Date   

Re: Diet of wild horses ?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Ute wrote:
Also, Pete Ramey mentions in his DVDs that wild horses are not
known
to founder.
Like all forms of life, horses are a product of the niche in which they
developed. Those prone to laminitis within their ecological system
would be quickly weeded out of the gene pool by natural selection.
Those that survive within the system will have a metabolism, hoof form,
size, etc. that is most advantageous to their survival within that
environment. However, those conditions would be most suitable only to
those horses. A Shetland pony under the same conditions might fatten
and founder, while a Thoroughbred might starve. There is a world of
difference between breeds, in particular between those that remain true
to their ancestry and those that have been selective bred by man for
many generations. Even within general types there is a wide variation -
Hackney ponies versus the Shetland for example.

In addition, there's a documented story of a stallion who
had a break in one of his front legs. He actually healed completely
and had to be caught to get the hoof trimmed on the leg that was
broken beore, since he had not used it normally. Yet Barbaro
foundered with all the medical support he could possibly get.
Barbaro's fracture completely shattered the bones of his fetlock joint.
There is no way on earth any horse in the wild would survive an injury
of that magnitude. Barbaro's laminitis was likely both mechanical and
metabolic. Maybe in the future we will be able to prevent that
complication - and maybe not. The mechanical factors alone are a major
hurdle.

Eleanor


Re: Glucosamine, Was: is this diet ok

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

This is the study from 2006 that seemed to put fears about oral
glucosamine to rest:

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/55/11/3142

Then this one came along last June and raised concern again:

Am J Med Sci. 2007 Jun;333(6):333-9. Links
Oral glucosamine in doses used to treat osteoarthritis worsens
insulin resistance.Pham T, Cornea A, Blick KE, Jenkins A, Scofield RH.
Endocrinology Division, Department of Medicine, University of
Oklahoma Health Science Center, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, USA.

BACKGROUND: Glucosamine is used to treat osteoarthritis. In animals,
the compound is known to cause insulin resistance, the underlying
abnormality in type 2 diabetes mellitus. Insulin resistance in humans
taking oral glucosamine in doses used for osteoarthritis has not been
studied. METHODS: Volunteer human subjects (n = 38) without known
abnormality of glucose homeostasis had fasting serum glucose,
insulin, and lipids determined before and after taking 1500 mg
glucosamine by mouth every day for 6 weeks. Fasting insulin and
glucose were used to calculate homeostasis model assessment (HOMA-IR)
and quantitative insulin sensitivity check index (QUICKI). Vascular
elasticity was measured by pulse wave analysis. The paired Student's
t test was used to compare baseline with posttreatment values.
Pearson's correlation was used to determine the relation of baseline
HOMA-IR with changes in other variables. RESULTS: We found a rise in
HOMA-IR after 6 weeks of glucosamine (2.8 versus 3.2, P < 0.04). The
fall in HOMA-IR among the subjects was statistically related to a
higher baseline HOMA-IR by Pearson's correlation(P < 0.01). A rise in
serum triglycerides and a rise in LDL cholesterol were statistically
related to baseline HOMA-IR. Small artery elasticity fell, and the
decrease was higher in those with the highest baseline HOMA-IR.
CONCLUSIONS: Notwithstanding its efficacy remaining in question,
glucosamine is widely used as treatment for osteoarthritis, which is
a condition associated with both obesity and type 2 diabetes
mellitus. Our data indicate that persons with underlying poorer
insulin sensitivity are at risk for worsening insulin resistance and
vascular function with the use of glucosamine in doses used to treat
osteoarthritis.
===========================

The bulk of the oral studies found no effect.

We have had members in the past report problems with it. There are
also IR horses on it without problems. The bottom line has to be
caution.

You're right that glucosamine in combination with chondroitin has
been shown to be superior. From a symptomatic standpoint, I don't see
any obvious benefit from the combo over glucosamine alone in most
horses, and glucosamine definitely has a better effect on symptoms.

Corta-Flx liquid is in a sugary base, but it works better than the
pellets. Corta-Flx is partially "digested" chondroitin.

