Date   

Re: Diet of wild horses ?

aptly_asked <aptly_asked@...>
 

Ute,

You can't even begin to compare a feral / wild horse with that of a Thoroughbred - doing so isn't the wisest thing in the world. There are plenty of mechanical differences as well as physiological ones. It's like comparing a miniature horse to a shire.

Paul.

Ute wrote:

Also, Pete Ramey mentions in his DVDs that wild horses are not known to founder. In addition, there's a documented story of a stallion who had a break in one of his front legs. He actually healed completely and had to be caught to get the hoof trimmed on the leg that was broken beore, since he had not used it normally. Yet Barbaro foundered with all the medical support he could possibly get.
Ute


Re: Coastal Blend and West Coast Hay

papballou <PapBallou@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Anne M. Clarkson"
<katzpa92@...> wrote:

What size are your bales? Do you mean square bales or round bales at
$20.25
because our round bales are $40.00 a bale and the square bales are
only $7
50 a bale.
Well, haven't seen a round bale around here - a bale as I refer to it
is square, well, rectangle and about 110 - 120 pounds or so. When I
used the word *stick*, I meant that a few people stick to feeding only
alf - it's about $17 a bale.

Linda in NV


Re: Complicated Founder Trim, Photos of Mel

John Stewart
 

Hello Eva again,

Concerns about methods of new farrier:

I don't think that cutting a notch between the heel and frog can do anything. I have heard that some people will "open" the heel, which

involves cutting away the horn right at the heels. The effect of this is to remove the direct connection between the hoof wall at the heel and the bar.

The intention is that the wall, not restricted by its connection to the bar, will be able to expand outwards.

The faint vertical lines of blood in the white line at the toe are most likely to have followed a laminitis episode, but this would usually not be

evident for 4 - 6weeks after. This would coincide with the change in angle seen near the top of the hoof wall, although this does not seem to fit into

the timescale of her lameness.

Scooping the sole is usually not a good idea because, in a chronic laminitic, the tip of the pedal bone will often be resting on the sole and

the sole will often be thinner than it should be. If there is sufficient sole then it can be thinned. The farrier would have to judge this by

palpation (or x rays).

Cutting a groove in the hoof wall.

The extreme of this is a hoof wall resection, removing the dorsal hoof wall, exposing the separated laminae and taking pressure off the new growth. This

has gone out of fashion.

Chris Pollitt at the last Laminitis Conference in Florida recently, proposed that the horn growth from distorted coronary papillae, because it could not

grow down as it should, actually pushed the pedal bone away from the hoof wall. some people are now removing a section of the separated wall near the

top of the front wall. It sounds as though your farrier's grooving is trying to do this in a similar, but less dramatic, way.

I wouldn't personally suggest doing this, but I do not think that it would do any harm. I don't happen to agree with this Dr Pollitt idea.

I will have a go at the TRIM Questions tomorrow.

John


Re: New equine research from UC Davis

cjspackman
 

For those wishing to read about these studies and many others I just
found a link to the research review online

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/CEH/pubs-RR07.htm

I was reading a hard copy. The Review is written for the lay audience
so it is easy to read.

Clair


Re: Coastal Blend and West Coast Hay

Anne M. Clarkson <katzpa92@...>
 

Thanks for all the information, this is a great help. I keep a bag feed
here that is 10% and I can mix that with some square bale hay and feed that
to Bertha until I get this emergency diet started.

AA

-------Original Message-------

From: Sandra Su
Date: 1/14/2008 5:38:57 PM
To: EquineCushings@...
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re:Coastal Blend and West Coast Hay
When you buy hay, if it's been tested already, ask for a copy
of the hay test. If it hasn't been tested, you need to get it tested
so you can see the sugar (ESC) and starch levels. When you add them
together, they should equal 10% or less. You can also use the hay
test for info to balance nutrients the hay is lacking (and they all
lack something). Then you supplement those, so the diet is balanced
to the hay.
Until you find out the sugar and starch in your hay, you
probably should soak it, though that'd be hard to do with a round
bale.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...





