Re: Complicated Founder Trim, Photos of Mel

Ute <ute@...>

Hi Eva,
When I first read your post I was scared to even look at the
pictures - I expected much worse. They actually do not look that bad
at all! :-)

You already have gotten a lot of good feedback. I am an equine
massage therapist who also does barefoot trimming and I follow the
Bowker/Ramey school of thought primarily! It is imortant that we
always listen to the horses (feet) because they will tell us what
they need.:-)

First I need to point out that as a massage therapist I know that
hoof wear patterns can also be the result of postural habits and how
the horse prefers to use himself! Humans will also wear the soles of
their shoes and heels in a predictable pattern for the same reason.

You horse is most likely left side dominant, which means his left
side is stronger. I can see this by the difference in the front feet,
the left is slightly flatter while the righ front is more upright.
When I see that, I usually confirm this by looking at the shoulders
from behind because the dominant shoulder will also show me more
muscle development :-) The dominant foot tends to be wider and
flatter because it takes more load, not unlike the use of a humans
domiant hand, that for this reason also tends to be more developed.

Your horse also shows me the typical wear patterns that are related
to side dominance - the non-dominant leg tends to be pulled in more
towards the midline, hence the RF wears more on the outside for that
reason. The LF is the opposite - it flares to the outside because he
wears/steps more on the inside edge of the hoof. It is vital for
those reasons that the heels are trimmed balanced. I can see that
they are unlevel, especially in the dominant LF (which is typical for
the domianant front foot, more or less). The collateral grooves can
be used as a measurement and the depth of both should be equal in the
heel area.

My gelding is right side dominant and shows a very similar pattern,
just reversed and he has no laminitis issues.

Bottom line, like already mentioned, the heels of the front feet are
too high. That by itself causes contraction! I am still not quite
certain though what type of opening cut the farrier did. However, to
date, I have not heard this to be used to open up contracted hooves -
lowering the heels (gradually - not all at once) seems to be of
utmost importance.

Essentially your horse's front feet should look more like the hinds
all the way around. I do not necessarily agree that the toes need
more agressive backing. However, the sole is always my guideline - I
will not trim a horse shorter than waht the sole plane on the bottom
tells me, because this could potentially sore the horse and is the
last thing we need in an IR challenged horse.

Your horse also shows me a considerable amount of retained sole in
the front. Again, that should not be carved out. It is an indication
to me, from what I have learned, that the horse still needs it there.
If not, it would simply exfoliate. However, it may also be a sign
that your horse does not get enough movement to stimulate the release
of excess sole and to grow a healthier hoof overall.

The ripples and lines on the hoofwall show me too that your horse is
still affected by his diet. The hoofwall to laminae connection, as it
grows down from the coronet band, is still affected metabolically and
not as consistently tight as it should be. The deeper clefts in the
back of the frogs in the front hooves are another tell tale sign that
diet continues to be a factor for this horse. Pete Ramey has used the
remedy below to successfully treat such cases, because even if no or
tenderness is present, the deeper clefts should be treated, just in

""Added 5-22-07

For years I've searched for the perfect thrush medicine. Most
products that kill the fungi and bacteria also kill living tissue;
contributing to the problem. I use a 50/50 mix of Triple Antibiotic
Ointment and Athletes Foot Cream (1% Clotrimazole) (for humans; over
the counter at any pharmacy). I mix it thoroughly and put it in a
60cc catheter-tip syringe (available from any vet) (The syringe may
well be more important than the cream, as it allows deep penetration
to the core of the problem). Mix the products in a Tupperware bowl,
then spoon in or 'top load' 15cc with a butter knife. I have my horse
owners treat deep into central cleft daily until no cleft is present.
No need to squirt it all over the frog; just a pea-sized dab at the
very bottom of the central sulcus. To date, I've seen it eliminate
deep, sensitive central frog clefts in 100% of cases within 2 months.
(A first, with every treatment I've ever used, though past experience
tells me we'll never find a product that works on every case in every

As you probably already know, to successfully treat an IR and/or
Cushings horse it is vital to have the proper diet, trim and enough
exercise. Exercise alone helps to reduce insulin levels quite
considerably. Cannot stress the exercise part enough :-) Best


Finally - new photos


Thanks to all of you who have been helping me out with this whole
IR/Cushings experience. Several of you asked for photos and I have
posted them on the ECHoof site under Manda:

I've also removed the hoof photos and x-rays from the photo albums
here, leaving just body shots.

