Date   

IR and thrush, scratches, cribbing

kvsall@...
 

I am also new to the group. My twh gelding has many IR symptoms. He has always been very mouthy and chomps on tree bark, hitching post and saddle. I just started a product called Quitt, and he stopped in 3 days. I think the mouthy behavior is part of his lack of confidence symptom of IR. He is very sweet and laid back.


Re: Ellie

jgpigger
 

Lorna
I got to go back, and look for it again, the print it to follow it. Thanks for the reminder. Good time to do it right now.
candy
2010/1
U.P. of Michigan


Re: safe immune support for IR horse?

Teresa <teresa@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "drkellon" <drkellon@...> wrote:
There's no harm in using them together but they will be competing with each other for this effect. Try just the PQ.
Thanks Dr Kellon, will do!
If there is a negative effect to stopping the J-Herb, should it happen as quickly as the positive effect when starting it? 2-3 days. Also, would the fact that she was on a high dose of J make any difference in the competition? She was getting 2 1/2 tsp AM and PM. We had discussed this in NAT some time ago, as she is on free choice hay and takes all day/night to finish her bucket feed, so never an empty stomach.

We are in a bit of a warm spell with lots of mud, so she is pretty comfortable at the moment. She also got her first pair of Soft Rides last week! Cold weather is on it's way, so I'm hoping I'll know before the ground freezes again.

Thanks again,

Teresa,Alixia and Ollie
Litiz,PA
October 2006
http://tinyurl.com/cev6un


Re: Ellie

briarskingstonnet <briars@...>
 

Just wondering...did you see Nancy's posts of Dr. Kellon's 'getting
off bute' protocol??

More helpful would have been for me to repeat the message number.The protocol is down near the bottom.

Message 58964


Lorna in Ontario
Support/Moderator
2002


Re: Ellie

briarskingstonnet <briars@...>
 

Hi Candy,


Good news about Ellie.Keep at it.Results will get even better.


I am reducing her bute, we're down to 3/4 gr. am and pm now.
Just wondering...did you see Nancy's posts of Dr. Kellon's 'getting
off bute' protocol??


Lorna in Ontario
Support/Moderator
2002


Re: IR and thrush, scratches, cribbing

nancyahayden@...
 

I was wondering the exact same thing...my IR horse has her feet cleaned twice a day and is either in a clean stall or in a large paddock and still gets thrush???
Nancy
KY Jan. 2010


Re: Blood work sent in

Don <don@...>
 

Hi Joyce,

Just a friendly reminder about signing off posts with location and date of membership.
Your date of membership is June 15, 2006. Hope that's helpful.

I've visited your website before, as a result of an on line searching for all U.S. Andalusian breeders, so know you are in Minnesota.

As a diagnosed IR AndalusianX mare owner I'm very interested in lab results for yours. Looking forward to seeing the outcome and hope it's negative for IR and Cushings.

Don 06/08 Pacific Northwest U.S.
EC List Support Team

Visit the new Cushings and IR site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/


Joyce/K-J Hollow Andalusians wrote:

[...]

So the vet came out yesterday and we are checking her for cushing and IR. Will keep
the group posted on the results.

Thanks,

Joyce


Re: IR and thrush, scratches, cribbing

Sherry Lamarche <sherrylamarche@...>
 

Kris; Dr. Kellon has told me my horse is diabetic due to her high insulin levels even though we've balanced her intake.
The one thing that always had shown up was thrush on the one more "contracted" front hoof that had been diagnosed
as Navicular previously. Prior to her diet being balanced she would get scratches and rainrot during the winter/spring
mud season here in So. Wis/Northern Ill. area. She doesn't crib however she will stall walk if she thinks it is time for
her to go in or out of her pasture or stall.


Sherry LaMarche
847-343-6036 sherrylamarche@...
08/08 So. Wis.

----- Original Message -----
From: chiappa.kris
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: 1/26/2010 7:30:47 AM
Subject: [EquineCushings] IR and thrush, scratches, cribbing



I am new to this group in the past few weeks, have learned a lot about IR from postings. I am curious if anyone has seen a connection between IR and thrush in hooves, "scratches" and cribbing. The thrush and scratches could fit in with lower extremity issues and IR, not sure if cribbing is related at all. Thanks.
.