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Re: Coastal Blend and West Coast Hay

Anne M. Clarkson <katzpa92@...>
 

What size are your bales? Do you mean square bales or round bales at $20.25
because our round bales are $40.00 a bale and the square bales are only $7
50 a bale. Oh and what is a stick of alfalfa? We don't get grass in bales
here just hay and straw but we tend to have the same problems as you with
the feed situation and feeding what everyone else is feeding.

AA

-------Original Message-------

From: papballou
Date: 1/14/2008 6:14:05 PM
To: EquineCushings@...
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: Coastal Blend and West Coast Hay

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Anne M. Clarkson"
<katzpa92@...> wrote:

Whoa!! No wonder you folks out west are having so many problems with the
diet control.
Well, I'm way out west as well. Just about everyone I know feeds a
grass - timothy, orchard or meadow. Some buy an alf/grass mix, and a
few stick only with alf - mostly because it's cheaper than grass.
(Grass is $20.25 a bale now). Feed stores stay busy selling lots of
specialty bagged feeds. When I boarded, there was the tendency to
feed whatever someone else was feeding by way of specialty feeds
because you wanted to always be feeding the best...not realizing it
might not be the best for your horse.

But our growing conditions seem to ensure a higher than desired ESC +
starch situation. Clouds in the summer? Rain? Cool days? Nope...

Linda



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Re: Coastal Blend and West Coast Hay

Joan and Dazzle
 

You've got it now AA.

Cushings disease is caused by a benign adenoma of the pituitary
gland. It happens primarily in older horses. As horses age, their
pituitaries enlarge. Cushings disease is treated with pergolide. In
early stages, it can be treated with Chastetree berry.

Insulin resistance is caused by metabolic disturbances and the
inability to handle glucose appropriately. Other causes can be
uncontrolled Cushings Disease or iron overload. Insulin resistance
is treated with diet. Primarily low sugar, starch, fat. But also,
mineral balanced.

Some horses that have Cushings disease go on to get insulin
resistance. In the past, vets would frequently think that they were
both the same thing. They're not.

Our list philosophy is DDT/Es - Diagnosis, Diet, Trim, Exercise (if
able).

Diagnosis: As you can see, since they are different and treated
differently, it's handy to know exactly what you're working with. We
suggest getting an ACTH test done to determine Cushings. We also
suggest getting an insulin and glucose test done to determine
insulin resistance. Upon getting the blood results, you will know
how to better proceed with a treatment plan.

Diet: We suggest a low sugar, starch, fat diet that is mineral
balanced. The only way that you can know for sure what's inside your
hay is to test it. Sometimes "crappy" hay is high in sugar. And
surprisingly, sometimes "lush" hay is low in sugar. You can't tell
from the outside. Some people have said that to lower the sugar and
starches in the diet, to add fat. In fact that does. However, it's
been shown that increased fats actually cause insulin resistance.

Trim: The hoof gurus to jump in here. We recommend a balanced trim
with heels down and toes back.

Exercise: Exercise helps with insulin utilization and glucose
handling. We NEVER recommend that a person exercise a laminitic
horse. Additional damage can occur to already-compromised hooves. We
do recommend regular exercise for the horses that can do it.

If you have any more questions, please feel free to ask.

Joan and Dazzle

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Anne M. Clarkson"
<katzpa92@...> wrote:

so what you are saying is that it isn't
that she got it because of what she ate but what she is eating can
make it
worse.


Re: draft horses

Anne M. Clarkson <katzpa92@...>
 

Hi Lavinia, yes I am learning more every day, about the "Daffy Drafty".
After visiting the site last night and seeing all the information about
lamintitis and white lines I wanted to go out today and get a good look at
Bertha's feet. I figured that if she had any problems I might be able to
tell by the way she moved, if it was really bad, or by the way they looked
or smelled. Well of course after thinking about it all night I was sure I
was going to go out there find that she had gone lame all around and was
tender on all four feet. I just knew I was a bad horse Mama and that she
would fall over and shake four great big Bertha feet at me and bemoan the
terrible treatment she was suffering under my care. HAH! That big stinker!
If she has sore feet then I am Hillary Clinton! I figured I would just
walk up to her at the hay bale, her usual location of choice, and slip a
lead line on her then take her to the front of the field and clean her feet.
That brat took off and I spent the next 45 minutes trying to catch her
fuzzy butt while she played keep away and chased my Spotted Saddle Horse,
who, by the way, is 17 hands and no slouch at running all over the pasture.
I finally resorted to treats to catch her.
Well, at least tonight I can sleep better, if not because I know her feet
are fine then because I am exhausted from running to Hell and back.