I'd appreciate anything you can share as my trimmer/farrier situation
has been a bit shakey over the past year.



Re: Diet of wild horses ?

Ute <ute@...>

--- In EquineCushings@..., Carlynne Allbee
<samwisebaggins@...> wrote:

While one would be tempted to say that wild horses eat naturally and
therefore may eat more healthy than our domesticated ones....How old to
they get? Look at how many people on this list have equines over 20,
25 and even over 30 years old? Would they have lived that long
foraging in the wild?

Carlynne Allbee and Patience

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Well I have heard of wild horses un their mid twenties and in addition
I also think that the quality of life is more important to any critter
than the quantity. My point is that if our domestic horses eat and
exercise more like wild horses we would probably hardly see any
laminitis and founder cases at all and the ones we would see would
probably be mostly Cushings related. This assume that we would also
supplement in domestic settings as needed to provide optimum health to
our horses.

In my opinion prevention is always prferrable over crisis management.:-)


Re: Penny's getting a cold

Mandy Woods

Hey Sandy,
Jeffers sells sleeves for rectal palpations.....would you like me to find the order number for you? !!
You better try the rubberband/string idea or you'll be doing your first invasive procedure!
Glad Penny felt better today.
Mandy who is giggling....

Re: Complicated Founder Trim, Photos of Mel

John Stewart

Hi Eva,

I don't think it is practical to answer everything in one go.

Basic principals:
The first thing I look at in photos of feet is to see how straight the tubules are and the evenness of the growth rings. A hoof whose tubules run straight to the ground and the growth rings run evenly around the foot indicates an even spread of the forces applied to it from inside and outside. Any deviation of either of these parameters indicates the response of the hoof to uneven distribution of forces on it or in it. What we have to do is to try to work out if any of the deviations are likely to be of any significance.

Mel's feet:
From the side, we can see that the new growth right at the top of the hoof seems to be at a different angle to the older growth - certainly the front feet, but I think probably in the hinds as well.
The growth rings widen from the front of the feet to the heels.
Both of these indicative of laminitis changes.

From in front and behind, different heel heights and unlevel coronet line and growth rings wavy on the front wall.
Indicates medio-lateral imbalance.

The problem with laminitis combined with medio-lateral imbalance is that the laminal separation and instability of the bone, as well as down the front wall, will be more on the side that the pedal bone is leaning onto than the other side.

These are things to think about that you can apply to replies from others - I see Lynn has already made some good comments. I will try to add some more specific advice tomorrow.


Re: Penny's getting a cold

Sandra Su

At 9:39 PM +0000 1/13/08, Wendy Golding& Amberlee answered my question.
Thanks. I will take her temp., which I was going to do the other day,
but having recently bought a digital thermometer and not knowing how
to use it, I got instructions from someone at the barn, and then it
got too busy. I want to do it at a time when Penny can stand quietly
in the cross ties.

Today I rode for a short time. She's sound, in spite of my farrier's
fears about the rim pad. She coughed a little when I started
trotting, but it didn't seem even as bad as yesterday when the
farrier was here and she was merely standing in the cross ties. Also,
there was only a small amount of mucus in her nostrils. I went easy
on her, only riding a short time and mostly at a walk. She took issue
with a corner of the ring where there were 2 blue barrels. The last
time she was there, there was only 1 blue barrel, so of course, the
addition of another barrel made that corner very suspicious. So we
walked in circles passing those fearsome barrels till they became
boring. Then we did it in the other direction. That was the bulk of
our ride.

It'll be quieter tomorrow in the middle of the day, being a weekday,
so that'll be the perfect time for temperature taking.