While it's certainly possible to have both laminitis and arthritis
elsewhere, if a horse is laminitic most of the owner complaints about
arthritis-like symptoms disappear or greatly reduce when the foot
pain is resolved.

Absolutely right that with conformtion issues a joint supplement
alone is not going to get the job done. Meticulous hoof care by
someone very skilled in working with horses like this is critical.

Eleanor


Re: pergolide study

ponyjackpal <takarri@...>
 

Check the files on purchase and shelf
life information on the different formats with the Pergolide. Many
phamacies do not have the up to date information Ian Hudgings has
provided for us.
Angela
jarrahbrearebreazebridie
Appreciae the advice- I will follow it up
Thank you again for your help
Pauline & Jack


Re: Diet of wild horses ?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

My clone is on vacation so I'm a bit behind. If there's anything from
the weekend I should see please toss me a post number.

--- In EquineCushings@..., "cjspackman" <c.thunes@...>
wrote:
The 2
year old pony is obese but has not foundered yet much to my
surprise.

Although they do sometimes get laminitic that young, especially
ponies, it's an interesting observation that most genetically IR
horses don't start having laminitis problems until they have stopped
growing completely.

The vets thinking was that
this pony had learned to eat practically 24 hours a day because the
grazing was so poor and even on improved grazing and restricted hay
his metabolism did not adjust.
Insulin resistance and the ability to gain weight on very sparse
diets is a survival advantage to these hardy breeds. Same for their
small size. All horses spend most of their time eating if food is
available. With live vegetation being 75 to 80+% water, they have to.


Now I'm in the US I have owned a BLM mustang how came off the range
as
a 2 year old from the Lassen HMA. He was very over weight(vet
guessed
300-400 lbs although I thought that was an exaggeration) but to my
knowledge had always been sound. I had the hardest time getting
weight off him even feeding him 1.5% of ideal body weight it was as
if
his metabolism reduced.
It does. Their IR worsens if calorie intake is too low. I'm starting
to wonder too if gut fill has anything to do with this. There are
interactions between hormones from the intestinal tract and insulin.
The horse's digestive tract is designed to have a constant trickle
from the stomach and small bowel into the colon. It would be very
interesting to see the effects of feeding the same amount of
calories, with the same diet composition, divided into two large
feedings a day versus multiple small ones.

Eleanor


Re: pergolide study

brearebreazybridie
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "ponyjackpal" <takarri@...>
wrote:
... Ian has written some wonderful articles on this exact
concern. The powdered beside expiry date issues.
I thought it might be the water based that there were issues with?
....Both has issues, can not remember the exact differences just the
shelf life is NOT nearly as long as the powdered and you have to be
more particular in how you store. Check the files on purchase and shelf
life information on the different formats with the Pergolide. Many
phamacies do not have the up to date information Ian Hudgings has
provided for us.
Angela
jarrahbrearebreazebridie


Re: pergolide study

ponyjackpal <takarri@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "jarrahbrearebreazebridie"
<jarrah@...> wrote:

--- In EquineCushings@..., "ponyjackpal" <takarri@>
wrote:

Hi Pauline
our pergolide has a "syrup" base of now I am going to question- &
has
a longish (6mths) use by date.
Cause for concern?
Yes, two weeks is the standard as it loses its strenght after that.
Can
you purchase the powdered this is 6 months, or the tabs. Check the
files for who sells Pergolide. Also type in for information on
Pergolide. Ian has written some wonderful articles on this exact
concern. Also if I.R. a concern syrup is not a good choice and very
exspensive in comaprison to the powdered beside expiry date issues.
Angela
jarrahbrearebreazebridie
I thought it might be the water based that there were issues with?
I do now have access to a compound pharmacist( again in Vic) that I
am going to check with- I still have 2 bottles of pergolide to get
through & at the moment (touch wood) Jack is the best he has ever
been. & one day I will attempt to fill in a file.
thanks again
Pauline & Jack


