Date   

Re: In season laminitis

 

Hi Nicky,

I did a search of the archives and found a couple of posts by Dr. Kellon that may give you some information.

# 127630
# 125305
# 122979

I need to read more on this myself since a friend's mare seems to have problems with ouchiness during her heat cycle. Last year she had an ovarian cyst that caused colicy behavior and seemed to be quite ouchy at that time too.

Barb in western CO
(with Sierra, Libby, Josie the donkey and Lola)
2005
EC List Support Team

www.ecirhorse.com

--- In EquineCushings@..., "nickyvn76" <nickyvn76@...> wrote:

Hi, just wondering how many more people have problems with IR mares getting bad when in season.


Re: cellulitis rt hind and rt front in IR mare - not critical - Dr. Kellon and group

turn3barrelhorses@...
 

I may be the only person on the planet without a digital camera
My idea- FWIW- besides the camera phone; take pictures the "old fashioned" way, with film. Even one of the disposables take surprizing clear pictures for not a lot of money. After development upload them via scanner & send them into the group.
If you don't have a scanner at home I'm sure one of the business centers such as Kinko's, could be used & here they charge a nominal fee if you're on their equipment for only a short amount of time.
I've also found the people at those types of places to be incredibly helpful with accomplishing what actually needs to be done, as I myself am very computer illiterate.

HTH!
Alexis
So AZ
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


Re: Thanks for the memories

 

Carol,

I'm so sorry for your loss. What a horse Mac must have been. I grew up with the Black Stallion books too.

That is so kind of you to take in the two foster horses.

Barb in western CO
(with Sierra, Libby, Josie the donkey and Lola)
2005
EC List Support Team

www.ecirhorse.com

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Carol" <calpiner@...> wrote:

We lost our wonderful 30 yr old TWH, Mac, on Sunday.


Re: Elva - Satin?

 

Oh Elva - I just have no words to say. Just know that I'll be thinking of you and Satin. I've had to euthanize a horse, but not my heart horse - I can't even imagine. The thought just takes my breath away. Yes, treasure each moment. I know you are and will continue to do right by Satin.

Barb in western CO
(with Sierra, Libby, Josie the donkey and Lola)
2005
EC List Support Team

www.ecirhorse.com

--- In EquineCushings@..., ejm <ejmico@...> wrote:

For now, I treasure the time we have together and we just carry on taking things one day at a time. I love this mare so much, she has been my heart horse and a wonderful buddy. I don't want her to suffer but as I say, until she tells me it's time I will continue to spend the better part of my day taking care of her. Because like the hair stuff, she's worth it.


Re: Elva - Satin? (was Chantilly)

ejm <ejmico@...>
 

Cindy L. McGinley wrote:
Elva, since we're on the subject of horses we have been following
with foot trouble, how is Satin doing? We'd like an update on her,
too, if you please.
This is going to be hard to do. But right before my computer decided to take a couple of weeks off, I had my vet do more x-rays. We decided to do them with her lying down because she cannot put weight on the left foot and we weren't sure how to get both feet up on the blocks. Just to help, Satin was the one that my vet wanted me to put down because he felt the blood supply to her left foot had been shut off and the infection around the coronary band which extended up and almost all the way around was her body trying to reject the foot. A friend and Keith Seeley thought there was a chance this had not happened and for a couple of months I cleaned the foot religiously, always once a day and sometimes twice. Put some kind of antibiotic on it topically, and gave her Doxy for almost three months plus ten days of the Gentamician (sp?).

When we took the x-rays about 3 weeks ago now, my farrier was there also and when we (the three of us, vet, me and the farrier) saw the x-rays all of our mouths dropped to the floor. There is very little coffin bone left and it looks like the infection is now in the joints of the coffin bone (what is left) and the pastern. We were all shocked because the coronary band area appeared to be healing, very slowly but healing. Apparently not. My vet says the blood supply to her foot has been completely shut off....no blood there. What he says sounds logical and certainly looks in the x-rays to be logical.

My big question is how did this happen. Last fall, her Cushings got completely out of control and she ended up going from 1 mg of Pergolide to 4.25 mgs. But it took us a while to get her that high and in the meantime, the laminitis took a strong hold. But, I thought my farrier was at least keeping her trimmed correctly. My vet says no. He wasn't. I have a new farrier and he is very good, but I just didn't get him in time.