One more question: this thermometer doesn't have a place to attach a
string. The woman who helped me figure out how to operate it
suggested wrapping a small rubber band tightly around the end and
using that to attach a string. Would that be secure enough? Do I even
need one, since this thermometer is wedge-shaped, with the wide end
the part I hold? You can see I'm not used to this kind of
thermometer, having always used the old-fashioned kind that's a glass
tube with mercury.

Now, for all those laughing their heads off at my ineptitude, I admit
that I'm not mechanically inclined. So, take heart, newbies who have
never cored your hay yet. I mastered that, and if I can do it, you
can, too!


Sandy Su

Sleep deprivation

Lynn Williams <lynjwilliams@...>

All animals evolved to work - us included. We are not designed to sit
on our (ever increasing) butts watching tv and eating highly
processed, high salt, high saturated fat, high sugar 'food'.

The result of this grossly unnatural lifestyle is an epidemic of
metabolic disorders - a state of disequilibrium - induced by our
lifestyle. Don't even get me started on the people who promote this to
make profits.

Because modern medicine works within a symptomatic paradigm - it
treats the symptoms and, unless there's money to be made from it,
largely ignores the causes.

Same with horses. There has been an explosion of equestrianism as a
leisure pursuit (accompanying the post-WW2 increase in leisure time
and disposable income throughout the 'developed' world), which markets
have responded to and in turn promoted. We have seen changes in the
social and cultural status of horses, from working animals to pets or
leisure accessories - and recently - problems of the locomotor system
(which, from the advent of shoeing, have been the major cause of
health problems in the horse) are being overtaken by problems of the
digestive and metabolic systems. In particular, disruptions of the
highly complex messenging and regulating neuro-endocrine and
peptidergic nervous systems.

As with us, these problems exist in a context of environmental
pollutants, social stress, mineral imbalances, poor nutrition,
inadequate rest, a sedentary lifestyle etc etc.

OK - this is a simplistic view for the purposes of illustrating a
point. Sleep deprivation in humans: too much fat, salt and sugar, too
little quality protein - too little movement - body is full of the
wrong sort of energy, not physically tired, brain is too full of
cyber-junk and the person doesn't sleep properly. The levels of
hormones that signal satiety drop off, those that promote appetite
increase. The person gets up not fully rested - physically or mentally
- and wants to eat. And so it goes - once the weight starts to pile
on, both the desire to and possibility of exercise reduce - muscular
skeletal and heart muscle damage ensure that. Vicious circle.

The person is pretty soon locked into a degenerative cycle and the
younger they go into it, the longer they are in it, the harder it is
to break - until chaos ensues and all bets are off because the system
regulators don't work according to the known rules anymore. And not
only do they not work, they have effects we cannot predict. We can do
little more than manage the symptoms - or helplessly watch the decline.

We can fully understand the cyclical and dynamic nature of this only
if we look at humans in their broad social context - same with horses.

OK - back on my hobby horse. We all know the nature of horses - herd,
prey, flight instinct, movement, trickle feeders, efficient processors
of high fibre/ low sugar forage, hierarchical (place in herd
renegotiated constantly), sleeps standing up and lies down for only a
couple of hours and flat out for less, natural posture head low etc etc.

Disruptions to those basic species requirements ALWAYS have an effect;
some effects are cumulative and increase with age; some interact and
exacerbate each other.

Disruptions to the horse's skeletal balance are at the very foundation
of its physical and mental health because, if it cannot operate its
stay apparatus or properly engage its dorsal ligaments, it cannot
fully regenerate muscles whilst upright - it has to use its propulsive
muscles constantly just to remain upright - for 90+% of its life. If,
in addition to that, it is too stressed, too insecure, too stiff to
lie down when it needs to - it is in a state of perpetual physical and
mental stress.

As a prey animal the horse hides distress very well and it manifests
in different ways according to the nature of the individual horse and
its relationships. The ones at most risk sadly - are the stoical,
kindly, gentle souls who just persevere.