Re: looking for old post( a bit long)

ponyjackpal <takarri@...>
 

Australia is to contact your local Kentucky Equine Research
representative (Toll Free : 1800 772 198 or Website www "dot"
ker "dot" com You collect your hay sample and send to them and they
have arrangement with Equi-Analytical in USA, they send it off for
you and then contact you with results all for the very low price of
$50 Australian dollars. Ask for the trainer #603 profile.
The WA rep's name is Cilla Kuiper.
Hope this helps.
Angela
jarrahbrearebreazebridie
thank you
]have sent hay off- got a KER rep in Victoria that organised all the
paperwork & permits for me. They could not have been more helpful 7
looking forward to results.
will follow up bloods in WA if I have no lucj
Cheers
Pauline & Jack


Re: pergolide study

brearebreazybridie
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "ponyjackpal" <takarri@...>
wrote:
Pauline
Ian who is a pharmacist/chemist also I created a document that is in
the "Files" section
of the group called "Pergolide Forms and Stability" that has a lot
more information on the pros and cons of the various forms of this
medication. Here is a link to the page with the file-
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/Drugs%2C%
20Pergolide%2C%&#92;20Cushings%20Disease%20Treatments/or
http://tinyurl.com/2alwqb
or type in Ian Hudgings Pergolide and this should bring the information
up in the messages.

Angela
jarrahbrearebreazebridie


Re: pergolide study

brearebreazybridie
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "ponyjackpal" <takarri@...>
wrote:

Hi Pauline
our pergolide has a "syrup" base of now I am going to question- & has
a longish (6mths) use by date.
Cause for concern?
Yes, two weeks is the standard as it loses its strenght after that. Can
you purchase the powdered this is 6 months, or the tabs. Check the
files for who sells Pergolide. Also type in for information on
Pergolide. Ian has written some wonderful articles on this exact
concern. Also if I.R. a concern syrup is not a good choice and very
exspensive in comaprison to the powdered beside expiry date issues.
Angela
jarrahbrearebreazebridie


Re: looking for old post( a bit long)

brearebreazybridie
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "ponyjackpal" <takarri@...>
wrote:

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Kathleen Gustafson"
<katmando@> wrote:
---
Could be:

Glucose tolerance test - instead get glucose and insulin from the
same
draw
vets to ring the lab as the pathologists bamboozled me- & she was
told that testing for insulin resistance ( via pathologist from
Iddexx labs - Oz) said that it is a very involved test- they've
never done it & it would be costly & the accuracy isn't good. They
would need blood every 15 mins for 3 hours. Mind you this was the
dog protocol - which we are well adversed to, & they didn't have one
for horses but said it was the same?- This can't be right. I must
not be asking correctly for what I want. Is someone able to put
words into my mouth?
Jack is not IR as far as I am aware & after studyong these files
for
so long, just about every horse I see now has "issues"- but I would
like to know where we stand
Regarding ACTH stimulation testing- I read in our files that it
requires a single blood draw- yet to do one here it requires 2
blood draws - take the first blood- inject a product called
Synacthen & then take another blood 1 hour after.- Again a dog
protocol- but was told that this is what is done in horses or the
low dose dex test- which they do have a horse protocol for- there is
NO way I am going there..
I do have a horse vet from another practice who is right into this
& gave her last lecture on Cushings- however, she has been away &
I'd rather ask dumb questions to you guys( no one can see me) & then
sound confident when I discuss it with colleagues!!

much thanks
pauline & jack
Maybe contact Dr Monique Robinson BVMS (Hons)
edgefarm @ aapt . net . au (take the spaces out!)
She states she only has information on WA but expect the other states
would be similar.There are 2 laboratories in WA, Vetpath and Murdoch
University.They can test endogenous ACTH, glucose, insulin, throid
panels and triglycerides.
No Australian lab that can test iron panels as yet. I am looking into
whether this may be possible via USA (c/- Vetpath labs) and am
working with the pathologist there to this end. All vets in WA can
send blood to Vetpath Laboratories. If anyone has trouble in WA they
can contact me and I will arrange blood testing for them via Vetpath.
Hay testing / Feed testing in general is not done alot yet in
Australia.Only 1 lab in NSW (University of New England) can test NSC
levels. They have to run these in single batches... the cost is
phenomenal!!. It is suggested the best way to get hay tested here in
Australia is to contact your local Kentucky Equine Research
representative (Toll Free : 1800 772 198 or Website www "dot"
ker "dot" com You collect your hay sample and send to them and they
have arrangement with Equi-Analytical in USA, they send it off for
you and then contact you with results all for the very low price of
$50 Australian dollars. Ask for the trainer #603 profile.
The WA rep's name is Cilla Kuiper.
Hope this helps.
Angela
jarrahbrearebreazebridie