Ellie

jgpigger
 

Hi Everyone
Just an update on Ellie. I am reducing her bute, we're down to 3/4 gr. am and pm now. The new timothy hay that I got is working wonders for her. She's not particulary fond of it, but she eats it. I have been working on her muscles a bit every night and some of it she likes, other areas she threatens to bite me. (Ouch it hurts, she says).
This morning was the first time in the three weeks that she called to her friends and really wants to join them outside. But she is being patient (much better than me)!
I sent in my two hay analysis yesterday, still haven't gotten my bloodwork back yet. But I do know Lyme was negative, and I am sure WN will be too. The did tell me her bloodwork all looked good, but I haven't gotten a copy of it. I think they are waiting on the cortisol test from MI. State before sending all of the results to me.
I restarted her jia gu lan last night will continue on with that now.
On my hay analysis, I checked the #604 Complete, I figured I will then know exactly what I will need to finish this year off with this hay, then next year get all of my hay in and do another and put everyone on it!
Thanks again, sorry if I sounded like a b_ _ _ _ h but I was very scared and thank you all for having mentally sound heads on your shoulders. I have a tendency to panic, and on these groups the people out in cyber world don't know one another and its easy to pass judgement about someones personality. I am really not that way, quite the opposite in fact. So please accept my apologize if I frustrated anyone, (I know I did)! So sorry again,
candy
2010/1
U.P. of Michigan


Re: Hoffmans Horse Minerals

Nancy C
 

Hi Tracy

Sorry for the delay in getting your post up. Since this is your first post, I'm afraid you were in the pending file!

Just so everyone knows, in order to control a huge amount of spam a list this size is subjected to, every member's first post is moderated.

There has been a small discussion about Hoffman's which you can find at the link below. Long time member Angela has had conversation with the company.

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/133919>

I would not feed it to an IR or Cushing's horse. Don't think I'd feed it to a DSLD horse either. The added iron and manganese which is not good for my hay and the wheat additions are not good for an IR horse.

Tracy, since you do not have an IR or Cushing's horse, I'd like to gently direct you to our sister list ECHorsekeeping. You have nutritional concerns for sure, and discussion of fashioning a program for horses that are not IR or Cushing's can take place there.

Here's the web site

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHorsekeeping/>

Welcome. Hope this helps.

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

--- In EquineCushings@..., "rvs188" <contactus@...> wrote:
"Hoffmans Horse Minerals" www.hoffmanshorseminerals.com It has recently been recommended to me. What are your thoughts?

Thanks,
Tracy


Re: Hoffmans Horse Minerals

Mandy Woods
 

Hello Tracy,
Welcome to the group. I've never heard of this mineral supplement but the chances of it balancing your hay are pretty low! The only way to know is to have your hay analyzed and then plug in the numbers plus the minerals mentioned to see what it does.

If your mare is an easy keeper you need to make yourself familiar with the IR protocol, tests, feed and exercise. The good thing is you are being proactive! Avoid founder at all cost.
Mandy in VA
EC First Responder
OCT 2003
http://www.ecirhorse.com/


How to use Hay Balancing Spreadsheet

JanMEvans
 

Thanks, Kathleen, for explaining how to use the spreadsheet. I was having the same problems. I've reposted your explanation so it will be easy to find in the search--hope that's okay.

Jan in Central Colorado
10/09


That explains it for me! First, let's sort out the issue of where to enter your hay analysis. Try this and it should work for you. 1) Get a fresh spreadsheet from the files 2) Put the numbers from the "As Sampled" column into the far left side of the hay column under "Enter Analysis." You can use the one I did to see where those numbers need to go. 3) Enter a number in the "Amount in X lbs." Just for learning, enter one (1) lb. Notice that the numbers directly under those will match the g/lb and mg/lb on your hay analysis. Now enter how much hay you actually feed him (I aimed for a total hay and BP of 2% body weight) and you can see how the numbers add up.

Next, click on the tab at the bottom that says, "read me first" and it will explain in greater detail how the spreadsheet works. Many of the cells will autocalculate once you enter your forage so you don't want to enter numbers where there are blue text or you'll erase the autocalculation function.

If you want to enter a supplement, you would put it in one of the blank analysis columns by entering the analysis in "enter analysis" column and putting in the serving size in "Amount in X pounds." Of course, you'll probably have to convert ounces to pounds (1 oz = 0.0625 lbs) and then it will get factored in.

Just to illustrate how commercial supplements can sometimes complicate things since they rarely meet our balancing needs once we see what's in the hay - let's compare your supplement to what you need.

You need (elemental mineral amt) - you get:

7 grams calcium - 0 grams calcium (need 7 grams Ca)
3 grams magnesium - 3 grams magnesium (meets Mg needs)
350 milligrams zinc - 100 milligrams zinc (need 250 more mg Zn)
120 milligrams copper - 30 milligrams copper (need 90 more mg Cu)
800 IUs vitamin E - 35 IU's Vitamin E (need 765 IUs VitE)

You also get some selenium (.1 mg) and lysine (1.1 gram) from the supplement. FWIW, the supplement provides magnesium which you can buy in bulk from your feed store. Using 3 grams a day, Magnesium Oxide would cost you 50 cents a month. I'm guessing that's less than the commercial supplement?

