Re: Penny's getting a cold

Sandra Su

At 9:39 PM +0000 1/13/08, Wendy Golding& Amberlee answered my question.
Thanks. I will take her temp., which I was going to do the other day,
but having recently bought a digital thermometer and not knowing how
to use it, I got instructions from someone at the barn, and then it
got too busy. I want to do it at a time when Penny can stand quietly
in the cross ties.

Today I rode for a short time. She's sound, in spite of my farrier's
fears about the rim pad. She coughed a little when I started
trotting, but it didn't seem even as bad as yesterday when the
farrier was here and she was merely standing in the cross ties. Also,
there was only a small amount of mucus in her nostrils. I went easy
on her, only riding a short time and mostly at a walk. She took issue
with a corner of the ring where there were 2 blue barrels. The last
time she was there, there was only 1 blue barrel, so of course, the
addition of another barrel made that corner very suspicious. So we
walked in circles passing those fearsome barrels till they became
boring. Then we did it in the other direction. That was the bulk of
our ride.

It'll be quieter tomorrow in the middle of the day, being a weekday,
so that'll be the perfect time for temperature taking.

One more question: this thermometer doesn't have a place to attach a
string. The woman who helped me figure out how to operate it
suggested wrapping a small rubber band tightly around the end and
using that to attach a string. Would that be secure enough? Do I even
need one, since this thermometer is wedge-shaped, with the wide end
the part I hold? You can see I'm not used to this kind of
thermometer, having always used the old-fashioned kind that's a glass
tube with mercury.

Now, for all those laughing their heads off at my ineptitude, I admit
that I'm not mechanically inclined. So, take heart, newbies who have
never cored your hay yet. I mastered that, and if I can do it, you
can, too!


Sandy Su

Sleep deprivation

Lynn Williams <lynjwilliams@...>

All animals evolved to work - us included. We are not designed to sit
on our (ever increasing) butts watching tv and eating highly
processed, high salt, high saturated fat, high sugar 'food'.

The result of this grossly unnatural lifestyle is an epidemic of
metabolic disorders - a state of disequilibrium - induced by our
lifestyle. Don't even get me started on the people who promote this to
make profits.

Because modern medicine works within a symptomatic paradigm - it
treats the symptoms and, unless there's money to be made from it,
largely ignores the causes.

Same with horses. There has been an explosion of equestrianism as a
leisure pursuit (accompanying the post-WW2 increase in leisure time
and disposable income throughout the 'developed' world), which markets
have responded to and in turn promoted. We have seen changes in the
social and cultural status of horses, from working animals to pets or
leisure accessories - and recently - problems of the locomotor system
(which, from the advent of shoeing, have been the major cause of
health problems in the horse) are being overtaken by problems of the
digestive and metabolic systems. In particular, disruptions of the
highly complex messenging and regulating neuro-endocrine and
peptidergic nervous systems.

As with us, these problems exist in a context of environmental
pollutants, social stress, mineral imbalances, poor nutrition,
inadequate rest, a sedentary lifestyle etc etc.

OK - this is a simplistic view for the purposes of illustrating a
point. Sleep deprivation in humans: too much fat, salt and sugar, too
little quality protein - too little movement - body is full of the
wrong sort of energy, not physically tired, brain is too full of
cyber-junk and the person doesn't sleep properly. The levels of
hormones that signal satiety drop off, those that promote appetite
increase. The person gets up not fully rested - physically or mentally
- and wants to eat. And so it goes - once the weight starts to pile
on, both the desire to and possibility of exercise reduce - muscular
skeletal and heart muscle damage ensure that. Vicious circle.

The person is pretty soon locked into a degenerative cycle and the
younger they go into it, the longer they are in it, the harder it is
to break - until chaos ensues and all bets are off because the system
regulators don't work according to the known rules anymore. And not
only do they not work, they have effects we cannot predict. We can do
little more than manage the symptoms - or helplessly watch the decline.

We can fully understand the cyclical and dynamic nature of this only
if we look at humans in their broad social context - same with horses.

OK - back on my hobby horse. We all know the nature of horses - herd,
prey, flight instinct, movement, trickle feeders, efficient processors
of high fibre/ low sugar forage, hierarchical (place in herd
renegotiated constantly), sleeps standing up and lies down for only a
couple of hours and flat out for less, natural posture head low etc etc.

