Re: source for stabilized flax

horsecorrect <horsecorrect@...>

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Kathleen Gustafson"
<katmando@...> wrote:

--- In EquineCushings@..., "horsecorrect"
<horsecorrect@> wrote:

My goal is to balance a beet pulp/ODTBC diet. I see that I need
stabilized flax and monosodium phosphate.
HorseTech's NutraFlax is ground, stabilized flax. Order it without
added calcium as it's high in phosphorus already and it appears you
need some. You can get monosodium phosphate from I like
Equi-Phos as it's more palatable.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
Thanks, Kathleen. All of this scurrying around is perhaps rushing a
bit. I should be getting my hay analysis back shortly. Hay in NC is
rather scarce (as in other places) so I don't want to use too much
hay on a daily basis anyway. How did you calculate what I may need to
add? I have the printout for horse nutritional needs but it's in
grams while feed analysis is in % so it takes a bit of work to figure
things out. Then, when things are listed in ppm and the needs are
listed in grams, I have no clue as to how to calculate. I'm eager to
figure this stuff out, but I'll have to say that I'm still in a maze.

For example, one of the posts from Dr Kellon says that timothy hay
causes a 32X greater rise in blood sugar in an IR horse than beet
pulp but yet the ODTB cubes are highly recommended. If beet pulp is
the best of all feeds, wouldn't we do better if we balanced that and
fed more of it? Maybe there is too much volume required for them to
eat enough?

Dizzy in NC!


Chasteberry Medical References

equimedsurg <equimedsurg@...>

Dr. Kellon:

I noticed a lot of talk on this subject and thought the group would
like these references.

1. From the UK Laminitis Trust/Emerald Valley Equine, itself. Of
the 25 horses studied by them, 9 had ACTH levels actually go up, 13
had Insulin levels go up, and 10 had cortisol levels go up. I will
send the actual study, by them, to anyone who would like a copy.
Email me your fax number. If over 1/3rd had ACTH go up and over 1/2
had Insulin elevate, I would say it is not a great choice.

2. PDR for Herbal Medicines under Vitez (pg. 1222) - Not listed as
Cushings medication. Not to be used in pregnant animals. I would
advise any pregnant horse owner to say away from it.

3. Mosby's Handbook of Herbs and Natural Supplements. Under Chaste
(pg. 202), as with PDR, used for impotence or PMS but not Cushings.
Psychological side effects include severe depression. Also listed as
not to be used in lactating women. Gastric side effects: diarrhea,
cramps, anorexia.

4. Consumer's Guide to Herbal Medicine - under Chasteberry (pg.
64). Nickname of it is Monk's Pepper Tree - due to medieval monks
drank it to decrease libido. How that will help a Cushings horse, we
can only guess, but a fun fact. Why it is used to decrease libido
and also for impotence is also a little odd. I'll bet this dilemma
will cause some interesting discussion.

Have a great new year.

Dr. Frank K Reilly

Feeding help :-(

Ask me and I might just tell ya :-)

I have a Foundation Quarter Horse Mare shes 28 years of age and in
sadly very bad shape. The vet has tested her for cushings as well as
many other equine diseases but she cant get a definate answer as to
whats wrong with this mare. She is and has been for some time
loosing weight even though shes has all the feed she could want at
disposal. Right now she is painfully thin with no fat and very
muscle left.

While the tests say no she doesnt have cushings I figure seeing as we
dont know whats wrong with her it cant help to ask for feeding
The outlook is very poor for her now and I figure it cant hurt to

For alittle history:

This mare has been horribly abused and neglected in the past. She
then used as a broodmare with her first foal being born when she was
20. I purchased her as a companion at the age of 24 and she was in
good shape considering actually hugely fat the vet was worried about
founder. About a year after I purchased her she was horrifically
injured in a freak accident. Many many stitches later and 11 months
stall rest we were able to save her. But here began he steady
decline. At about 26 she started to look alittle thin but the vet
mostly loose of muscle due to injuries ect. At first the weight lose
was very slow and almost unnoticeable. But in the last 10 months or
things have started to go downhill fast.

