Date   

Re: balancing high manganese

shalfari
 

This link is to a video of one of my horses http://vimeo.com/9290606 he abscessed eight weeks after the endurance ride in a hind foot.

Another two of my horses abscessed at almost the same time in two feet each. I wondered if it was linked to the fact that up till September I had been feeding, for 7 months, a variety of hay from a 50 mile radius because I had run out of mine. Then in September I went back to feeding my crop. The horses only eat hay during the summer as they live continuously on the tracks. I had had no abscessing for a year up till then, then the timing of them all abscessing within a three week period in November seemed a big coincidence.

The abscessing started about three years ago after the horses had been living on the land for two. First I noticed that in the white line I had little black dots, predominantly at the quarters and in the bars. As time progressed the black dots grew bigger and the connection between the white line and the inner hoof wall seemed to fail and become a cavity which would fill with dirt and be a great home for bugs. The white line was still tight on the inside it was specifically the join between it and the inner hoof wall that was failing. The cavities were at the quarters and the bars and the abscesses in the back half of the foot exiting out the heel bulbs. Initially I thought it was tar from some road planings on the track that caused it so I removed them from that.

I treated the cavities with white lightening, terramycin and opening them up to the air. This has been successful and I now only have problems at the bars but I know I am just treating symptoms. I believe there is an underlying nutritional cause.

As a further piece of interesting information I have two friends a mile down the road on the same hill range who have also had abscess problems. This is why I am really hoping it is to do with the mineral make up of our geographical area and that if I can target that specifically I will strengthen the structure of the connection between the white line and the inner hoof wall and get rid of the cause.

The skin condition is on one particular horse who has an immune system which was compromised in 2007 by septicemia. Last summer he developed a really bad reaction to flies and midges and I had to cover him up with a Boett blanket, the first time I have ever had to do this in 8 years of owning him. He now has lesions on his back and quarters a bit like rain scald. Again I can make them better with Maleseb shampoo but I am sure that is treating the symptoms not the cause.

Feed wise they were on sugar beet, oats, seaweed, micronised flax, magnesium, brewers yeast and vit e but only two capsules

I am in the process of changing this now hence my post here asking about copper and zinc in relation to my manganese.

Sorry to be long, hopefully it is not boring!

Sarah
N.Wales UK
02/10

Is there something else missing - essential fatty acids, adequate protein? Can you describe the abscessing? Solar abscess or coming out at the coronary band (assuming you mean hoof abscess)? What about the skin condition? Is it all horses? If not - can you identify a common denominator?

Thanks,

Kathleen


POA Pony's test results

tobeadog <tobeadog@...>
 

Hello. This past week my vet ran a ACTH Insulin test on our 25 yr old POA. Just to give a little background she has been blind for about 5 years now, moon blindness. Last summer she looked less round to me, on a good quality hay, no grain. I first noticed that when we'd have a chilly morning she'd shiver a little, get her hay & warm up. This fall she lost her top line, her coat has been longer and courser for a couple of years but horse friends with blind horses had said that was sometimes typical as the eye regulates shedding based on amount of light/seasons, no change in environment or amount of hay which she's always held a good weight on. Has been wormed regularly. Consulted with my vet. We started her on a senior feed back in November, she is up to 2 lbs twice a day and lots of hay. She seems to have a fuller belly but still has no top line, I can see ribs and hip bones. Her appetite is good. She stands about 11 hands.

Called my vet out because I felt she needed to be seen as by now I would have thought we'd have seen a better improvement overall. Lungs and heart good, no signs of founder, thin all around, no temp, teeth need to be floated but not bad, no problems chewing, no balling up hay, etc. He did an ACTH/Insulin test at 4:30 pm. She had had grain for breakfast and hay throughout the day. Her test results were:
ACTH Baseline: 11.1 pg/mL reference level 9-35
Insulin: 17.71 ulU/mL reference level 10-40

sample was drawn on thursday, prepared, frozen and shipped on monday.?? thoughts, experience appreciated. thank you!


Re: Pony in crisis NO possible cause?? a bit long to catch up...

bigwhitevan2002
 


Right now, you may be looking at abscesses. If she rotated in Dec/Jan, this could be abscesses that were brewing from that event.
I thought of abscessing also...hmmm

Cara just called from the barn freaked out she was checking on Pony and called to tell me she is all swollen now... her crest is hard and huge, this afternoon it wasnt, and she has fat over her hind end and lumps under her neck???? what on earth am I dealing with...