You can order calcium carbonate, poly zinc and poly copper from HorseTech or Uckele and add (2) 400 IU Vitamin E capsules on top of the beet pulp if you want to make your own mineral mix. It just requires a gram scale and a little practice. Alternatively, you can contact either company for a quote and they will make up a custom mix (often flax based) for you if you just read off the elemental mineral amounts that you need (up above where I wrote "you need").

There's nothing wrong with your commercial supplement and you can always add the calcium, zinc, copper and vitamin E to it if you want.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
MO - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com/


Blood work sent in

Joyce/K-J Hollow Andalusians
 

One of my mares foundered 10 years ago, and has done well until this Dec.
she was back to the founder stance. Anyway had the vet out did xrays and
found she rotated a bit more then from years ago. Had the farrier out he
worked with her, but for some reason she only improves so much. So the vet
came out yesterday and we are checking her for cushing and IR. Will keep
the group posted on the results.



Thanks,

Joyce


IR and thrush, scratches, cribbing

chiappa.kris <chiappa.kris@...>
 

I am new to this group in the past few weeks, have learned a lot about IR from postings. I am curious if anyone has seen a connection between IR and thrush in hooves, "scratches" and cribbing. The thrush and scratches could fit in with lower extremity issues and IR, not sure if cribbing is related at all. Thanks.


Re: Omeprazole??

Saucier Kathy
 

Yes Martha, you can get Omeprazole from pharmacies like Thriving Pets/Ian Hudgings.
phone # is(303) 333-1899
And email is ian@...
I got mine from him a couple years ago. It comes in a powder form and the dose for my horse was 1 teaspoon (varies by their weight). Your vet has to fax or phone in the prescription. But you will get it very quickly after that. Oh and fax # is 303-379-6390 (from an email to him last fall although the website shows the fax # to be 303-733-3999 so contact him first to be sure)
Several on here have gone that route with their IR & C's horses.
Kathy Saucier
January 2005
Carrollton, TX

--- In EquineCushings@..., martha williams <mjwd444@...> wrote:

Hello -
3. Is there any reason why the same amount of drug couldn't be given in pill or capsule form, and would it be just as effective?
4. If so, is there a source of omeprazole you can recommend (like the pharmacies from whom we order Pergolide, etc)?


Excel spreadsheet question

Carlynne Allbee
 

Or go to the top of the sheet and on the line between that column and the next one, if you put the cursor there, you will see it change to a symbol that is a vertical line with a line on either side.  Press on the mouse and drag the column dividing line over a bit to widen it.
 
I love Excel.
 
Carlynne Allbee
march 07
 
 

Posted by: "ovsanna66" mbtrustee_brewer@...   ovsanna66
Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:47 pm (PST)


you are not doing anything wrong, it just means that the column isn't wide enough for the amount of numbers you have in it. You need to make the column wider.

Right click on the column that shows the ###, click on column width, then set it to a higher number (a number will be displayed.)

Chris


Re: Cushings?

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Carlita" <skampyspride@...> wrote:

I will take some time and fill out the forms. Thank you.

This all started with him in 2006 at the age of 6. Founder, overweight, easy keeper, etc. They thought he was Hypothyroid and put him on Thyro-L. and then the next year was told it was Equine Metabolic or IR, weaned him off the Thyro-L and kept him off grass, he did well for the next year (2008) and now another bout of laminitis, he was much slower to recover this time.
He looks IR. He does not have long hair that doesn't shed, etc. Overweight, itchy all over, puffy itchy eyes, he does seem to have a lot of health problems. and is very anxious.
Sure sounds like you're dealing with IR given your description and his age. You describe pretty standard treatment in my area, before the vets became aware of Equine insulin resistance - put them on Thyro-L. Nothing wrong with it for speeding up weight loss, but it doesn't treat IR - only diet and exercise can do that.

The other issues - especially the itchiness/allergy related symptoms can be related to obesity and IR. Obesity is an inflammatory condition and with it comes a host pro-inflammatory cytokines that trigger allergies, plus the stress associated with the acute laminitis, etc. FWIW, when I was introduced to all of this (for the same reasons you are now), one of the other laminitic horses in my pasture looked like Cushing's (PPID). His owner swore there was no way because he was 9 years old. I would have bet my last dollar that he was. Turns out he wasn't - but the "treatment" he got for IR+laminitis was a starvation diet and I think that, the stress of starving, laminitis and his poor nutrition over the years made him look PPID.