Right now for feed she gets: (sorry I dont have the weight on this at
this time)

2 Quarts of Triple Crown Senior AM & PM
2 Quarts or Hay Stretcher AM & Pm
1 Quart of unsoaked Beet Pulp AM & PM

All this is added to a bucket with plenty of hot water to form a nice
warm meal for her.

She gets as much hay as she wants but shes not big on hay never has
been. Shes blanketed to the hilt for out New England Winters even
though she gets an ungodly thick winter coat. Shes had all the
routine vet care and worming ect.

Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer to a very desperate

p.s. Sorry for any spelling mistakes I didnt have a chance to proof

Re: moving


PS: Where I seem to meet the subtle resistance as I carefully screen barns over the
phone to see if they will take us is over soaking hay & pergolide pills, instead of liquid...
they don't do it for their Cushing's horse & don't see the need... I don't want to argue or
get on a soapbox, so don't say much, other than it's worked very well for us...
but this worries me...

Mara & Ally

Re: availability of Sterret Pellets & ODBalanced Cubes in Santa Fe


--- In EquineCushings@..., "Amberlee" <fivepineranch@...> wrote:

Also does anyone have any suggestions for good boarding in Santa Fe? I'd like to find a
facility that would be receptive & understanding of how we do things, as well as have nice
arenas & great trail access-- looking for a really nice place, & reliable.
The groom where I am now is the best--he totally gets what we do & never let's his ego
get in the way, as so often "horse people" do... He loves us & is totally devoted...But it's
time to go for othr reasons, & I'm really worried about life without him, dealing with egos &
Ally has to have her hay soaked & pergolide twice daily--a lot of barns don't want to do's hard to ask going in when there's no relationship.

Any suggestions?
Mara & Ally

Re: Koko and the cold weather

briarskingstonnet <briars@...>

Koko has a very heavy coat. I have been putting a blanket on him
when the temps get really cold.
Hi Karen,

Everything is relative and so it's difficult to know if your meaning
of "very heavy" is the same as mine.Or "very cold",for that matter.But
if my horse has a very heavy coat I don't blanket him....UNLESS I ever
see him shivering.Nature is very clever with those heavy coats.The
hairs underneath are different from the ones on top and do different
jobs.The insulation value of a very heavy coat is wonderful.If a
blanket is put on top it presses down on the hairs/air spaces and
reduces the insulation value for that reason.But,of course,the blanket
will keep warmth in.
The point is,though,that the horse is probably better off (IMO)with
his own insulation long as he is dry,of course.

His legs are also very furry and I have not been putting leg wraps
or boots on him. He is not foot sore at all.
Again,I would just keep a close eye if he were mine,but let Mother
Nature do her thing with his furry legs.First sign of soreness would
make me wrap .



Re: source for stabilized flax


--- In EquineCushings@..., "horsecorrect"
<horsecorrect@...> wrote:

My goal is to balance a beet pulp/ODTBC diet. I see that I need
stabilized flax and monosodium phosphate.
HorseTech's NutraFlax is ground, stabilized flax. Order it without
added calcium as it's high in phosphorus already and it appears you
need some. You can get monosodium phosphate from I like the
Equi-Phos as it's more palatable.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)

Re: Koko and the cold weather


--- In EquineCushings@..., "Karen" <karen@...> wrote:

Koko has a very heavy coat. I have been putting a blanket on him
the temps get really cold. His legs are also very furry and I have
been putting leg wraps or boots on him. He is not foot sore at
Is it necessary to wrap his legs if he is not foot sore?
If you do not see any lamness issues with Koko then it sounds like he
manages just fine. Not all I.R. Cushing's equines require the winter
protocal and if in the future you do suspect this as an isssue for any
equine, then you have the information to handle it.

Koko and the cold weather

Karen <karen@...>

Koko has a very heavy coat. I have been putting a blanket on him when
the temps get really cold. His legs are also very furry and I have not
been putting leg wraps or boots on him. He is not foot sore at all.
Is it necessary to wrap his legs if he is not foot sore?
Karen, Chantilly, Tommi and Koko

Re: availability of Sterret Pellets & ODBalanced Cubes in Santa Fe

Deb Platt

Welcome to NM.