Still very sore and shifting from foot to foot ....
I advised cara to give her 1 gram of bute and try to calm down...we have never had Pony like this... guess we have been fortunate..

going to be a long night...
Julie
oregon, oct 06


Re: Pony in crisis NO possible cause?? a bit long to catch up...

Joan and Dazzle
 

Linda's right. It is possible that she needs pergolide. And, it's possible that the sugar and starch that she had caused laminitis. She may have been on the verge of it.

Right now, you may be looking at abscesses. If she rotated in Dec/Jan, this could be abscesses that were brewing from that event.

Poor girl.

Joan and Dazzle
EC Primary Response Team
Anaheim, CA 2006

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Linda" <PapBallou@...> wrote:


At her age, it is entirely possible that she needs pergolide. Not likely the cubes are too high in s/s, but there are some horses here, IR, that need to have even *safe* s/s hay soaked.


Re: Pony in crisis NO possible cause?? a bit long to catch up...

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

today she is dead on lame both fronts wont take a step without pain I found her in her sand/pea gravel paddock laying down I have the vet out in the morning to do a full work up I/G ACTH CBC etc..
Could the cubes be too much S/S etc for her... could pergolide be the missing link???
Hi Julie -

I think you have everything covered for now - vet assessment, the lab work scheduled. At her age, it is entirely possible that she needs pergolide. Not likely the cubes are too high in s/s, but there are some horses here, IR, that need to have even *safe* s/s hay soaked.

Let us know what happens tomorrow. And while you might not get an accurate baseline ACTH, you need to know if it is high enough to be causing some of the issues.

Good luck -

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Pony in crisis NO possible cause?? a bit long to catch up...

bigwhitevan2002
 

PS her age is estimated we were told she was 'well over 25' 5 years ago.....


Pony in crisis NO possible cause?? a bit long to catch up...

bigwhitevan2002
 

No possible cause....That I can think of.
Hello Groupies,
long time no see, getting to the point~~~~~
Pony Is having an unidentifiable crises,bit o history.....

past 4 years doing well on mid vally feed on private lease with a pony clubber. last sept '09 returned to us looked great. around oct '09 I switched her to OTCB cubes for convience of having the minerals already mixed in for the BO. Took right to them.

Dec '09( I think Kathleen and Mandy might know I wrote to them) I lost a brain cell and forgot to reorder the cubes so grabbed what I thought was triple crown lite instead got safe starch...read the lable and ignored the littel voice in the back of my mind that said this doest seem right...

Pony comes up with hot feet lame in both fronts I quickly stop all of the triple crown and go on an emergency diet until the cubes come in.

Ever since then she has been okay with an occasanial sore front left mid january '10 she is getting more sore so we pad her feet for a while and things improve, farrier says she is slightly sore on one part of her front left nothing big it seems to go away then pops up off and on. We put boots on her so she can be hand walked in the arena for 10 minutes or so and this helps she can walk easy and even a trot is accepted.

today she is dead on lame both fronts wont take a step without pain I found her in her sand/pea gravel paddock laying down refusing to get up I had to help her when attempted to lift up her foot she collapsed down THAT much pain!! managed to ease her into her in her stall with 3 large bales of pine shavings which she moved easier on.. she is eating well and alert. shedding like crazy already .

last blood work was done 3 years ago. I have the vet out in the morning to do a full work up I/G ACTH CBC etc.. new vet argued a bit with me about the ACTH but knew better than the dex at this point...

Could the cubes be too much S/S etc for her... could pergolide be the missing link??? I am at a loss she is only on The OTCB has a sand/pea gravel paddock no green no hay nothing else.

LOng post but its been a while

why would she be so critical on such a tight diet

thanks for any thoughts.
Julie ( without Cinderella)
Oct '05

http://www.sportshorses.com/cases/bigwhitevan2002.LilBritches.htm


Re: supplement for ir laminitic prone horse

briarskingstonnet <briars@...>
 

Its Purinas Enrich 32, NSC 10%. I compared it to 5 different other
complete pelleted vitamin supps and it has the most vitamins/min
then any other supp I looked at. All my horses are on it, even my IR
mare and they all look and feel great.
I'd be hesitant to feed this to my IR boys.

http://horse.purinamills.com/products/Enrich32.asp

Did you call them to ask about the NSC,Julie?I don't see it on their web site,but may have missed it.

Equi-Min isn't a pellet,but it has higher levels of traces.It's Purina Agri-Brands,so I'm not sure if we're comparing apples and apples or not.

I'd just encourage anyone considering it for IR horses to be picky about the details before using it.

Having said that,it's great it is working so well for your horses,Julie.