AA

-------Original Message-------

From: laviniamfiscaletti
Date: 1/14/2008 1:53:28 PM
To: EquineCushings@...
Subject: [EquineCushings] draft horses

Hi Ann, I have a draft cross-Nappi-who is IR/Cushings. He's had a much
shaggier coat the last 2 years but tested negative until mid-2007.
Luckily, he's never foundered but he has had stretch white lines in the
past. These big boys (and girls) are a trip! Welcome to the list and
all the wonderful folks on it.

Lavinia, Nappi and George



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Re: Shredded Beet Pulp without molasses

Anne M. Clarkson <katzpa92@...>
 

Just checked and I was wrong, the shredded pulp here does have molasses
added in the small print, you were absolutely right. Right now that is good
because we are feeding it to a 25yr old Arab that always drops weight in
the winter. Right now she looks like we starve her. All our other horses
are "well rounded" and in wonderful full coats even Bertha but though Teja
eats the same food as everyone else she just does not put on the weight in
the winter. So I have her in a separate pen right next to the big pasture
so she can gossip with the girls, and I have her on a special diet. She
gets her own bale of hay every two days and an additional night time feed of
hot, wet beet pulp with a dash of honey, oats and a weight supplement, she
has gained 50 lbs. We still would like to have about another 100lbs on her
over the next few months but if she just maintains the weight she has I will
be happy.

AA

-------Original Message-------

From: Larson
Date: 1/14/2008 4:34:34 PM
To: EquineCushings@...
Subject: Re: [EquineCushings] Re: Shredded Beet Pulp without molasses

Ann, even if it says "No molasses added" there is molasses - used to
keep dust down, I believe - so it all needs to be rinsed, and rinsed
again. One of the eye-openers on this list is how misleading labels
can be - many members have taken the time and money to have feeds
tested. The lab reports can differ hugely from the stuff on the labels.

Carol and Blue in Maine

At 02:25 PM 1/14/2008, you wrote:

Wow, they make it with molasses? Never heard of it here.




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Re: Coastal Blend and West Coast Hay

papballou <PapBallou@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Anne M. Clarkson"
<katzpa92@...> wrote:

Whoa!! No wonder you folks out west are having so many problems with the
diet control.
Well, I'm way out west as well. Just about everyone I know feeds a
grass - timothy, orchard or meadow. Some buy an alf/grass mix, and a
few stick only with alf - mostly because it's cheaper than grass.
(Grass is $20.25 a bale now). Feed stores stay busy selling lots of
specialty bagged feeds. When I boarded, there was the tendency to
feed whatever someone else was feeding by way of specialty feeds
because you wanted to always be feeding the best...not realizing it
might not be the best for your horse.

But our growing conditions seem to ensure a higher than desired ESC +
starch situation. Clouds in the summer? Rain? Cool days? Nope...

Linda


Re: Diet of wild horses ?

Barb Peck <egroups1bp@...>
 

Your post drives home the fact (which we are aware of on this list)
that horses evolved to extract nutrition out of fairly poor fodder..
and that fed like cows- and kept confined- isn't the best thing for
them.

The latter part of your post ( hindgut microbial populations ) has
been of great interest to me lately- because after 40 years with
horses- I have my first (real) pony - even though he's 15:2
(Connemara).

He's never had sweet feed ( his pic is in the files at 3 YO ) in his
life. He's 6 now - and when he hit 5 YO he started to gain weight
(calaories wern't going into growing anymore) and his G;I ratio was a
warning I already was heeding.

I have been able to keep him pastured in summer (he's a very high
energy horse - Ooops pony) and he get's plenty of exercise. during
summer I have him on Uckele's EQ and he gets low sugar hay in winter
and a mic os TC lite and Blue Seal Carb Guard. He's happy.