Disruptions to those basic species requirements ALWAYS have an effect;
some effects are cumulative and increase with age; some interact and
exacerbate each other.

Disruptions to the horse's skeletal balance are at the very foundation
of its physical and mental health because, if it cannot operate its
stay apparatus or properly engage its dorsal ligaments, it cannot
fully regenerate muscles whilst upright - it has to use its propulsive
muscles constantly just to remain upright - for 90+% of its life. If,
in addition to that, it is too stressed, too insecure, too stiff to
lie down when it needs to - it is in a state of perpetual physical and
mental stress.

As a prey animal the horse hides distress very well and it manifests
in different ways according to the nature of the individual horse and
its relationships. The ones at most risk sadly - are the stoical,
kindly, gentle souls who just persevere.

For me, the consequences of an unbalanced skeleton cannot be
overstated. Far from it being the proverbial straw, they are in fact
the huge burden the horse carries all the time; and the triggers for
metabolic disorders - are the straws that break its back.

The foundation of the skeleton is the ground parallel pedal bone and
its protective shell - the hoof. And look at what we have done to the
hoof over the past 20-30 years. We've added to the catalogue of
disorders that accompany shoeing by promoting a high heel hoof form
and 'orthopaedic' shoes - as the answer to problems that are caused by

How iron-ic is that?


Re: Is Fasting standard procedure for blood draw?

Sandra Su

... the vet has asked me to have Twitter fast before the blood draw. Just making sure this is standard procedure.
It's not standard procedure. See the files for instructions on blood testing. There's also a lot of discussion on this in the files. The topic comes up periodically.

Sandy Su

Re: Is Fasting standard procedure for blood draw?

Mandy Woods

No Kerrie,
We don't advise fasting for any of the tests. For the ACTH test you want to keep her very happy, quiet and unstressed as possible to get the best reading. Have the ACTH pull first. Feed soaked hay or her regular low nsc meal. Maybe you should print off the Cornell instructions on handling the ACTH blood. You want to use a chilled purple top tube and have it centerfuged within 1-3 hours of the draw. This blood needs to be kept chilled for transport. You might take a small bucket of ice with you incase your vet doesn't think about that. The important thing on this test is the handling from the draw. If you vet has other calls to make, YOU offer to drive the chilled blood sample to the vets office for spinning! Freeze the plasma immediately.
This all sounds like a lot of work but it really isn't once you do it. You just have to get your ducks in a row! Many vets don't want to do this test because of this....
Did you already get the insulin/glucose?

Mandy and Asher in VA

My vet is doing another blood draw to send off for the ACTH and I also want her to do a complete blood panel. The first sample was "lost in shipment on it's way to Phoenix." Anyway, the vet has asked me to have Twitter fast before the blood draw. Just making sure this is standard procedure.

Re: Diet of wild horses ?

Carlynne Allbee

While one would be tempted to say that wild horses eat naturally and therefore may eat more healthy than our domesticated ones....How old to they get? Look at how many people on this list have equines over 20, 25 and even over 30 years old? Would they have lived that long foraging in the wild?

Carlynne Allbee and Patience

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Mel - trim

Lynn Williams <lynjwilliams@...>

I looked at the pics before I read the post - because I like my eye
to be unbiassed. These are the notes I made as I viewed them.
#Body shots : Sway back, croup high (weak LD and abs - dorsal ligament
not engaged); standing slightly under in front and slightly camped out
behind. Most likely heel pain in all feet. Looks stressed. Steeper
pastern RF; toe out RF. Hinds slightly toe out.
Feet pics:
LF: doesn't weight evenly; medial wall almost behind the vertical;
heels severely contracted and too long; toe too long; frog not
contacting ground; yellowy sole horn?? some substance? if not then -
wound secretion. Impact?
RF: heels too long, contracted; medial wall inside vertical. LCs
pushed up, dip at toe indicating rotation.
RH - too long overall - toe and heel; heels moderately contracted; o/s
heel longer; full bars;
LH - heels and bars too long; ditto contraction and frog contact; toe
too long; medial wall steep; lateral flared - wavy stress lines in
hoof; lateral wall and heel longer?
Needs heels and bars lowered; toe backed quite hard; address medial
bars and heel hooks as reasons for unloading. Needs to load heels,
lower pastern angle; will need muscle therapy to help adjustment to
new angles. Until he's loading the heels - and pastern /shoulder angle
returns to normal, dorsal ligament able to carry weight and allow LD
to recover - will be at risk of further laminitic episodes.#

