Date   

GACY and CHIEF UPDATE

valdavoli <STOMPERX@...>
 

Some of you remember Chief and Gacy.

Chief is my coming 20 year old Saddlebred. we have had many, many setbacks over the last three years: people feeding wrong, last year founder from west nile vaccine, laminitis/founder from omega, sand colic just to name a few. he has had some very scary foot care by professionals. i took over his foot trimming a year ago (again). the following video was yesterday. it may not seem like much to many of you, but i know there are some of you here that will understand what a huge milestone this is.

this is a dream come true for me. i trim chief and gacy's front feet only, while my farrier trims their backs and my other two horses. I am now under farrier orders to ride my chief.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWgR0wF8oRs

Gacy (in the video below)belongs to my very good friend Jackie, in Iowa. Gacy is coming 14 this year, and has been with me since Jan 09. Gacy has had the same setbacks last year as chief: wn vaccine founder, omega founder issues, and sand issues. The video was taken this morning. i expanded my dry lot fencing several weeks ago, but only just got the ground tilled last night. i think gacy approves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdKuIZynPIg

i know i have ruffled a few feathers on this forum over the years, but the two horses in these videos are why.

Thank you to everyone i have argued with, for your patience with me.

Val
2007
Chief and Gacy


Re: Abscess?Ellie/was:hay test

jgpigger
 

Thanks Lorna
This is all new to me so all these suggestions will help me, help Ellie. Those ideas sound doable to me. Candy 2010 U.P. of Michigan


George and Nappi updates

Lavinia <dnlf@...>
 

Hi all,
Nappi is about 95% back to normal from his unknown injury. Only has a slight toe dragging in his LH when he gets too full of himself and starts charging around like a 2 year old. Heaps better than the staggering horse who was drifting left and trying not to fall over with every step 3 weeks ago.

George had his CT scan yesterday to assess the extent of the carcinoma. He sailed thru the anesthesia and procedure phenomenally well and was up and back in his stall so quickly the vets were astounded :) Unfortunately, the preliminary findings are that the tumor is huge and enveloping various nerves as well as a carotid artery. It is also displacing the esophagus and various other structures. Not looking good here.

Thanks again to everyone who has made suggestions, pm'd, and said prayers for my boys. It means a great deal to me.

Lavinia, Nappi and George
Jan 05, RI


Re: Jane ---MUZZLE question- MORE confused

Lavinia <dnlf@...>
 

Hi Jane,
The bottom line is "it depends". On where you are in your rehab, on how sensitive your horse is to sugars, on how much - if any - exercise the horse is able to get, on how controlled the IR is, on how adept your horse is at getting grass thru the muzzle. There is no one-size-fits-all answer.

1. Is a Best Friends-type muzzle adequate to use when you let an IR horse out on pasture? Or does a muzzle need to be TOTALLY closed?
The more severe/fragile the state your horse is in, the more of a risk factor grass becomes as it is a complete unknown as to the sugar content at any given time. Closed means eliminating the unknown risk while open allows access to the risk.
2. How long should/could an IR horse be left in a pasture while wearing a muzzle (of either type)?
If the horse accepts the muzzle,and it's not completely taped shut, it can be left on all day. They can drink thru it. I have left George out with a muzzle for up to 12 hours so that he has a constant trickle of food coming in. He also learned how to eat hay with it on so he wasn't on an empty stomach during that time at all. If totally closed, no more than 6 hours between meals would be recommended.
3. If a horse can eat hay through a non-closed muzzle, I assume it can get grass through a muzzle. If so, is this amount generally harmful to horses with IR but who is not having problems?
Unknown amount + unknown sugar content = unknown RISK.
The shorter the grass, the easier it is to get it thru the hole in the muzzle. The shorter the grass, the more stressed it is, the higher the sugar content, the greater the risk.

Grass is always an unknown. The question each of us, as owners/caretakers, must answer is whether we are willing to take the risk which comes with allowing our horses access to that unknown.
Clear as mud, right?