Of course, my vet wanted to put her down right then but I refused. This mare is not ready to go yet. So I have kept her on what I call hospice care. I keep her comfortable and still change bandages and keep the coronary area clean and covered every day. She sees me get all the stuff ready and gets up and slowly makes her way into the center aisle. She stands for me to unwrap, clean, put new bandages and cover the foot. I let her eat TRC Lite pellets while I change the bandage and clean things up and get all the coverings on. I cover all the bandaging with a diaper, then an equine slipper and vet wrap the slipper so it stays on.

When I go down to feed, and she gets fed four to five times daily, 4 lbs. of ODBTC, soaked to a mash because of her mouth, she stands and greets me with a nicker and then dives into her food. She eats everything. In between feedings I keep her supplied with TC Safe Starch Forage which she chews and chews but generally quids and some Lite pellets.

She gets up from time to time but is down more than up. So she eats, poops, pees, drinks and enjoys being groomed. On occasion, she will ask to go into the corral with the two geldings and I sure do let her. I have to say her hair is a real challenge to keep brushed because we've had rain and because she is down more than up, she is quite muddy. I'm about to take clippers to her.

I cannot see putting a horse down that still has a good appetite, will rise when asked, performs all the basic functions....I just can't do it. I know the time will come but I am hoping she will tell me when it's too much to go on and then I will honor her wishes. For now, I treasure the time we have together and we just carry on taking things one day at a time. I love this mare so much, she has been my heart horse and a wonderful buddy. I don't want her to suffer but as I say, until she tells me it's time I will continue to spend the better part of my day taking care of her. Because like the hair stuff, she's worth it.

Hope I didn't make this too long or go into too much detail but thank you so much for asking about her Cindy.

Elva & Satin in New Mexico
June 04


Re: cellulitis rt hind and rt front in IR mare - not cri...

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

but could someone please give a brief explanation of what cellulitis is?

Hi Tammy -

A good question! I think many are wondering the same.

Cellulitis is an inflammation of tissue caused by *infection*. It's not the same as the swelling you see when you have a cut or injury. In cellulitis *bacteria* are at work, causing the area about the wound to swell, often excessively. It's of great concern.

Edema, which is most likely what is being described with this horse, is a swelling of tissue caused by inflammation such as joint injury, the response to an injury, etc. Stocking up is edema.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: cellulitis rt hind and rt front in IR mare - not critical - Dr. Kellon and group

cynthia perkins <perkins_cynthia@...>
 

Just wondering--do you have a cell phone with a camera?  That would be digital and takes pretty decent pics.

Wish I could help with the rest of the problem.  Did anyone already ask about hoof abscess(es)?  My mare is just now healing from a truly major abscess in one of her hind feet.  We spent weeks thinking she was sore or simply stocked up in her hock or fetlock because they would swell up and feel slightly warm, and she has a history of that; and we never got a pain reaction from her when we were picking her feet.  Also never saw any discharge at all.  It was an on and off thing, and strangely hit its peak a few days after we thought we had it licked. It reached a VERY advanced stage when she finally went really lame on it, and it was almost overnight and so bad we thought something might be broken.  X-rays at the vet hospital showed it was an abscess covering both sides of her heel and almost all the way around her toe.  It was deepest in the heel, so close to the coffin bone that the vet wasn't sure what they'd find when they dug it
all out.  Fortunately the infection just missed her coffin bone, but it's been slow going getting her hoof to grow back in--strangely enough taking longest in the toe.  

She did start to swell some in her other hind foot after her right hind had been sore for about 3 wks., probably from transferring weight from the painful hoof.  And of course she wasn't really happy about turning either direction. 

I guess mainly I wanted to back up the idea of exploring any possibility.  We sure were fooled about our mare for almost a month! 
 
Cindy Perkins, Belleville, IL
March 2009 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Split thyroid med dosage

Shawn
 

Is it OK to split the thyroid med dosage in half and give twice a day? Apparently my mare is feeling better and has chosen to dump her BP mix the last 3 days! Also, how long does it usually take to see results of weight loss?

Thanks,

Tammy
2002
So Mn


Re: cellulitis rt hind and rt front in IR mare - not cri...

Shawn
 

Forgive my ignorance, but could someone please give a brief explanation of what cellulitis is?

Thanks,

Tammy
2002
So Mn


Re: cellulitis rt hind and rt front in IR mare - not critical - Dr. Kellon and group

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

it's odd that it's only the right side unless it has something to do with what side she's laying on (grabbing at straws here).



The only thing I can think of at the moment (and granted, it's not much) is that the mare has some joint/tendon/ligament issues and the cold is exacerbating the problem.