I then read your post and was so exhausted by the end I had to have a
cup of tea. :)

The biggest problem this lad has, which will have resulted being a
'gaited' horse in the fetishistic world of equestrian showing, is
contraction - very severe LF, severe RF and moderately severe in the
hinds. When the heels are long, so are the bars; in a contracted hoof
- ie one in which the heels converge instead of diverge and do not
expand normally on weightbearing, the bars end up growing into places
they are not meant to be - very high into the hoof and/or under the
frog; there can also be a hook of heel material wedged under the frog
and bulbs that can be extremely uncomfortable - like an ingrown toe nail.

Some trimming styles advocate not attempting to trim this; some say
the internal structures of the foot(ie the digital cushion, frog and
the lateral cartilages) need to regenerate and, as they do, they will
push the heels and bars back to where they should be. The problem with
this theory in my view is that the regeneration of cartilage requires
a lot of circulation because of the way it is nourished, ie requires a
lot of movement and good circulation; good circulation requires good
hoof mechanism - ie expansion of the hoof capsule (heels opening, bars
opening and descending and sole flattening). The closer the heels are
to vertical, the less likely it is that this will happen unaided - and
if they are beyond the vertical - the opposite will happen - the heels
will converge on weightbearing and further deform the LCs and compress
the DC and frog corium.

The problem with severe contraction when the heels and bars are left
long is that long bars make the hoof capsule at the heel very
resistant to expansion - it takes a lot of impact force to get them to
move sufficiently to decontract. If the horse is comfortable enough to
load its heels and to withstand the amount of movement it needs to
decontract its feet without our intervention, that's fine - but if it
is telling you the heel is painful - by preferring to load an already
damaged toe - how can you expect it to be able to stand the sort of
impact forces necessary to decontract a rigid hoof?

So, in my view it's actually better to give it a helping hand - by
weakening the bars (just lowering and straightening them), bringing
the initial impact point of the heel down and back so the heels and
frog are level; shortening the toe (height as well as length if

As to medial-lateral imbalance - what do the xrays say?

With older horses you have to consider the need for a balanced
skeleton, without which the horse cannot engage its dorsal ligament or
operate its stay apparatus and therefore regenerate its muscles,
against the stress of postural changes. In my view - the former is so
fundamental to the horse's physical and mental health, that any
management strategy should be actively working towards it.

Others may weigh in with more detailed advice - I hope this is helpful.


Is Fasting standard procedure for blood draw?

Kerrie Regimbal <kidznhorses@...>

My vet is doing another blood draw to send off for the ACTH and I also want her to do a complete blood panel. The first sample was "lost in shipment on it's way to Phoenix." Anyway, the vet has asked me to have Twitter fast before the blood draw. Just making sure this is standard procedure.

Thank you!

Kerrie & Twitter

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Beauty (in IN) Hoof Pics

ponymays <ponymays@...>

I posted some pics of Beauty's hooves. The new ones are dated 0108 &
are not the greatest. She is very sore on her front & back end. A
couple months ago she was resting her right rear hoof more than
normal, was stocking up on that lower leg, & that hoof had some pink
on the hoof wall (bruising?). How that fits in I don't know but
the majority of the hindend soreness has to be coming from the front
hoof pain. She has the
red "squigglies" around her white line on both fronts. I had trimmed
back her toes between farrier visits(mid Dec) & this didn't help the
discomfort. She had been
standing with her front legs (from the front) coming down towards each
other, like a V shape. Her trim on Jan 3 helped that some but not
totally. She has been wearing Equine Slippers with Hoof Trax pads at
night. When I took those off in the mornings, the compression showed
the majority of weight bearing was on her heels. This last trim was
the first by a new farrier. I don't know if she's hurting (& the
damage) is from an
injury (too much running in some deep soft snow) or it's mechanical or
if it's metabolic. The new farrier commented on knowing how the trim
worked when he comes back in 4 weeks. In the meantime, I'm
frustrated. If anyone has comments on the trim I would appreciate any

Terrie & Beauty (in IN)

Re: Sleep deprivation, Was: Other matters

J Amick

Just recently I read an article about the outbreak of type 2 diabetes
in humans being in
astronomical numbers and this was brought on by sleep deprivation.
Well guess what?
Your reading a post from one! All along I've encouraged that the
lyme disease
was creating many other problems like the IR in our horses. Till the
day I die I will
say this, as I saw first hand what the lyme can do to push horses into
Cushings, IR and
iron overload, and most of these created laminitis.
I use sawdust and pine shavings in my stalls and I noted years ago of
who laid down flat out to get restful sleep, and who just stood up to
"sleep". The
shavings told the story.

jtb14789 wrote:

My Cushings/IR horse developed this sleep deprivation problem when he
contracted Lyme. The vet had no clue what was wrong with him. I came
across the Equus article & it answered a lot of questions I had.