pergolide study

ponyjackpal <takarri@...>
 

HI again
Now I've gone into overdrive with reading files & came across this
http://www.ranvet.com.au/cushings.htm
This is the place that is supplying my pergolide at present-have only
just found it - & of course, as is my true nature haven't read through
it thoroughly,but at the mention of dst- panicked.
our pergolide has a "syrup" base of now I am going to question- & has a
longish (6mths) use by date.
Cause for concern?
Cheers
Pauline & Jack


Re: Shredded Beet Pulp without molasses

rv6@...
 

A feed store in Oroville, Ca. where I live, carries Nutrena brand beet pulp without molases--Have you called Nutrena?.

Cathy


Re: looking for old post( a bit long)

ponyjackpal <takarri@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Kathleen Gustafson"
<katmando@...> wrote:
---
Could be:

Glucose tolerance test - instead get glucose and insulin from the
same
draw

Dexamethazone suppression test - instead get ACTH

Cortisol - instead get ACTH

Ring any bells?

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
HI
thanks to all for info- almost rings a bell. But creates more
questions.
I am a vet nurse of too many years- but deal with "smallies" &
reptiles- & I understand the concept...but.....I got one of our nice
vets to ring the lab as the pathologists bamboozled me- & she was
told that testing for insulin resistance ( via pathologist from
Iddexx labs - Oz) said that it is a very involved test- they've never
done it & it would be costly & the accuracy isn't good. They would
need blood every 15 mins for 3 hours. Mind you this was the dog
protocol - which we are well adversed to, & they didn't have one for
horses but said it was the same?- This can't be right. I must not be
asking correctly for what I want. Is someone able to put words into
my mouth?
Jack is not IR as far as I am aware & after studyong these files for
so long, just about every horse I see now has "issues"- but I would
like to know where we stand
Regarding ACTH stimulation testing- I read in our files that it
requires a single blood draw- yet to do one here it requires 2 blood
draws - take the first blood- inject a product called Synacthen &
then take another blood 1 hour after.- Again a dog protocol- but was
told that this is what is done in horses or the low dose dex test-
which they do have a horse protocol for- there is NO way I am going
there..
I do have a horse vet from another practice who is right into this &
gave her last lecture on Cushings- however, she has been away & I'd
rather ask dumb questions to you guys( no one can see me) & then
sound confident when I discuss it with colleagues!!

much thanks
pauline & jack


Re: Shredded Beet Pulp without molasses

PCfarm <pecciefarm@...>
 

Ute, some of us have found that if our feed store can get it with molasses, their supplier can get it for them without molasses. Retailers just don't like to carry it until they have a market for it. You may have to become a pest, beg, whine, whatever. If you can get together with others in your area who want it the store my go ahead and order it "one time" just to see if it sells. Or, if you can afford it and have enough storage space, have them special-order a whole pallet of bags for you--assuming your horse(s) will eat it, of course.
Linda in NC

I can get pelleted without molasses here, but so far not the shredded
kind, which I would prefer.The shredded variety available here is
doused with molasses.

Ute


Re: Evitex AND Pergolide? REPOST

Abby Nemec
 

mannequin2d wrote:

to price? Would anyone be able to advise me why the liquid would be
SO
much more expensive? Thank you, Wendy.

I do believe the liquid is a standardized extract, but I'm not sure. At the very least I'm sure it's mostly cost of processing, packaging, marketing. Happens with everything - the smaller the operation & market, the greater the markup. Also the more people who have their hands on something, the more it costs.

Go from raw herb to standardized extract, bottle it, ship it to the tack shop or catalog warehouse, ship it to you ... everyone needs to make a little something (usually a minimum of 30% for each stop en route) to pay Uncle Sam and the people who open the boxes.

-Abby



--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


Re: Can you please look at my photo album?