FWIW -

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: cellulitis rt hind and rt front in IR mare - not critical - Dr. Kellon and group

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "pposey09" <pposey@...> wrote:

I may be the only person on the planet without a digital camera.
No! Tell me it's not true! OK, we'll just have to make do...

And, I may not be using the correct term. She was having a flare up when her teeth were done last. She is in a 7200 sq ft dry lot with an attached 300 ft loop...she moves at will 24/7. I mention that so you know she is not standing in a stall.

Cellulitis can be serious and usually doesn't resolve with movement. I remember when Joe was recovering from laminitis and he had quite a bit of swelling in his fetlocks when he wasn't moving as much as he used to, but it was all four. Like I said, it's odd that it's only the right side unless it has something to do with what side she's laying on (grabbing at straws here). I can't draw a straight line to anything diet related since it only involves her right feet.

Hopefully, someone else will chime in with some ideas,

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
MO - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com/


Re: peruvian paso mare

laceygrey880
 

Dear Linda,
Diet - you say she's been on the emergency diet for the last several weeks. Just to confirm - low s/s hay that has been tested or if not tested, soaked for 1 hour. Fibermax is a Canadian product? If it's the one I'm thinking of it's a blend of BP and soy hulls, but is good none-the-less.
Only on diet since Jan 12th.
Fibremax is a Canadian product, chosen because it was lower in sugar than BP.
Add 2-4 ounces ground flax seed, 2 ounces iodized salt, 3-5 grams of magnesium and 2000 ui of Vit E from gelcaps until you can get your hay balanced.
yes to all of the above.


Trim - low heel/short toe, trimmed to x-rays if foundered. Most of us find boots/pads are the easiest and usually the best for all concerned, including the horse, for rehabbing.
X-rays are done, I haven't seen them, vet coming by with them tomorrow

Exercise - only as the horse is able.
Winter grazing can be as dangerous as spring grazing. The grass begins to stress as weather gets colder, makes more sugar to prevent the blade from freezing, and eventually goes dormant. It goes dormant with whatever sugar was in the blade at that moment. Considering the grass was stressed by the cold, it can be rather high.
That is why she hasn't had any grass turnout since mid Dec. I was still riding her then.

I think what you are seeing in your mare is an IR that has been simmering for a long time. By the time you actually saw the symptoms (laminitis), the ball was rolling. Anything you do now will mitigate it from getting worse, but the mare is far enough along (the ball was rolling for a long time) that you will most likely not see an immediate improvement to soundness. But that's OK.
I think you are so correct here. At this moment I just want to think she will not have to die.
Her feet need to heal. Do not anticipate that you will look out there and see her bounding around. Focus on making certain the trim is correct (we have a sister list <http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/> ) where we can help you sort that out. Keep the diet tight. Avoid the urge or advice to use bute or banamine so that she is without pain. She will not be comfortable, but neither would you be if you had an accident that caused significant damage to your feet.
My farrier is in Europe and will be back Feb 4th. I have asked the vet to be here with the x rays at the same time.

If she has been on the diet as you describe, the initial acute inflammation of her laminitis should be over with. Please consider using jiaogulan for increased circulation, and it seems to have a small analgesic property as well. I can tell you my two horses that I used it on felt immensely better in just a couple of days.
Where do I get this in Canada?

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/Jiaogulan%2C%20Nitric%20Oxide%20Support%2C%20AAKG%20%26%20Supps/>

We have also seen very fit performance horses (in an IR-prone breed) be without any symptoms at all; take that exercise part of the equation out of their life (because of weather, injury, etc) and some have just *crashed*. Their exercise was THE key to health and soundness.

That makes a great deal of sense.
Is it okay for the Thyro-L to be given as per my vet?

Ask any and all questions.
Thank you so much, this is the only horse I have had that is so special to me,
she is the other half of my soul.
Lacey
Jan 2010


Re: peruvian paso mare

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

Querida has had nothing to eat except the emergency diet from this list
since this began Jan 11,2010.
Hi Lacey -

Welcome to the list! Let's quickly go over our philosophy just to make certain everything is covered.

Diagnosis - you have that. Querida is IR and not PPID.

Insulin of 2376 pmol/L is the same as 335 uiU/ml, which is the more common way of reporting insulin. It doesn't look as dramatic as 2376 pmol/L, but it is indeed quite elevated.

Diet - you say she's been on the emergency diet for the last several weeks. Just to confirm - low s/s hay that has been tested or if not tested, soaked for 1 hour. Fibermax is a Canadian product? If it's the one I'm thinking of it's a blend of BP and soy hulls, but is good none-the-less.