Maybe not directly related to Cushings/IR, but we do seem to have a
significant number of members on the board who's horses subsequently
develop Lyme.


Re: Diet of wild horses ?

Ute <ute@...>

Yes, thank you _ I have been to her website, but have not been able to
locate anything specific in this regard. I also sent her an e-mail with
the same question :-)

I know for example that British ponies have been observed eating gorse,
a relative of the scotch broom, but that's all I know besides observing
my own horse in his pasture eatig firs, the dropped flower stalks of
the OR Big Leaf Maple trees, a trillium flower and he nibbled on some
odd ornamental thistle that started growing in his pasture last year. :-


Re: is this diet ok

twinkle_and_amber <kelly111@...>

oh god shes off of that!


Re: Diet of wild horses ?

John Stewart

Subject: [EquineCushings] Diet of wild horses ?

Katy Watts gave a presentation at the Laminitis Conference in Florida in November "What do feral horses eat?" I haven't checked her website to see if it is on there. The notes we received were very brief, the "proceedings" having been lost in the post.


Evitex AND Pergolide? REPOST

mannequin2d <nobst@...>

Hi group: I had asked this a few days ago but didn't receive any
replies on ground or whole berries vs. liquid. Would anyone know?
Thanks so much.

--- In EquineCushings@..., "mannequin2d" <nobst@...> wrote:

Hi Cindy: I ordered the Evitex (brand liquid) this morning but after
your post went to the Herbalcom website to see that the chasteberry
powder is astonishingly less expensive than the liquid, based on
feeding costs! So now of course am wondering about quality as related
to price? Would anyone be able to advise me why the liquid would be
much more expensive? Thank you, Wendy.

Re: Can you please look at my photo album?

Ute <ute@...>

Her stance is not normal, if she always stands like that, but usually
if a horse has laminitis and founders, the front legs are also
stretched out in front to relieve the toes. Is there any pulse and a
lot of heat in her front feet?

She does need a correct trim asap though! That alone might bring her
the comfort she desperately needs. I'll PM you with names of trimmers
in your area. Best wishes!!


Re: Can you please look at my photo album?

Cindy McGinley

"luckycharmfarm" <LuckyCharmFarm@...> asked:

i just wonder about that stance? the rounded rear end and tucked in?
is that a laminitis stance or am i just paranoid (a little knowlege
is a bad thing!).
I went and looked again because I thought in the first pictures she wasn't standing that way, and I wasn't nuts after all: it doesn't look to me that she was standing that way in the pictures where she's dry (or the first wet picture). I thought she was standing like that because she was cold from being wet (and her hooves are long). She does look quite post-legged behind, which combined with the length of hoof may be contributing to that under stance.

the hooves are all choppy and uneven but i was looking at the
difference in coloring at the tops. a lighter band (1") at the top of
the hoof. does that have anything to do with laminitis? (a little
knowlege is a bad thing).
White-hooved horses always show lots of variations in color. The one hoof shows a dish and a flare (I don't recall which one), but that could just be from length and can be corrected with trim. Not a big deal, so I didn't mention it before.

and yes, you all arent the right ones to ask! lol.
Let me put it this way (after a lifetime of horse experience): if I was looking for a horse for kids, I would not let this one go. Yes, she's a bit more aged than we like to buy them, but she looks in good shape for her age, and she's a rescue, so you're also doing her a favor. As I've said before here, when taking on an aged horse, you're always taking a chance. But this mare seems to have no more problems than many horses her age, and fewer than some. And what horse, regardless of age, ever comes with a guarantee?

- Cindy and Alf (and entourage) in NY

Diet of wild horses ?

Ute <ute@...>

Does anyone here know whether or not there have ever been any studies
done as to what exactly wild horse actually eat in various locations ,
including for example semi wild pony/horse herds, like in Great
Britain, the Camargue, etc.? I am hoping that eventually some of this
could be recreated in domestic settings/pastures to prevent most of the
IR problems in the first place.