Unable to get either here, unless you ship in a pallet full for yourself.
Deb P in NM

maragreymare <maragreymare@...> wrote:
I am seriously considering a move to Santa Fe & am concerned about the availability of
the Sterret Pellets or alternatvely the Ontario Dehy Baldnced Cubes in Santa Fe, New
Mexico. Does anyone know?

Mara & Ally

source for stabilized flax

horsecorrect <horsecorrect@...>

My goal is to balance a beet pulp/ODTBC diet. I see that I need
stabilized flax and monosodium phosphate. Other posts indicate but their flax does not say that it is stabilized.
Perhaps I'm just missing something? Horseshine was mentioned, too, but
I'll have to check on the amount to add. If someone has time, help
would be appreciated.

I'm making progress in refining my two horses' Cushing's
and one IR. This group is just the BEST. Thank you to all who take the
time to contribute to helping.


Re: availability of Sterret Pellets & ODBalanced Cubes in Santa Fe

5 Pine Ranch

Mara and Ally, best is to contact both feed companies directly and ask
about availability in the new area. Both Linda and Aurelio are awesome
at trying to work things out for this.


was begging/ now back on topic.

valdavoli <STOMPERX@...>

hello again.

not sure if my last update went through. but my guy colicked on
christmas day. my new barn fell through the next day, and my trailer
person wanted to committ highway robbery to move him.

i am making progress once again. i have found another barn and
trailer. i am moving my guy on sunday dec 30. (i HOPE!! nobody
better cancel) with this colic, i feel it is urgent that i move him
NOW. maybe i am being overdramatic, but i fear they will kill my guy
feeding this way. aside from the feeding, he just is not happy. the
new barn appears to be a good location. i won't know till we get

i have found a potential source for ODTC.

Cindy and Syndiego:
your guy Dave, at Most Feeds and Garden: simply AWESOME!!! he
hooked me up with a store that is about 45 minutes away. only
problem, is this store only gets an order in every two months. they
are going to try to get my initial order in on the next truck, but i
may have to wait. they do not know when next truck comes, only that
it is "soon".

so, questions?

given his compromised health/feet. i do not want to make an abrupt
feed change when i get the ODTC. (again, i am only ASSUMING i get
the ODTC in the next two weeks)

would this be appropriate feed scenario?

i need to lessen his BSCG anyway, he has gained weight at this
barn. but:
keep his "regular" ration of BSCG, and start substituting a small
portion of his hay with ODTC? OR:
start by substituting the ODTC for the BSCG? and keep hay the same?

if he does well while changing to the ODTC, is it
acceptable/appropriate to also keep him on the BSCG until the blue
seal runs out?

there are a lot of small things to consider:
new barn: he will not have as much turnout. he will be in heated
barn, so he will not need as much feed to help maintain body weight.
etc, etc, etc... all little things adding up to the bigger picture.

when i finally get the ODTC, do i stop the separate supliments i have
him on? i think i had them listed in my case file, if not i will post
them. i do not want to double his sups by mistake.

i am preparing myself for worse case: that he simply does not bounce
back from this whole mess, and the new barn/feed changes will
ultimately be the final straw.
but i am praying for the best: that he will be well on his way to
recovering in a couple months.

Possible Ration Plus Substitute?

tomtriv <Lee_Skee@...>

Hi all
Thanks everyone for your generous help over the past few months.
Dawn is finally all the extras recommended: Rainey Farms ginseng,
Ration Plus (been on it for about a week so far) and Lysine. She
is putting on fat over her ribs again even though the weight tape
still reads 943. Her muzzle is as closed as possible for her
situation and her beet pulp is r/s/r so the only molasses she gets is
what is in the Ration Plus. Dawn still drinks and pees a fair amount
but I think not as excessively - even though I am mucking her stall
almost every day it is impossible to monitor this super closely due
to variations in barn routine. The pergolide has been switched to
capsules at a dose of 3 mg/day. She seems better and perhaps can
start being ridden soon. Updated pictures are posted (link in
signature). Interestingly I have seen no evidence of arthritis in her
hock this year. Could this be because of the ginseng? (I haven't
ridden her since the middle of October as she just wasn't doing that

