)--Hilton Herballs--they're just herbs
in nice little balls (about the size of a walnut) with no sugar, and
the horses like them very, very much!


Re: What is the difference between coastal bermuda and say california bermuda hay?

Joan and Dazzle
 

Hi cindfilou,

Do you have a name that we can call you by? It helps us keep track
of who's who...

Welcome to the group. Boy, it sounds like you sure have your hands
full!

Our list philosophy is DDTEs - diagnosis, low sugar/starch/fat diet,
Trim, and Exercise if they're able.

To really know what's going on, it would be a good idea to test your
horse. You will want a glucose and insulin test from the same blood
draw. We have information in the files that you can print out for
your vet. There is special handling that the vet must be aware of.
Many people on the list have their testing done at Cornell.

It seems like you have a little sticking point on the diet. You
can't know the sugar and starch content of hay just by looking at
it. Bermuda grass can be low in ESC + starch, or not. There are many
things that can stress grass to make it raise it's sugars. Oat hay
frequently is higher in sugars, but again, you won't know until you
test. The hard part is that sometimes the sugar and starch is so
high, that you can't soak enough sugar out of it to make it safe.
The only way to know for sure is to have your hay tested. Many
extension offices have a hay corer that you can borrow. Many of us
on the list use Equi-Analytical for their testing. You would want
the Trainer #603. It's good that you are soaking the hay.

You may also want to increase the amount of r/s/r beet pulp in his
diet. That's really low in sugar and will help the overall sugar
number be lower.

As you know, good farrier care is critical. I'm sure the hoof gurus
will hop in to comment on it.

It sounds like you're on the right track. If I were in your shoes,
the first thing I'd do is test the hay. That way, you'll know
exactly what you're feeding and the risk involved. You will also be
able to see what the mineral imbalances are in the feed and if
that's causing you any problems either.

Glad you're here. I hope that you'll get a case history up when
they're working again.

Joan and Dazzle

--- In EquineCushings@..., "cindfilou" <cpowell2@...>
wrote:

I thought that the bermuda hay was lower in general, in NSC
content ,that most others. What is the difference between coastal
bermuda and california bermuda? I am new to this and trying to
figure
this out. My horse has not been diagnosed with anything yet.


Re: Questions????????

Joan and Dazzle
 

Hi Joyce,

Welcome to the group. If you've been reading for awhile, you will
notice that we frequently talk about the DDTEs - diagnosis, low
sugar/starch/fat diet, trim, and exercise if your mare is able.

Many people who get to this site have horses that are in trouble.
You are very lucky to be here proactively.

Magnesium is suggested in the emergency diet. The emergency diet is
just that - what you do in an emergency. For long term care of a
horse that is Cushings or Insulin Resistant, we recommend balancing
your hay. It's really not as hard as it seems. You core your hay,
send it to the testing laboratory, get the results, have the hay
gurus help to balance it.

The goal of balancing your hay is to give your horses what they need
and leave out the things they don't need. So, if you KNOW that your
hay is not deficient in magnesium, then you do not supplement it.
You only give what your hay is missing.

Many people have magnesium deficient hay. Mine is not. But, I need
more copper and zinc, which Miss Dazzle just hates. She gets it
syringed because she refuses to eat it in her bucket.

MagOx from the feed store is more palatable than Epsom Salts. Many
people who cannot get the Mag Ox from their local feed store order
smaller quantities from www.uckele.com - they sell it in a small
container. But, if your hay is NOT magnesium deficient, you don't
even need it.

The question of whether IR is an inherited trait is still up in the
air. There are inferences in some studies that it might be. But I
liken this to insulin resistance in humans. Just because you may
have the genetics for a particular disease does not always mean that
you will have it. Behavior and choices go a long way in how a
disease is expressed.

Dazzle is an Arab. I've had to learn a new method of horsekeeping
than what I had practiced before. I now have to weigh her hay daily.
I also have to test her hay before I buy it and feed it. I live in
town and test every 3 months, rebalancing my minerals to my hay
every time. I only feed low sugar cookies. When I first started, I
was overwhelmed by the whole process. It took me months to wrap my
head around it. But I look at my little princess now. It's
definitely worth it. And, I have the tools and the skills to help
her for years into the future.

I can't really say about the effects of pregnancy on an IR horse.
This is outside of my realm. Maybe someone else can jump in here
about that.

We're glad you're here now. It's always such a heartbreak when
people are here and their horses are laminitic. Read more in the
files, ask more questions. When our case histories are back up, you
may want to post case history informationm, so that we can better
help you with a long term plan.

Joan and Dazzle



--- In EquineCushings@..., "Ronald & Joyce Williams"
<dustoff_farm@...> wrote:

1. Is a magnesium supplement needed if local hay is not magnesium
deficient?

3. Is IR an inheritable trait or a disease/condition?


(No subject)

Ethlyn Vogler
 

Hello, Group! I wanted to check in to alert you to a new treat that I found (new to me anyway)--Hilton Herballs--they're just herbs in nice little balls (about the size of a walnut) with no sugar, and the horses like them very, very much!

Ethlyn


availability of Sterret Pellets & ODBalanced Cubes in Santa Fe

maragreymare
 

I am seriously considering a move to Santa Fe & am concerned about the availability of
the Sterret Pellets or alternatvely the Ontario Dehy Baldnced Cubes in Santa Fe, New
Mexico. Does anyone know?

Thanks,
Mara & Ally

181581 - 181600 of 282357