Lorna in Ontario
Support/Moderator
2002


Re: supplement for ir laminitic prone horse

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

Its Purinas Enrich 32, NSC 10%.
One of the things that is often *lost* in the search for something safe to feed an IR horse is fat content. It is a trend to add fat to many supplements, and many even boast about the amount of fat they've added.

Enrich 32 is 5%(min) fat, which means it could indeed be higher. Fat can induce or worsen IR.

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/106608>

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/120961>

The fat in this product and many others is Omega6, which is pro-inflammatory. A horse's natural diet (grazing on grass 24/7) consists of mostly Omega3 - the anti-inflammatory fatty acid. The Omega3/Omega6 ratio in grass is most closely found in 2-4 ounces of ground flax seed.

Many IR horses cannot tolerate added Omega6 fats.

Just some food for thought when looking at safe products. It's not all about sugar and starch.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: supplement for ir laminitic prone horse

Julie Warne <jwarne42@...>
 

I can tell you what I used for my mare.
It worked great for her with no issues.
We dont test our hay since we get it from different suppliers.
Its Purinas Enrich 32, NSC 10%. I compared it to 5 different other
complete pelleted vitamin supps and it has the most vitamins/min
then any other supp I looked at. All my horses are on it, even my IR
mare and they all look and feel great.
 
It is a bit pricey. $25/50 lbs, but you only feed 1-2 lbs a day depending on need.
 
I dont know about the the yeast and oxide part. Ive never had an issue with her since I put her on Enrich.
 
Julie

--- On Thu, 2/25/10, Linda <PapBallou@...> wrote:


From: Linda <PapBallou@...>
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: supplement for ir laminitic prone horse
To: EquineCushings@...
Date: Thursday, February 25, 2010, 7:41 PM


 



can anyone recommend a supplement that contains a mix of the beneficial and crucial vitamins/minerals/ amino acids/yeast/ nitrous oxide,etc.,that is critical in possibly warding off future episodes.
Hi -

Actually, no! The best supplement program for ANY horse is knowing what is missing or excess in your hay and then balancing to that. There might be a supplement on the market that comes close, but it's not likely, and you won't know until you test your hay.

Additionally, commercial supplements focus on the trace minerals since they are a little more predictable than the majors, which usually are not included except in small amounts. There are a few that are for *IR* type horses that will be appropriately generous in magnesium and chromium.

I have not heard of a supplement that adds a nitric oxide enhancing source. Jiaogulan and AAKG are what many horses on this list are on, but they need to be feed on an empty stomach...so doubtful you will find them in a supplement.

So the answer to warding off future events is to know exactly what you are dealing with by lab work (glucose and insulin for IR, and ACTH for cushings if appropriate by age), feed a low sugar/starch forage based diet with minerals balanced to it; good hoof form, and exercise!

Where are you located? There are a couple of products that have been formulated with specific regions in mind based on known typical excesses and deficits.

Do you want to tell us a bit about the horse in question?

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: New website link on the brochure

Saucier Kathy
 

Thanks Nancy. It'll probalby be in a month, for spring shots.
I had heard they were suggesting a Cushing's test for one of the older horses here but some "terms" weren't quite right. So I wanted to have the brochure ready to give them. Love that new website because I've heard several people say they would go in and read the website but weren't wanting to join a Yahoo group to get the info. So at least we can get the info out when that is the case.
Kathy S.
2005
Texas

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Nancy" <threecatfarm@...> wrote:

Workin' on it.....When are you seeing your vets?
Nancy C in NH


Gizmo update: poor lab results, new x-rays/pictures

Dawn <dlgiroux@...>
 

Hi All,

Gizmo has had a tough Fall/Winter. He began to falter in the Fall-sore, not wanting to go out) I increased his Pergolide, (from 2-2.5mg/day) but it did not seem to help. I got help from a new farrier and he dramatically changed his feet in Nov-that looked like it was going to help...but he has spent most of the Winter in his stall, too sore to go out on the hard ground. Boots did not help. I have had new blood-work done, even though I knew it was early in the season. The results were not good.

I don't know that there is much else I can try, but thought I'd ask for thoughts anyway.

Here are the links: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory2/files/Dawn%20Giroux/ (updated history)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/538961516/pic/list (new pics and x-rays)

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/girouxdigger/ (old history)

Any thoughts are appreciated-thank you,

Dawn and Gizzmo in RI

Nov '08


Re: supplement for ir laminitic prone horse

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

can anyone recommend a supplement that contains a mix of the beneficial and crucial vitamins/minerals/amino acids/yeast/nitrous oxide,etc.,that is critical in possibly warding off future episodes.
Hi -

Actually, no! The best supplement program for ANY horse is knowing what is missing or excess in your hay and then balancing to that. There might be a supplement on the market that comes close, but it's not likely, and you won't know until you test your hay.