His poop looks and smells different in summer. (I don't mean the
normal changes between hay and grass- this is something different I
can't put my finger on) I haven't decided if thats a good or bad
thing yet- but I don't know what it should be different. I think it
has to do with the flora...

So. Thanks for that link.

Barb

--- In EquineCushings@..., "cjspackman" <c.thunes@...>
wrote IN PART:
Plus a comparison between light horse breeds and feral horses hindgut
micorbial populations;
http://www.springerlink.com/content/u405ulv6230566x2/

Clair


Re: Coastal Blend and West Coast Hay

Anne M. Clarkson <katzpa92@...>
 

Whoa!! No wonder you folks out west are having so many problems with the
diet control. I buy sweet feed for my horses to mix with their regular
stuff in the summer and in the winter but I use it sparingly and only after
we start to run out of hay. Most of the grain feed here is a mix of 10 to
12 percent sweet if you buy the sweet feed. We mix it wet with the regular
feed in the summer and feed it dry in the winter.

AA

-------Original Message-------

From: Susan
Date: 1/14/2008 4:49:53 PM
To: EquineCushings@...
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: Coastal Blend and West Coast Hay

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Anne M. Clarkson"
<katzpa92@...> wrote:


what type of feed or hay could Bertha
have been on out on the West Coast to give her Cushings?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anne, I live in southern California, and alfalfa and bermuda is the
typical diet along with bagged sweet feed with grain. Makes me cringe!
The best to you and your new girl!
Susan





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Re: Coastal Blend and West Coast Hay

Cindy McGinley
 

"Anne M. Clarkson" <katzpa92@...> wrote:

Okay, huge duh here, thanks Cindy, so what you are saying is that it isn't
that she got it because of what she ate but what she is eating can make it
worse. Did I get that right?

What she eats can make her *Insulin Resistance* worse, if she has that as well. And yes, Cushings and IR often go hand-in-hand, so most of us also give our Cushings horses an IR diet. But, only the recommended blood work will tell you definitively if she has either or both. So to be on the safe side before the bloodwork, we usually start everyone on the emergency diet right away.

No worries. Learning is an adventure. :-)

- Cindy and Alf (and entourage) in NY
(Off to dance class now)


Re: Coastal Blend and West Coast Hay

Sandra Su
 

At 9:18 PM +0000 1/14/08, Anne M. Clarkson wrote:
I have a wonderful vet who has agreed to come out next month to test
her for the disease [Cushing's] but in the mean time I am trying to
better understand this illness.
Read up on the testing protocols so you get the right test --
ACTH -- for Cushing's. You also might want to have the vet draw blood
for glucose and insulin tests. From the results of those, you can
calculate the glucose:insulin ratio and find out if your mare also is
IR. Often the hormonal imbalances of Cushing's provoke IR, too. And
get a thyroid test.

what type of feed or hay could Bertha have been on out on the West
Coast to give her Cushings?
Feed doesn't give a horse Cushing's. Cushing's is an adenoma
(benign tumor) of the pituitary gland. It happens as horses get
older, and I think no one knows why some horses get it and others
don't.
IR can be provoked by a diet too high in sugar and starch.

I don't believe she came from a farm that spent any large amount of
money keeping their horses in condition so I would assume they fed
them primarily a poorer grade of hay.
As is often said here, the quality of hay doesn't necessarily
tell you the sugar and starch in it. However, some horses don't do
well on alfalfa, so just in case your mare is one of them, it's
probably better not to feed alfalfa.

I want to know so that I steer clear of anything close to that when I buy.
When you buy hay, if it's been tested already, ask for a copy
of the hay test. If it hasn't been tested, you need to get it tested
so you can see the sugar (ESC) and starch levels. When you add them
together, they should equal 10% or less. You can also use the hay
test for info to balance nutrients the hay is lacking (and they all
lack something). Then you supplement those, so the diet is balanced
to the hay.
Until you find out the sugar and starch in your hay, you
probably should soak it, though that'd be hard to do with a round
bale.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...


Re: Diet of wild horses ?

Ute <ute@...>
 

Thank you very much Claire!!