Abby Nemec
 

Cindy L. McGinley wrote:
"luckycharmfarm" <LuckyCharmFarm@...> asked:

i just wonder about that stance? the rounded rear end and tucked in?
is that a laminitis stance or am i just paranoid (a little knowlege
is a bad thing!).
I went and looked again because I thought in the first pictures she wasn't standing that way, and I wasn't nuts after all: it doesn't look to me that she was standing that way in the pictures where she's dry (or the first wet picture). I thought she was standing like that because she was cold from being wet (and her hooves are long). She does look quite post-legged behind, which combined with the length of hoof may be contributing to that under stance.
I think Cindy's right - I do think that stance is related to the shape of her hind feet. She is a little steep in the croup and straight in the hind leg, so she does stand a little under herself behind with her long toes behind. Already being steep/straight behind gives her no place to go w/a long toe - she has to tuck under. Then, she gets wet & a little "goosey" & ends up standing all way under herself. Those feet need some serious work, but she looks happy & in good flesh.


-Abby



--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


Re: Glucosamine, Was: is this diet ok

Erin R. <figure1789@...>
 

After reading archived posts, it seemed to me that a lot of people were
giving their horses "Equi-Flex," because it contained only the chondroiten
(sp.?) sulfate. Glucosamine is/was to be avoided.

I just switched to the Equi-flex, and was feeding the Corta- Flex pellets.
But the pellets have some no- no's in them, like yucca, msm, alfalfa and I
think- molasses. (Could be wrong on the molasses.)

I've been interested in these joint supps. for years. I've read articles
which state that either the glucosamine sulfate or chondroiten sulfate are
the preferred forms given. Just which one of them is better than the other
is still debated.

Erin and Nick, Ohio

equi- flex link
http://www.smartpakequine.com/ProductClass.aspx?productClassId=2471&cm_mmc=Google-_-Supplements-_-Joint-_-Equi-Flex


Re: Harry's feet

Abby Nemec
 

jarrahbrearebreazebridie wrote:
No rotation on Harry's feet? Hopefully Lin will get those pics up soon.

Yah a little rotation, a little laminar separation, but without getting the toes back lowering the heels will be excruciating. Worst problem is long toes, 2nd worst problem thin soles. If the soles can be relieved & toes brought back, heels can come down ... but with soles that thin I wouldn't want to have heels down without pictures.

cc-ing this to the list since it's a very pertinent query.

-A


--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


Re: HELP Dr.K, Amberlee, Harrys x-rays

Abby Nemec
 

jarrahbrearebreazebridie wrote:
Dr. K, Amberlee,Hoof gurus.
Would you please take a look at Harrys x-rays for Linda.
Harry's xrays are not too bad but his soles are pretty thin & lowering his heels - while necessary - might make him tender.

I would like to see photos of Harry's feet if possible before I comment too much more - the outside of the foot has a lot to say about what to expect when he's trimmed.

The important thing I think really has to be getting his toes back. The toes of his hooves extends way out beyond the tip of his coffin bone, so it will probably make him a lot more comfortable if his breakover is brought back quite a ways at the toe.

With short feet like this you might find it helpful to try using hoof casts (I've been on a bit of a roll with these lately!) to get some sole relief. The casts support the outside of the foot pretty well so you can put the foot on a shoe with the cast over it and get protection/support WITH sole relief - a good deal! Equicast is available from

Warwick Bloomfield of Bracknell
http://www.bfsequine.com/bfsequine/ContactUs.htm

Mike Taylor of Romford, Essex
mike@...


Feet like Harry's have been rehabilitated successfully with bare feet, boots, pea gravel, etc. as well.

When you have a chance to get some hoof photos up let us know & we can take a look & see what else we might be able to tell from there.

-Abby


--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com


BP in the washing machine

laviniamfiscaletti <dnlf@...>
 

I just started trying the BP in the wash trick and it works great!
However, if you buy the pillow protectors be careful that they don't
have a plastic membrane inside them as this doesn't allow the BP to
rinse well. I got 2 cases that had this membrane (no indication on the
package) mixed in with a bunch that didn't have it. Had to re-rinse the
BP a second time.

Lavinia, George and Nappi

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