Additionally, commercial supplements focus on the trace minerals since they are a little more predictable than the majors, which usually are not included except in small amounts. There are a few that are for *IR* type horses that will be appropriately generous in magnesium and chromium.

I have not heard of a supplement that adds a nitric oxide enhancing source. Jiaogulan and AAKG are what many horses on this list are on, but they need to be feed on an empty stomach...so doubtful you will find them in a supplement.

So the answer to warding off future events is to know exactly what you are dealing with by lab work (glucose and insulin for IR, and ACTH for cushings if appropriate by age), feed a low sugar/starch forage based diet with minerals balanced to it; good hoof form, and exercise!

Where are you located? There are a couple of products that have been formulated with specific regions in mind based on known typical excesses and deficits.

Do you want to tell us a bit about the horse in question?

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Peruvian mare update

laceygrey880
 

Hi,
My mare, Querida, has just had her 2nd trim and is progressing well.
The new hoof growth is amazing in 2 1/2 weeks.
We are to start hand walking on our pea gravel driveway. Yea!

The Pergolide has seemed to make all the difference.
She started it on Feb 8th and within five days was moving in her paddock.
She is also still on the Thyro-L, tight diet and soaked hay.
Once again, thanks to all for your encouragement and the "right
advice".
The swelling of her udder has almost gone, and she is alert and
bright again.

How soon would I do another blood test for the insulin/ glucose?

Her file is in the ec2group under Lacey and Querida.
I haven't been able to get it to copy into this e-mail.

Lacey
Jan 2010
B.C.


supplement for ir laminitic prone horse

smschachter <smschachter@...>
 

can anyone recommend a supplement that contains a mix of the beneficial and crucial vitamins/minerals/amino acids/yeast/nitrous oxide,etc.,that is critical in possibly warding off future episodes.

thank you,
s. schachter


Re: balancing high manganese

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "shalfari" <lee.proctor@...> wrote:

Well that was what I thought but I am not so sure anymore as my horses live a very good diet, good environment, good trim life. See here at www.performancebarefoot.co.uk

I shall report back if it solves my problem, if not I shall keep searching.
Is there something else missing - essential fatty acids, adequate protein? Can you describe the abscessing? Solar abscess or coming out at the coronary band (assuming you mean hoof abscess)? What about the skin condition? Is it all horses? If not - can you identify a common denominator?

Thanks,

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
MO - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com


Re: New website link on the brochure

Nancy C
 

Workin' on it.....When are you seeing your vets?

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Gary & Kathy" <gksaucier@...> wrote:
Could that be added to this file so we can point someone to this website as well as our Yahoo group?


Re: New member and proud owner?NOW Pergolide File

palomino.1982 <sbaumgardner@...>
 

Hi Chris,

In the files section in the folder "Drugs, Pergolide, Cushings Disease
Treatments"
http://tinyurl.com/2alwqb

Let us know if you still can't access the file

Susan
ECPrimary Response
San Diego 1.07
...........................................

Hi, I am interested in reading the Pergolide 101 article but can't get the link to work.
What's the name of the file it is in?


Re: New member and proud owner of 29 yr old with cushings

muff747
 

Ok, I found the file, thanks.
Chris?Matty UK 07/09

What's the name of the file it is in?
Chris/Matty UK 07/09

--- In EquineCushings@..., "bmccray12000" <bmccray@> wrote:


nose infection

tootsie2toes2
 

My horse has been on pergolide for 7 years and doing well. 14 months ago, he developed a fast-growing infection on his nose in and around right nostril. With SMZs and antiobiotic/anti-fungal shampoo, it went away. Last month it returned. After 10 days of SMZs and shampooing, it looked ok, but 2 weeks later, it has reappeared and I'm on the SMZs and shampooing again. Does anyone have similar infections on their horse on the face. It almost seems like a fungus because the skin gets darker, but since the antibiotics clear it up, I assume it is bacterial. I'm going to go 14 days this time with the medication. I am 7 days into it, and there is still a dime-sized sore. If I leave it, it will spread quickly. His insulin level is still not normal----in the 70s. He is on 1 3/4 mg./day. I'll try posting a picture of his initial infection on the Photos page here.

Thanks,
Judy and Dandy

145741 - 145760 of 282204