Here are some links that discuss what wild horses have been found to
eat;

http://www.blm.gov/or/districts/lakeview/plans/files/PokegamaHMAP.pdf

http://www.jstor.org/view/00384909/ap060110/06a00160/0

Plus a comparison between light horse breeds and feral horses hindgut
micorbial populations;
http://www.springerlink.com/content/u405ulv6230566x2/

Clair


Re: Coastal Blend and West Coast Hay

Anne M. Clarkson <katzpa92@...>
 

Okay, huge duh here, thanks Cindy, so what you are saying is that it isn't
that she got it because of what she ate but what she is eating can make it
worse. Did I get that right?

AA and the wrecking crew

-------Original Message-------

From: Cindy L. McGinley
Date: 01/14/08 17:24:32
To: EquineCushings@...
Subject: Re: [EquineCushings] Coastal Blend and West Coast Hay

"Anne M. Clarkson" <katzpa92@...> wrote:
I read the required reading and found it fascinating and very informative
and since it isn't a genetic disorder what type of feed or hay could
Bertha
have been on out on the West Coast to give her Cushings?

Anne, I think you are confusing Cushings and Insulin Resistance. That's
okay, it happens a lot. Nothing Bertha ate could give her Cushings. Cushings
(PPID) is a disease of the pituitary gland that usually occurs in older
horses. It has its own set of symptoms and can be diagnosed with an ACTH
blood test. And while Cushings is sometimes a primary cause of Insulin
Resistance, Insulin Resistance does not cause Cushings. Nor does any kind of
feed or hay. And Cushings must be treated with medicine. Pergolide is the
drug of choice.

- Cindy and Alf (and entourage) in NY




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Re: Shredded Beet Pulp without molasses

Ute <ute@...>
 

I can get pelleted without molasses here, but so far not the shredded
kind, which I would prefer.The shredded variety available here is
doused with molasses.

Ute

Wow, they make it with molasses? Never heard of it here. I don't
know how
cost affective it is to ship but Tractor Supply sells it in the 50lb
bag
here on the East Coast. If you can't find it you might try on line.

AA


Re: Coastal Blend and West Coast Hay

Cindy McGinley
 

"Anne M. Clarkson" <katzpa92@...> wrote:
I read the required reading and found it fascinating and very informative
and since it isn't a genetic disorder what type of feed or hay could Bertha
have been on out on the West Coast to give her Cushings?

Anne, I think you are confusing Cushings and Insulin Resistance. That's okay, it happens a lot. Nothing Bertha ate could give her Cushings. Cushings (PPID) is a disease of the pituitary gland that usually occurs in older horses. It has its own set of symptoms and can be diagnosed with an ACTH blood test. And while Cushings is sometimes a primary cause of Insulin Resistance, Insulin Resistance does not cause Cushings. Nor does any kind of feed or hay. And Cushings must be treated with medicine. Pergolide is the drug of choice.

- Cindy and Alf (and entourage) in NY


Re: New equine research from UC Davis

Larson <seahorses3@...>
 

Claire, thank you for this - I hope when it is published, someone can post a link. My vet has said that drafts tend to run a bit lower on hemoglobin that most horses. Since I have NO science, I hope that's the right word.

Yes, folks, drafts ARE different! Blue would say better, but all horses are a gift.

Carol and Big Blue in Maine

At 05:15 PM 1/14/2008, you wrote:

I was recently reading UC Davis' 2007 equine research review and
thought some of you might find the following interesting.

1) Work by Joseph Zinkl and Gregory Ferraro establishing normal ranges
of commonly analyzed blood values for Draft horses.


Re: Questions re salt and vitamin E

Sandra Su
 

At 9:18 PM +0000 1/14/08, Merdy wrote:
I seem to recall reading that one should feed plain salt rather than
iodized salt if using the ODTB.
Right. I was corrected when I thought it was iodized salt, so
feed plain, non-iodized salt with ODTB cubes.

My mare has now decided that the vitamin E capsules are intolerable
I don't know about heat, though warm water, about body
temperature, should be fine, since the vit. E will be in a body
anyway. What I did that worked was to cut the gel cap in 2 with
scissors. That seemed to solve the problem with Penny. Of course,
she wound up not wanting to eat anything with her supplements in it,
but I think the most offensive thing was the copper. I don't recall
any problems with her eating vit. E when it was cut.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...

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