Lavinia, George and Nappi
Jan 05, RI


Re: Abscess?Ellie/was:hay test

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Candy,

Did your farrier make the changes to Ellie's trim based on the suggestions that were posted on BFHC?

Hope you see continued improvement with Ellie.


Kathy

2007/SE WI

--- In EquineCushings@..., "jgpigger" <forpets@...> wrote:

Now for the new an wonderful edveloping news!! I do think its an abscess. My farrier came yesterday and I had her look at her. She immediately said an abcess. But you whats weird, is way back in Dec. when she foundered, I never thought founder, I thought abcess. So I think you stumbled on the founder issue via the abcess, (which neither vet suggested).


Re: Jane ---MUZZLE question- MORE confused

Mandy Woods
 

Jane,


1. Is a Best Friends-type muzzle adequate to use when you let an IR horse out on pasture? Or does a muzzle need to be TOTALLY closed?


***********If you dont tape the hole closed and weave something through the slated sides, the horse will eat grass but not as much as not wearing a muzzle.


2. How long should/could an IR horse be left in a pasture while wearing a muzzle (of either type)?


*********this is 'subjective'...it depends on your horse. I personally do not leave a horse with a sealed muzzle on for over 4 hours. I bring them in to eat hay.

3. If a horse can eat hay through a non-closed muzzle, I assume it can get grass through a muzzle. If so, is this amount generally harmful to horses with IR but who is not having problems?


**********thats the $64 thousand dollar question ~ we dont know. If you test insulin and glucose to see how sensitive your horse is maybe he can eat some grass. You'll need to Exercise him if he's sound.

(FYI- My horse's background : without bloodwork I don't know if the IR (Dx'd) is "statistically" controlled. Acessing her condition, I would assume we are on the right track. She is on a controlled balanced diet and in a paddock with a small amount of grass (I will NOT lock her into a smaller area and cannot eliminate the grass.) The grass must not add much to her diet as she gets 1.5% of her weight in hay (9.6% NSC) and is still slowly loosing weight. Except for an abscess last month, she has been sound since recovering from founder in October (5-6% rotation). I ride her 4x/wk lightly and she does not show any lameness.)


**************dont assume that because she is losing weight that she is not IR or handling the sugar well. MY Asher was under 900 pounds - a great weight for him - when he had his 3rd founder in a drought wearing a muzzle.

Clear as mud!
Mandy


Re: Jane ---MUZZLE question- MORE confused

valdavoli <STOMPERX@...>
 

Let me try to rephrase my question. I bet I am not the only one with
questions about the functionality of muzzles.

1. Is a Best Friends-type muzzle adequate to use when you let an IR
horse out on pasture?

yes, the best friends muzzle is very adequate on pasture, unless you
have a rotten, stinker of a horse that knows how to get it off.

Or does a muzzle need to be TOTALLY closed?

this depends on the sensitivity of the horse, and how tightly controlled
the diet is. depends on weather conditions, sunlight, rain, type of
grass etc etc etc.



2. How long should/could an IR horse be left in a pasture while wearing
a muzzle (of either type)?

with proper supervision, a muzzle can be left on all day. key here is
proper supervision.

3. If a horse can eat hay through a non-closed muzzle, I assume it can
get grass through a muzzle. If so, is this amount generally harmful to
horses with IR but who is not having problems?

yes, the horse can easily get grass with a muzzle. no one can answer
how much is harmful to the horse, there are too many variables. botttom
line... just keep in mind it's not IF the horse has problems, but WHEN.
one horse can muzzle graze all day with no bad side effects. the next
horse can have ten minutes grazing and founder. or you could have a
cumultive affect: the horse muzzle grazes for several days or weeks
with no obvious problem, and then one more blade of grass pushes them
over the edge. each horse is different.



val

2007

chief and gacy


Re: Jane ---MUZZLE question- MORE confused

JMF <jane@...>
 

Let me try to rephrase my question. I bet I am not the only one with questions about the functionality of muzzles.