I'd very much appreciate any links to actual studies you could provide.
Thank you!

Introduction - IR and EPSM horse

Ute <ute@...>

I am a massage therapist who specializes in horse and rider
imbalances and have recently also turned barefoot trimmer - for me
this was simply a natural progression of what I do.

I own an IR miniature pony that was given to me for free , because
the previous owners did not want to deal with his sugar sensitivities
anymore (he foundered at least once prior to me taking him). I also
own a QH/ASB x Selle Francais cross, who, unbeknownst to me, had
developed mild EPSM symptoms while on a processed grain and alfalfa (
1/2 alfalfa and 1/2 grass hay). This diet also caused him to
overreact and often run on a sugar high in his pasture and one day,
in Feb 2005, he probably managed to slide and hyperextend his RF
suspensory by doing so.

He is out 24/7, and stall confinement was not realistic. At the same
time I also started to see the connection between his overrectiveness
and his diet, so I completely changed his diet, pulled all grain and
alfalfa and added BOSS instead, plus vitamins and minerals. He has
since been on only grass hay, some BOSS, Vitamins and minerals as

He healed within 6 months. During this time, some other
symptoms/behavior also started to disappear, like not being able to
keep up with me when walking, hind end sensitivities, intolerance of
having his hind legs up for any length of time, etc. . This is when I
started to put things together and knew that he had also developed
EPSM while on the former diet.

Since the diet change his hooves have also improved tremendously and
I am certain, that over time, he probably would have developed IR as
well. The suspensory strain truly was a blessing in disguise on many

My mini is doing well but I continously struggle to get my friends
(where he lives - they have fed straight alfalfa and grain to their
horses - Arab crosses - all their lives) to understand how sensitive
he is to sugars. It is very frustrating. He had another very mild
flare up recently after they let him out on grass in the driveway and
then I hear stories how they gave him a few oats because he was not
eating his mineral supplement....sigh :-( I hope to be able to move
him out of there as soon as I possibly can.

I truly appreciate the enormous amount of information of this group
and the fact the "unconventional" treatments are considered and
followed as well. We need to be open minded and listen to the horses
to find the best possible treatment approach for each one. Ideally
conventional and unconventional medicine should always compliment
each other, as both have strengths and weaknesses. Thank you for all
your efforts!

Ute Miethe

Re: Blood Pressure Answers wasRe: BLOOD PRESSURE PROJECT


I could only wish this was my BP............LOL? I will take Strykers
tonight and then again in the morning and see what his is.? I find
it strange that a horse and a human are about the same BP wise.

Normal blood pressure in a horse is about 120/70.

More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -

I have J & AAKG for someone who needs it

lynnberghs <lberghs@...>

As I'm unable to properly administer the J/AAKG (20 min. before meal, etc.) due to my
boarding situation, I'm going to switch to ginseng and as a result am offering my J and AAKG
up to someone who needs it. It's fresh--only a month old.

I have 1 3/4 lbs. left of each--2 lbs. of J from was $31 ($26 + shipping) and
2 lbs of AAKG powder from Bunny on the DSLD list was $46 ($41 + $5 shipping). Total $77
less the 1/4 lb. I've used = $67 worth left.

I would like to get $50 for both of them, and will ship it to you 1st class mail for free
anywhere in the lower 48 states.

Please contact me if you are interested. I could get it to the Minneapolis post office nearby
on Monday. Hope this helps out someone in need!!

Lynn B. & Tsultry in Minneapolis (doing very well, thanks to this group!!)

Blood Pressure Answers wasRe: BLOOD PRESSURE PROJECT

Joan and Dazzle

So I looked it up.

According to Wikipedia:

Normal blood pressure in a horse is about 120/70.

After doing other extensive reading, the suggestions that I most
frequently came across were:

1. Wrap the cuff around the horse's tail with the tubes entering the
cuff on the underside of the tail.
2. Inflate to about 160 or greater.
3. Sometimes it's easier to use an automated cuff since the sounds
are sometimes hard to hear.
4. If your horse is not used to having blood pressure taken,it can
cause great anxiety. Practice periodically so they realize that it's
no big deal.
5. Be careful not to get kicked. :)

Joan and Dazzle

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Judith Moore"
<shomanient@...> wrote:

Is there a "normal" range of BP in horses?

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