For me, the consequences of an unbalanced skeleton cannot be
overstated. Far from it being the proverbial straw, they are in fact
the huge burden the horse carries all the time; and the triggers for
metabolic disorders - are the straws that break its back.

The foundation of the skeleton is the ground parallel pedal bone and
its protective shell - the hoof. And look at what we have done to the
hoof over the past 20-30 years. We've added to the catalogue of
disorders that accompany shoeing by promoting a high heel hoof form
and 'orthopaedic' shoes - as the answer to problems that are caused by

How iron-ic is that?


Re: Is Fasting standard procedure for blood draw?

Sandra Su

... the vet has asked me to have Twitter fast before the blood draw. Just making sure this is standard procedure.
It's not standard procedure. See the files for instructions on blood testing. There's also a lot of discussion on this in the files. The topic comes up periodically.

Sandy Su

Re: Is Fasting standard procedure for blood draw?

Mandy Woods

No Kerrie,
We don't advise fasting for any of the tests. For the ACTH test you want to keep her very happy, quiet and unstressed as possible to get the best reading. Have the ACTH pull first. Feed soaked hay or her regular low nsc meal. Maybe you should print off the Cornell instructions on handling the ACTH blood. You want to use a chilled purple top tube and have it centerfuged within 1-3 hours of the draw. This blood needs to be kept chilled for transport. You might take a small bucket of ice with you incase your vet doesn't think about that. The important thing on this test is the handling from the draw. If you vet has other calls to make, YOU offer to drive the chilled blood sample to the vets office for spinning! Freeze the plasma immediately.
This all sounds like a lot of work but it really isn't once you do it. You just have to get your ducks in a row! Many vets don't want to do this test because of this....
Did you already get the insulin/glucose?

Mandy and Asher in VA

My vet is doing another blood draw to send off for the ACTH and I also want her to do a complete blood panel. The first sample was "lost in shipment on it's way to Phoenix." Anyway, the vet has asked me to have Twitter fast before the blood draw. Just making sure this is standard procedure.

Re: Diet of wild horses ?

Carlynne Allbee

While one would be tempted to say that wild horses eat naturally and therefore may eat more healthy than our domesticated ones....How old to they get? Look at how many people on this list have equines over 20, 25 and even over 30 years old? Would they have lived that long foraging in the wild?

Carlynne Allbee and Patience

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Mel - trim

Lynn Williams <lynjwilliams@...>

I looked at the pics before I read the post - because I like my eye
to be unbiassed. These are the notes I made as I viewed them.
#Body shots : Sway back, croup high (weak LD and abs - dorsal ligament
not engaged); standing slightly under in front and slightly camped out
behind. Most likely heel pain in all feet. Looks stressed. Steeper
pastern RF; toe out RF. Hinds slightly toe out.
Feet pics:
LF: doesn't weight evenly; medial wall almost behind the vertical;
heels severely contracted and too long; toe too long; frog not
contacting ground; yellowy sole horn?? some substance? if not then -
wound secretion. Impact?
RF: heels too long, contracted; medial wall inside vertical. LCs
pushed up, dip at toe indicating rotation.
RH - too long overall - toe and heel; heels moderately contracted; o/s
heel longer; full bars;
LH - heels and bars too long; ditto contraction and frog contact; toe
too long; medial wall steep; lateral flared - wavy stress lines in
hoof; lateral wall and heel longer?
Needs heels and bars lowered; toe backed quite hard; address medial
bars and heel hooks as reasons for unloading. Needs to load heels,
lower pastern angle; will need muscle therapy to help adjustment to
new angles. Until he's loading the heels - and pastern /shoulder angle
returns to normal, dorsal ligament able to carry weight and allow LD
to recover - will be at risk of further laminitic episodes.#

I then read your post and was so exhausted by the end I had to have a
cup of tea. :)

The biggest problem this lad has, which will have resulted being a
'gaited' horse in the fetishistic world of equestrian showing, is
contraction - very severe LF, severe RF and moderately severe in the
hinds. When the heels are long, so are the bars; in a contracted hoof
- ie one in which the heels converge instead of diverge and do not
expand normally on weightbearing, the bars end up growing into places
they are not meant to be - very high into the hoof and/or under the
frog; there can also be a hook of heel material wedged under the frog
and bulbs that can be extremely uncomfortable - like an ingrown toe nail.