1. Is a Best Friends-type muzzle adequate to use when you let an IR horse out on pasture? Or does a muzzle need to be TOTALLY closed?

2. How long should/could an IR horse be left in a pasture while wearing a muzzle (of either type)?

3. If a horse can eat hay through a non-closed muzzle, I assume it can get grass through a muzzle. If so, is this amount generally harmful to horses with IR but who is not having problems?

(FYI- My horse's background : without bloodwork I don't know if the IR (Dx'd) is "statistically" controlled. Acessing her condition, I would assume we are on the right track. She is on a controlled balanced diet and in a paddock with a small amount of grass (I will NOT lock her into a smaller area and cannot eliminate the grass.) The grass must not add much to her diet as she gets 1.5% of her weight in hay (9.6% NSC) and is still slowly loosing weight. Except for an abscess last month, she has been sound since recovering from founder in October (5-6% rotation). I ride her 4x/wk lightly and she does not show any lameness.)

Thanks for any clearing of my muddled mind.
Jane and Miss Kitty
NE MS
10/09
www.agapehands.com

--- In EquineCushings@..., "valdavoli" <STOMPERX@...> wrote:


yes. horses can eat hay through their muzzles. i have two that do so very easily.


val
2007
chief and gacy.


Re: GreenGuard Muzzle

Country Horse Gifts
 

From an internet search, I found only one tack shop in England that sells
them online,
but they can't send to the U.S.
I don't know a thing about them, but if you decide you want to get one,
Harmany Equine here in VA sells them online:
http://www.harmanyequine.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=137

Sue (& Libby, the IR mare, in Catlett, VA)
May 2006


Re: Abscess?Ellie/was:hay test

Lorna <briars@...>
 

I am just waiting for her to get up so I can soak her this morning.
Candy,if you want/need to soak her when she's down(rather than miss a soak)it's doable.I used to make a little mound under the leg,in the knee area, so that the foot hung down from that raised leg,rather than lying flat on the ground.Or if you are on soft bedding you can dig a hole so that the foot can be in that lower spot.Then just put an old IV bag or plastic bag of some kind on the foot and pour in your solution,tying the bag securley around the leg.If it is awkward to lower the foot,just soak a towel with your warm solution and put it in the bag,then insert foot.Works well,too.
If neither of these methods works for you,you can even soak the towel and wrap it around her coronary band,if that's where the abscess is going to exit,then cover with plastic bag.

Lorna in Ontario
Support/Moderator
2002


GreenGuard Muzzle

edain_rides <edain@...>
 

Has anyone bought a GreenGuard muzzle? How do you like it? And, where did you buy it? From an internet search, I found only one tack shop in England that sells them online, but they can't send to the U.S.
Fortunately, I have a cousin who lives in Cambridge, England, and I can have it sent to her, and she can send it to me. And, since it is on backorder at the tack shop (The Saddlery) that means I won't get it for probably 6 weeks (and the grass is growing......yes, I know I should have done this in January).

(I cross-posted this on ECHorsekeeping)

Thanks,
Barbara
Southwest PA


Re: Abscess?Ellie/was:hay test

jgpigger
 

LINDA!!

Your post this morning has made more sense than any of the others, not that some were not trying to help, but the well thought out way you've written this note is greatly understood, and appreciated. Thank you.