As we are now out of the fall seasonal rise and the ginseng and
Ration Plus are pretty expensive does Dawn need to have them all year
round? If she needs them, and if I have the $, I'll continue to get
them but at about $1 per day each, if she doesn't need them, I could
really use the $ elsewhere. The Lysine is cheap enough so if she
should be getting that year round(?) I can do that easily.

The Ration Plus costs around $50 per bottle ($28 for bottle and $17
for shipping from the U.S.) The only Canadian dealer I could find is
actually more expensive even though shipping was estimated to be
$10. However, a Canadian company that makes a probiotic for horses
has offered to sell me the individual active ingredients that go into
Ration Plus but I am unsure what is specifically needed and/or which
form is most beneficial. Ration Plus has Liquid lactobacillus
acidophilus fermentation product, calcium proprionate, sodium
benzoate and phosphoric acid as a preservative. The Canadian company
uses Bacillus subtillis (fermented extract dehydrated, Lactobacillus
(dehydrated) and Bacillus linchenformis (dehydrated). Would these
be of any use to me or should I just stick with Ration Plus? I'd
have to ask if they'd be able to get the liquid lactobacillus
acidophilus fermentation product but I wanted to check with the list
before asking.
Newmarket, Ontario
Case History:
Muzzle Photos:

Re: Quick OT note on knee braces/wraps


--- In EquineCushings@..., repete134@... wrote:

What is the reason behind wrapping the legs and keeping them warm?
Is this
just for Cushings horses? I thought the cold was good for

Yes, if this is laminitis and the horse got into some oats that
caused the problem and the laminitis is set off due to a grain over
load. Although vets can and do prescribe medications for
dialators/vasilators for the more severe cases when this happens.
This is also recommended on the list. However this is not quite the
same thing with WINTER LAMINITIS for I.R Cushing's equines and or
complicated pain issues brought on or increased with the cold.
Different causation at work. The wrappings and coats with boots is
for reducing cold-related foot pain for winter laminitis. The reason
this occurs for I.R and or Cushing's equines is the reduce nitrix
oxide support with these condition and or damage to the hoofs by way
of reduced blood supply that is complicated by the cold. Nitric oxide
support production is reduced in these equines. The normal cold-
triggered vasoconstriction causes critical underperfusion of the feet
in horses that have pre-existing vascular damage or baseline poor
perfusion related to their metabolic conditions. It is also
recommended with the leg wrappings and coats to utilize AAKG and or
J herb ( Jiaogulan). These are used in conjunction with adaptogenic
herbs that have varying levels of Nitic Oxide support combined with a
diet and metabolic control. This also helps for support of new hoof
growth in recovering severely foundered horses.

Re: Quick OT note on knee braces/wraps

papballou <PapBallou@...>

--- In EquineCushings@..., repete134@... wrote:

What is the reason behind wrapping the legs and keeping them warm?
Hi Paula -

The comment yesterday about knee braces was for horses that were
arthritic in their knees (carpus)...not specifically for laminitis.
However, for those horses that develop winter/cold laminitis, wrapping
the legs/shipping boots, etc, is one of the recommendations to try to
alleviate the effects of cold.


Re: Newly diagnosed


--- In EquineCushings@..., "lloydequestrian"
<lloydequestrian@...> wrote:

My 4 year old Morgan gelding was diganosed this morning as insulin
resistant. The last 6 months his daily diet has been grass/alfalfa
hay (soaked) and a mash of beet pulp, senior feed, whole oats, rice
bran, clovite and a weight builder. Any suggestions on a new diet??
Any help