Add 2-4 ounces ground flax seed, 2 ounces iodized salt, 3-5 grams of magnesium and 2000 ui of Vit E from gelcaps until you can get your hay balanced.

Trim - low heel/short toe, trimmed to x-rays if foundered. Most of us find boots/pads are the easiest and usually the best for all concerned, including the horse, for rehabbing.

Exercise - only as the horse is able.

Winter grazing can be as dangerous as spring grazing. The grass begins to stress as weather gets colder, makes more sugar to prevent the blade from freezing, and eventually goes dormant. It goes dormant with whatever sugar was in the blade at that moment. Considering the grass was stressed by the cold, it can be rather high.

I think what you are seeing in your mare is an IR that has been simmering for a long time. By the time you actually saw the symptoms (laminitis), the ball was rolling. Anything you do now will mitigate it from getting worse, but the mare is far enough along (the ball was rolling for a long time) that you will most likely not see an immediate improvement to soundness. But that's OK.

Her feet need to heal. Do not anticipate that you will look out there and see her bounding around. Focus on making certain the trim is correct (we have a sister list <http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/> ) where we can help you sort that out. Keep the diet tight. Avoid the urge or advice to use bute or banamine so that she is without pain. She will not be comfortable, but neither would you be if you had an accident that caused significant damage to your feet.

If she has been on the diet as you describe, the initial acute inflammation of her laminitis should be over with. Please consider using jiaogulan for increased circulation, and it seems to have a small analgesic property as well. I can tell you my two horses that I used it on felt immensely better in just a couple of days.

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/Jiaogulan%2C%20Nitric%20Oxide%20Support%2C%20AAKG%20%26%20Supps/>

We have also seen very fit performance horses (in an IR-prone breed) be without any symptoms at all; take that exercise part of the equation out of their life (because of weather, injury, etc) and some have just *crashed*. Their exercise was THE key to health and soundness.

Ask any and all questions.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Ontario Dehy Balanced Timothy Cubes

ibhite
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Nancy" <threecatfarm@...> wrote:

Lots of members also use Horseshine, and yes for most it is fine. Horseshine has yeast added to it. (As does one of the Horsetech products BioFlax 20) A few mares (and some geldings, I think) have reported issues with yeast. Most of those folks have resolved those issues using one of these plain flax choices - HorseTech's NutraFlax or fresh ground or Flax oil.

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Nancy, I normally feed 1/2 cup of freshly ground flax a day, along with minerals balanced to my analyzed hay, Vit E, iodized salt, etc. thanks to great coaching by Kathleen and Mandy (as well as all the good info I get from the rest of you.) I recently purchased some BioFlax20 (I had asked for plain Biotin) as I wanted to boost biotin in my horses' diets. Since it is made with milled flax I figured I would just refrigerate it and add it to my regular flax at mealtime. Then I saw your note re problems with the yeast it contains so I'm not using it yet. Can you elaborate on the problems people have encountered? 3 of my 4 horses are IR and 2 are cushings so I don't want to add something that is going to cause problems. BTW, the selenium I add to my mineral mix is a PP selenium yeast. Any problems there that you are aware of? Thanks for any help on this.

Isabella in Va.
August 08


Re: peruvian paso mare

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "laceygrey880" <laceygrey880@...> wrote:

Thanks for responding.
Querida has had nothing to eat except the emergency diet from this list since this began Jan 11,2010.
Good...

I switched to Fibermax instead of BP two years ago, as it was lower in sugar, BP and soya hull pellets.
Who makes Fibermax? Do you have a analysis or list of ingredients? I'm curious how much fat is in the product?

She has only had 1 1/2 cups after soaking to carry the mineral mix and flax.
No pasture turnout at all in 2010.
What about 2009? If she was turned out - how long?

This mare had not lacked exercise, last summer we logged over 260 hours from March to Dec. She averages 5mph and is very fit.
So what makes the insulin spike?
Some breeds are especially prone to insulin resistance and Paso's just happen to be one of them. Normally, exercise keeps IR at bay and the effects of exercise are long lasting. Were there any other unusal events - an illness, possibly Lyme disease, a fever?

My vets are very supportive and are reading everything they can,also reading all the files I printed off this site.
That's great that they're open minded - have you directed them to our website - http://www.ecirhorse.com ? That has a lot of information in an easy to read format.