You're in the right place. Start ASAP on the emergency diet.. The added flax should help with the allergy issues. Get your history filled out and your hay analysis as soon as you can and ask for help with balancing his diet once you have the analysis in hand.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005
http://ecirhorse.com


Re: Candy/Ellie

jgpigger
 

Thannks Dr. K. I will check her gums and then restart the J tonight. candy

That's fine. Also OK to overlap it with the J. It will take up to 3 days after your last dose to see effects.>
Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Cushings?

skampyspride
 

I will take some time and fill out the forms. Thank you.

This all started with him in 2006 at the age of 6. Founder, overweight, easy keeper, etc. Did blood work then. No glucose test or ACTH. They thought he was Hypothyroid and put him on Thyro-L. and then the next year was told it was Equine Metabolic or IR, weaned him off the Thyro-L and kept him off grass, he did well for the next year (2008) and now another bout of laminitis, he was much slower to recover this time. Vet just did ACTH test in Jan 2010- and he thinks he is full blown Cushings. Started him on 1 mg Pergolide. Will retest in about 60 days to see if it is helping. He looks IR. He does not have long hair that doesn't shed, etc. Overweight, itchy all over, puffy itchy eyes, he does seem to have a lot of health problems. and is very anxious.

I will get the forms completed and see what I can find out :)

Thank you,
Carlita

--- In EquineCushings@..., Linda Rollins <lindarollins38@...> wrote:

Hi Carlita,

Wow! That's quite an ACTH! I wonder how long the Cushing has been simmering? Did you have the insulin & glucose done too? How much pergolide is he on?

Welcome to the group. We ask that you set aside some time to read the files that were sent to you when you joined. There is a ton of information in there, and probably answers to a lot of your questions!

This group's philosophy is DDTE.

1.Diagnosis - Diagnosis through blood work (ACTH, insulin and glucose) DO NOT DO THE DEX SUPPRESSION TEST. It can push these horses right over the edge.


2. Diet - Diet is through hay testing and balancing your hay with the minerals it is lacking. Testing also determines the sugar and starch content of your hay.a low sugar/starch grass hay based diet. You can't tell by looking at a hay if it is *poor quality*, *hot*, or low sugar/starch. You need to test. No green pasture. No grains. Once you know what you are feeding the horse by hay analysis, then you balance the diet with minerals specific to your horse and your hay. Bagged, pre-made products rarely fill the bill. Stop whatever supplements youa re giving until you know for sure what your hay is lacking.

3. Trim - a low heel, short toe trim. If the horse is laminitic, many find that barefoot in boots can make the horse much more comfortable than shod.

4. Exercise - if possible.

Please fill out a case history at our sister group, if you haven't already.We can get the big picture of what's going on with your horse and then help you to the best of our abilities.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory2

You will have to join but it takes no time to gain access. Then, when you post questions, include the link so it's easy to take a quick look.
We know these are stressful times, and we remind all new members to read thoroughly and breathe deeply. We are here to help.

Linda


Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/
EC List Support Team
Linda in MA, Peanut in CT - 09.07



----- Original Message -----
From: "skampyspride" <skampyspride@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 9:38:44 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [EquineCushings] Cushings?

Does anyone know a connection between aluminum toxidity and Cushings?

My horse was diagnosed recently with Cushings. His ACTH levels were 637 (normal range is 9-35).

I had a hair mineral analysis done a year ago and it came back with toxic levels of aluminum. I had my water tested. Pond water was 2.10 way over safe levels and my well water after filtered was .005 (EPA maximum levels are .005-0.20). We have black clay soil here and it is rocky (Barnett Shale). I can't help but think this is part of the problem. The vets tell me it is very rare for horses to have that much aluminum.

We started him on Pergolide last week. I have had him on magnesium and chormium supplements and have been keeping him off the grass since we originally thought he was IR. We are still keeping him on the supplements since he could be both IR and Cushings. We will test again in a couple months to see where his ACTH numbers are then and go from there.

I had tried Zeolite clay last year and biosponge and some Essaic Tea to try to detox him. I am not sure any of that helped at all. He still had a founder episode and has been slow to recover.


Thanks,
carlita



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Omeprazole??

Angie Jansen <angie.j@...>
 

4. If so, is there a source of omeprazole you can recommend (like the
pharmacies
from whom we order Pergolide, etc)?

*****************************************



I used liquid Compounded Omeprazole for my mare. It cost $160 for a months dosing given at 10cc oraly, via siringe, daily. The liquid compound is not as stable as the GastroGuard and the quality is dependent on the Pharmacy that compounds it. All that being said, I had stellar results with the compounded version.



Angie Jansen

Ontario, Canada

2008









.



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