Hi Jamie
Welcome to the group! Our files are packed with new information that
you can read and learn lots concerning I.R. The list philosophy is
DDT/E. Diagnosis by bloodwork, Diet being low carbohyrdate/fat and
Trim a balanced foot, and exercise when horse is able.
Have you had bloodwork done on your Morgan insulin,glucose tests or
was the diagnosis by clinical observation. If blood work post untits
and reference values and if clinical can you give us some information
on how the this came about and what are your concerns?
For now I would follow the emergancy diet and cut out the grass,
senior feed, whole oats and rice bran. We recommend flax instead of
the rice bran as the fat content is very high for I.R equines same
with the other feeds. Some horse who are I.R can tolerate some
Alfalfa others can not. In the files are some low s/s feeds and hay
cubes for suggestions. The beet pupl is excellent provided the
molasses is r/s/r/ rinsed, soaked, rinced until the water runs clean
or purchased non-molassed beet pulp. We treat per diagnosis.
Medication for Cushings gold standard is Pergolide and Diet for IR.
It is not to hard once you get the hang of it. When you joined you
would of recieved temporary emergency diet and it works because it is
VERY LOW sugar/starch. No grass until you know what the tolerance
level is for your gelding. Some I.R equines can never eat grass or
Alfalfa again. Have a read at to see how dangerous
grass is this time of year. When the case histories are back up and
running fill one in for us all, this enables us to efficiently help
you located at
Diagnosis: We deal with primarily two different metabolic disorders
on this list. The first is Cushings disease, which is a pituitary
adenoma. This is treated with drugs, the norm is Pergolide
The second disorder is insulin resistance or I.R. This is
treated with diet LOW S/S/ and exercise if and when your horse is

Diet: We recommend a low sugar/starch diet. This means no cookies,
no carrots, no treats or grrains or senior feed. These are all high
s/s/ and often molasses and usually iron. If you don't
know the sugar and starch content, we recommend soaking your hay to
reduce the sugars. One hour cold water and thirty minutes hot water
to leach out as much s/s/ starch as possible. Try the temp emergency
diet until you can have your hay tested and can organize the correct
minerals to balance diet and know s/s in the hay.

We recommend that you weigh her hay. It's important that you do not
try to starve your horse to lose weight as it is counter productive
to I.R. Feed at 1.5% to 2% of ideal body weight.
Walmart sells fish scales that you can easily weigh your hay with.
They also carry the Vitamin E Human gelcaps and you need some flax
and salt. Table salt is fine. Trim: It's important to have a good
trim - heels down, toes back.The hoof gurus can jump in for more
information if you post picts for advice.

The care and prognosis for horses that are cushings and/or insulin
resistant is a lot different from years ago. We've come a long way
in our understanding on how to care for and treat our horses.
Help yourself to the files read lots learn lots and fire away with

Re: Newly diagnosed

Joan and Dazzle

Hi Jamie,

Welcome to the group. You've certainly come to the right place. There
are tons of people to help. And this list is cutting edge with regards
to metabolic issues in horses - both Cushings and Insulin Resistance.

As you probably realized by now, insulin resistance is controlled by
diet. Some horses are more likely to be insulin resistant than others.

Our list philosophy are the DDTEs - diagnosis, low sugar/starch/fat
diet, hoof trim, and exercise if your horse is able.

We're glad you're here. It sounds like your vet is really on the ball
to get the diagnosis of insulin resistance. Did you have blood work
done to confirm this diagnosis? The bloodwork that we recommend is a
glucose and insulin test from the same blood draw. This will tell you
where you are and when you test periodically, it tells you how
successful you are with the diet plan that you are using.

Is your boy currently laminitic? I'm assuming not. If he is, you'll
have to jump straight to the emergency diet that was emailed to you
when you joined.

Let's jump straight into dietary concerns. We suggest a diet low in
sugar, starch, and fat. This means that you need to review every
single thing that goes into his mouth.

First, you have to know how much hay you're feeding him. Is he a
little overweight? On an orchard alfalfa mix, you probably do not want
to free feed him. How tall is he? How much does he weigh? You will
want to feed 1.5-2% of his ideal weight. If he's overweight, you will
want to feed 1.5% of his current weight or 2% of his ideal weight,
whichever is greater.