Now my riding friend just called that her PP mare is also laminitic.
She is even more strict with her mare's diet than myself. We have the same vet clinic. She is awaiting the insulin report, all the other blood tests are normal so far. What the heck is going on?
Good question. Your mare's insulin is very high - not the highest we've seen, but quite high. Has the weather been unusual this year - a drought perhaps - stressed grass? The year that my renter's horse and my horse became laminitic was a drought year - very strange season and both have been fine ever since - fully recovered, in work and on pasture part time (but carefully managed!).

It is agonizing to watch my robust mare struggle to walk even with foam pads on her front feet. She is not laying down any more than normal, just rooted to the ground. Thanks for having this list to share my worries.
We've all been here - it is agonizing and frustrating and please *do* share your ups and downs.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
MO - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com/


Re: Cunjunctivitis with Cushings

The Korens <michael_and_laura@...>
 

Thanks for responses on cunjunctivitis - will get on the Vitamin E.

Laura & Callie
Nov. 09
Baltimore County


peruvian paso mare

laceygrey880
 

Thanks for responding.
Querida has had nothing to eat except the emergency diet from this list
since this began Jan 11,2010.
She has never had grain as she is quite a high spirited horse already.
I switched to Fibermax instead of BP two years ago, as it was lower in sugar, BP and soya hull pellets.
She has only had 1 1/2 cups after soaking to carry the mineral mix and flax.
No pasture turnout at all in 2010.
I do admit she has had carrots (1-2) and apples(1)one a day, now stopped.
This mare had not lacked exercise, last summer we logged over 260 hours
from March to Dec.
She averages 5mph and is very fit.
So what makes the insulin spike?

My vets are very supportive and are reading everything they can,also reading all the files I printed off this site.


Now my riding friend just called that her PP mare is also laminitic.
She is even more strict with her mare's diet than myself. We have the same vet clinic. She is awaiting the insulin report, all the other blood tests are normal so far.
What the heck is going on?
I have warned the owner of my mare's daughter to start limiting her grazing as we have the new grass growing here.

It is agonizing to watch my robust mare struggle to walk even with foam pads on her front feet. She is not laying down any more than normal, just rooted to the ground.
Thanks for having this list to share my worries.
Lacey
joined Jan 2010


Re: cellulitis rt hind and rt front in IR mare - not cri...

kakerby@...
 

I don't tend to add much to the medical why's, because I'm such a rank
amateur compared to the expertise on this list. But a holistic medicine point
of view may have something to contribute. Sometimes when symptoms are
predominantly one-sided, that has indicated a whole-body illness which
manifests first on whichever side of the individual is weaker or somehow more
prone. That isn't necessarily muscle weakness, per se, but it's often
associated with that. Instead of looking for what's causing the R versus L side
maniffestation, perhaps look at this as the underlying disease being present
everywhere, and it's just "peeking through" on that side first. The
treatment would be the same as if manifesting everywhere - treat the cause and
not worry so much about why the symptoms are on the left or right. I hope
that helps somehow.......
Kathryn Kerby
Snohomish, WA
Nov 09


Re: Lab results back

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

Stary Night tested in the normal range for ACTH. Is that correct?
Hi Becky -

Yes, she tested in the normal range. However, there are a lot of PPID-looking horses that turn out not to be. A tightly balanced diet, deworming if needed, low s/s hay if indicated can make those PPID-appearing symptoms disappear.

I will test her ACTH again this spring. I'm weaning her off of Pergolide now. Is May the correct or best month to do that?
I would wait until late April/early May to wean and test. You could wean now but without testing now, you don't know if indeed she has an elevated baseline. You don't want problems to show up while waiting for spring.

I know little about pregnancy (except for my own), but ACTH can be elevated due to being in foal.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004




Becky
Oklahoma
2006


Re: cellulitis rt hind and rt front in IR mare - not critical - Dr. Kellon and group

pposey09
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "KFG" <katmando@...> wrote:

Can you post some pictures? I'm not sure if you're talking about true cellulitis or edema (stocking up)? The fact that it comes and goes, especially given the history (two days of bad weather and no exercise) makes me lean towards edema. Odd that it's only on the right.
Kathleen,

I may be the only person on the planet without a digital camera. And, I may not be using the correct term. She was having a flare up when her teeth were done last. That vet referred to it that way. I probably would have called it "fill". The location is above and below the fetlock joint. Noticeable to the eye and it feels a bit spongy...like "fill" in a tendon sheath. However, the joint seems to be surrounded by a little fluid as well. Not sure if it matters, but should also add those are white otherwise healthy areas - no scratches. She is in a 7200 sq ft dry lot with an attached 300 ft loop...she moves at will 24/7. I mention that so you know she is not standing in a stall.

I welcome your additional thoughts.

Paula
MT 12/09

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