Some trimming styles advocate not attempting to trim this; some say
the internal structures of the foot(ie the digital cushion, frog and
the lateral cartilages) need to regenerate and, as they do, they will
push the heels and bars back to where they should be. The problem with
this theory in my view is that the regeneration of cartilage requires
a lot of circulation because of the way it is nourished, ie requires a
lot of movement and good circulation; good circulation requires good
hoof mechanism - ie expansion of the hoof capsule (heels opening, bars
opening and descending and sole flattening). The closer the heels are
to vertical, the less likely it is that this will happen unaided - and
if they are beyond the vertical - the opposite will happen - the heels
will converge on weightbearing and further deform the LCs and compress
the DC and frog corium.

The problem with severe contraction when the heels and bars are left
long is that long bars make the hoof capsule at the heel very
resistant to expansion - it takes a lot of impact force to get them to
move sufficiently to decontract. If the horse is comfortable enough to
load its heels and to withstand the amount of movement it needs to
decontract its feet without our intervention, that's fine - but if it
is telling you the heel is painful - by preferring to load an already
damaged toe - how can you expect it to be able to stand the sort of
impact forces necessary to decontract a rigid hoof?

So, in my view it's actually better to give it a helping hand - by
weakening the bars (just lowering and straightening them), bringing
the initial impact point of the heel down and back so the heels and
frog are level; shortening the toe (height as well as length if

As to medial-lateral imbalance - what do the xrays say?

With older horses you have to consider the need for a balanced
skeleton, without which the horse cannot engage its dorsal ligament or
operate its stay apparatus and therefore regenerate its muscles,
against the stress of postural changes. In my view - the former is so
fundamental to the horse's physical and mental health, that any
management strategy should be actively working towards it.

Others may weigh in with more detailed advice - I hope this is helpful.


Is Fasting standard procedure for blood draw?

Kerrie Regimbal <kidznhorses@...>

My vet is doing another blood draw to send off for the ACTH and I also want her to do a complete blood panel. The first sample was "lost in shipment on it's way to Phoenix." Anyway, the vet has asked me to have Twitter fast before the blood draw. Just making sure this is standard procedure.

Thank you!

Kerrie & Twitter

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Beauty (in IN) Hoof Pics

ponymays <ponymays@...>

I posted some pics of Beauty's hooves. The new ones are dated 0108 &
are not the greatest. She is very sore on her front & back end. A
couple months ago she was resting her right rear hoof more than
normal, was stocking up on that lower leg, & that hoof had some pink
on the hoof wall (bruising?). How that fits in I don't know but
the majority of the hindend soreness has to be coming from the front
hoof pain. She has the
red "squigglies" around her white line on both fronts. I had trimmed
back her toes between farrier visits(mid Dec) & this didn't help the
discomfort. She had been
standing with her front legs (from the front) coming down towards each
other, like a V shape. Her trim on Jan 3 helped that some but not
totally. She has been wearing Equine Slippers with Hoof Trax pads at
night. When I took those off in the mornings, the compression showed
the majority of weight bearing was on her heels. This last trim was
the first by a new farrier. I don't know if she's hurting (& the
damage) is from an
injury (too much running in some deep soft snow) or it's mechanical or
if it's metabolic. The new farrier commented on knowing how the trim
worked when he comes back in 4 weeks. In the meantime, I'm
frustrated. If anyone has comments on the trim I would appreciate any

Terrie & Beauty (in IN)

Re: Sleep deprivation, Was: Other matters

J Amick

Just recently I read an article about the outbreak of type 2 diabetes
in humans being in
astronomical numbers and this was brought on by sleep deprivation.
Well guess what?
Your reading a post from one! All along I've encouraged that the
lyme disease
was creating many other problems like the IR in our horses. Till the
day I die I will
say this, as I saw first hand what the lyme can do to push horses into
Cushings, IR and
iron overload, and most of these created laminitis.
I use sawdust and pine shavings in my stalls and I noted years ago of
who laid down flat out to get restful sleep, and who just stood up to
"sleep". The
shavings told the story.

jtb14789 wrote:

My Cushings/IR horse developed this sleep deprivation problem when he
contracted Lyme. The vet had no clue what was wrong with him. I came
across the Equus article & it answered a lot of questions I had.