You will need to get a scale to weigh his hay. Walmart sells fish
scales that will work. We can help you determine the amount that he
should be eating every day. You don't ever want to put your horse on a
starvation diet to lose weight. Fat will be mobilized from the cells
for energy, resulting in hyperlipemia. This is very dangerous for a

It's good that you soak the hay. You need to be sure that you soak it
for either 1/2 hour in hot water, or 1 hour in cold water. That can
reduce the sugars up to 30%. Do you also pour out the water someplace
where he can't get to it? The water will have a lot of sugar in it,
which some horses think tastes great. But if they drink the water with
the sugar, you've defeated the whole purpose for soaking.

Can you get your hay tested to know exactly what's in it? That way,
you will know the sugar and starch content of the hay. We recommend
hay that is less than 10% sugar and starch. That's low, but we've
found that horses usually do better on the lower sugar/starch hay.

Beet pulp. We like beet pulp here. But it has to be the kind without
molasses. Then, you need to rinse/soak/rinse until the beet pulp water
comes out clean. Otherwise, you will have too much sugar still in it.

The senior feed usually isn't appropriate for insulin resistant
horses. The sugar and starch content is just too high. I'd eliminate
this from his diet.

Whole oats. Is he at work? What's his body condition score? Oats are
also high in sugar and starch. I would eliminate this until you have
his insulin resistance under control.

Rice bran. You will want to eliminate this and add ground flax seed to
his diet instead. Flax seed is high in omega 3s, which are very anti-
inflammatory. You will want to feed 2 oz daily. High levels of fat
tend to make the insulin resistance not come under control. Rice bran
has high fat levels.

Clovite. Clovite is also high in fats. You will want to eliminate this

I don't know what weight builder you're using. So I can't comment on

Additionally, you will want to eliminate all treats that are over 10%
sugar/starch. This means no carrots, no cookies, no Mrs. Pastures. Dr.
Kellon has said many times, horses don't need treats. That one is a
hard one for me. I've been very lucky to find a couple of places that
have low sugar starch treats. Skodes is one of them. I also found an
alfalfa treat that I've tested that is fairly low. Most treats are not.

You will want to be sure to feed him iodized salt, and add vitamin e
gel caps. The liquid is better utilized by the body. The powder is not
as effective.

So, that would be my suggestions until you get your hay tested. Then,
you can add minerals that are necessary.

Help yourself to the files. There is a ton of information. Once you
get used to a new routine, it's really not that hard.

Just ask if you have more questions.

Joan and Dazzle

--- In EquineCushings@..., "lloydequestrian"
<lloydequestrian@...> wrote:

The last 6 months his daily diet has been grass/alfalfa hay
(soaked) and a mash of beet pulp, senior feed, whole oats, rice
clovite and a weight builder. Any suggestions on a new diet??

Re: Remission-was Questions????????

Claire C. Cox-Wilson <shotgun.ranch@...>

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Erin R." <figure1789@...> wrote:

Re: Magnesium Supplement
Here's a supplement that has the magnesium and the chromium used for IR
horses. It's called "Remission," and labeled for laminitic horses. My
horse has not foundered, but I use the product for his IR. .........
About Remission,
unless your soil is deficient in chromium, it is really not
recommended. See Dr. Kellon's post #95616.
Claire from Az

Re: Hilton Herballs

Claire C. Cox-Wilson <shotgun.ranch@...>

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Joan and Dazzle"
<horsies4luv@...> wrote:

Hi Ethlyn,

I've just heard about them today. They are made from alfalfa, wheat
flour and linseed meal, mixed with garlic, mint, oregano, and
rosemary. I don't know what their ESC+ starch content
is...........I'd want to see a test done on them before feeding them
to my
little IR princess.

Joan and Dazzle

I totally agree with Joan. I believe dried herbs in themselves are
safe for IR horses, but they must be using something as a binder (to
keep them together) ...molasses perhaps?
For my peace of mind, I prefer to play it safe and go with something
like Skode's Horse Treats that guarantee a NSC below 10%.
Claire from AZ

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