Maybe not directly related to Cushings/IR, but we do seem to have a
significant number of members on the board who's horses subsequently
develop Lyme.


Re: Diet of wild horses ?

Ute <ute@...>

Yes, thank you _ I have been to her website, but have not been able to
locate anything specific in this regard. I also sent her an e-mail with
the same question :-)

I know for example that British ponies have been observed eating gorse,
a relative of the scotch broom, but that's all I know besides observing
my own horse in his pasture eatig firs, the dropped flower stalks of
the OR Big Leaf Maple trees, a trillium flower and he nibbled on some
odd ornamental thistle that started growing in his pasture last year. :-


Re: is this diet ok

twinkle_and_amber <kelly111@...>

oh god shes off of that!


Re: Diet of wild horses ?

John Stewart

Subject: [EquineCushings] Diet of wild horses ?

Katy Watts gave a presentation at the Laminitis Conference in Florida in November "What do feral horses eat?" I haven't checked her website to see if it is on there. The notes we received were very brief, the "proceedings" having been lost in the post.


Evitex AND Pergolide? REPOST

mannequin2d <nobst@...>

Hi group: I had asked this a few days ago but didn't receive any
replies on ground or whole berries vs. liquid. Would anyone know?
Thanks so much.

--- In EquineCushings@..., "mannequin2d" <nobst@...> wrote:

Hi Cindy: I ordered the Evitex (brand liquid) this morning but after
your post went to the Herbalcom website to see that the chasteberry
powder is astonishingly less expensive than the liquid, based on
feeding costs! So now of course am wondering about quality as related
to price? Would anyone be able to advise me why the liquid would be
much more expensive? Thank you, Wendy.

Re: Can you please look at my photo album?

Ute <ute@...>

Her stance is not normal, if she always stands like that, but usually
if a horse has laminitis and founders, the front legs are also
stretched out in front to relieve the toes. Is there any pulse and a
lot of heat in her front feet?

She does need a correct trim asap though! That alone might bring her
the comfort she desperately needs. I'll PM you with names of trimmers
in your area. Best wishes!!


Re: Can you please look at my photo album?

Cindy McGinley

"luckycharmfarm" <LuckyCharmFarm@...> asked:

i just wonder about that stance? the rounded rear end and tucked in?
is that a laminitis stance or am i just paranoid (a little knowlege
is a bad thing!).
I went and looked again because I thought in the first pictures she wasn't standing that way, and I wasn't nuts after all: it doesn't look to me that she was standing that way in the pictures where she's dry (or the first wet picture). I thought she was standing like that because she was cold from being wet (and her hooves are long). She does look quite post-legged behind, which combined with the length of hoof may be contributing to that under stance.

the hooves are all choppy and uneven but i was looking at the
difference in coloring at the tops. a lighter band (1") at the top of
the hoof. does that have anything to do with laminitis? (a little
knowlege is a bad thing).
White-hooved horses always show lots of variations in color. The one hoof shows a dish and a flare (I don't recall which one), but that could just be from length and can be corrected with trim. Not a big deal, so I didn't mention it before.

and yes, you all arent the right ones to ask! lol.
Let me put it this way (after a lifetime of horse experience): if I was looking for a horse for kids, I would not let this one go. Yes, she's a bit more aged than we like to buy them, but she looks in good shape for her age, and she's a rescue, so you're also doing her a favor. As I've said before here, when taking on an aged horse, you're always taking a chance. But this mare seems to have no more problems than many horses her age, and fewer than some. And what horse, regardless of age, ever comes with a guarantee?

- Cindy and Alf (and entourage) in NY

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