Now for the new an wonderful edveloping news!! I do think its an abscess. My farrier came yesterday and I had her look at her. She immediately said an abcess. But you whats weird, is way back in Dec. when she foundered, I never thought founder, I thought abcess. So I think you stumbled on the founder issue via the abcess, (which neither vet suggested).
I soaked yesterday 2 times, and this morning although Ellie is laying down, I got a good look at her foot where she's been biting and trying to show me. There is a slit around the cornet band area right where I kept looking but seeing nothing. I am just waiting for her to get up so I can soak her this morning.
I am now going to wait until this thing opens up to do her bodywork so I can get her rebalanced without interference of the abcess. YAHOO!!!
If only the one vet that said Ellie had WNV, hadn't put me on bute for so long it probably would have been over and done with. Although the other vet that did the xrays told me to do the same. Oh, well what's done is done and now hopefully, my Miss Ellie will be going good soon, I feel like all has not been lost, I was beginning to doubt it all. Thank you again, and thanks to everyone offering bits of ideas and help, it IS truely appreciated. I have to go see if Ellie's is up and ready to face another day. :) Take care, candy and Ellie 2010/1 U.P. of Michigan


Re: Case HX for Fury Sharpless ---MUZZLE question

tomtriv <ThePitchforkPrincess@...>
 

I am hoping I
missed something somewhere and that someone can explain
the muzzling plans
Hi Kim,
There really is no real plan for muzzles because each horse is different. The muzzle is a tool that can be used to prevent some grazing or all grazing depending on the sensitivity of the horse's IR. The plan is to prevent laminitis :-)

Many horses are safe from IR in open holed muzzles. Some need the holes closed a bit or even completely. If a horse has been brought back from full-blown founder an owner may not want to chance allowing even one blade of grass and choose to start with a completely closed muzzle. That owner could then carefully experiment with that horse's tolerance while carefully monitoring.

If you were to have the horse out with the muzzle and he cannot eat anything,
wouldn't he get ulcers?
I understand (and hope to be corrected if I'm wrong!) that ulcers are most commonly caused by feeding of concentrates (grains?) and then not having access to food for a while. I have been told it is safe to allow up to 6 hours between hay meals. Since my mare gets no grain at all, and is fed ODTB Cubes within 6 hours of her finishing her last meal of cubes, I assume she is fine. I've never suspected ulcers so never tested though.

At night all but the smaller bits of the cubes and "dust" are put in a Nose-It! ball which the mare has to push around her stall to get the cubes out. It adds a few more hours to her "chewing time" and lessens boredom and empty tummy time that contributes to ulcers.

For me, the risk of ulcers is secondary to the risk of laminitis. However, if you are using a nylon mesh type of muzzle, your horse will, or eventually learn how to, get hay or plant matter through the sides. If this proves to much for the horse's IR, you'll have to close those holes. If not, perhaps you can consider the bits as ulcer fighters?


-LeeAnne & Dawn,
Newmarket, Ont
ECIR File Clerk
PPID & IR 03/2004
All Season Muzzle Photos: http://tinyurl.com/55c52m


Re: OT - SURVIVAL- a must see!!!!!

Linda Rollins <lindarollins38@...>
 

OK, maybe not spam, but OK, it shouldn't be here, but it is amazing to watch - and listen to. My dogs all freaked out when the cub was screaming.

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/
EC Primary Response
Linda in MA, Peanut in CT - 09.07

----- Original Message -----
From: "E McCutcheon" <arak331@...>
To: "Cushings" <EquineCushings@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 7:02:06 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [EquineCushings] OT - SURVIVAL- a must see!!!!!










I have no idea how this could possibly have been
filmed, but it’s one terrific
video........>>

http://www.flixxy.com/game-of-survival.htm <http://www.flixxy.com/game-of-survival.htm> >>

















-










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Re: iron content in Triple Crown Lite feed

PaulaV
 

I thought I might have to consider metals added in the processing function as part of the dietary content...but apparently not. Sounds like it would be a waste of money to test then.
Thanks,
Paula
NY '05

There are several problems with testing processed feeds. 1) the actual processing with cutting blades, choppers, grinders, etc., will add non-bioavailable iron to the analysis, just like using a copper pipe or zinc plated home-made hay corer will add copper and zinc to the bottom line. Unfortunately, the analysis doesn't make the distinction between bioavailable trace minerals and those that aren't 2) the numbers provided in the analysis on most feed labels will represent an average. Because of issues with mixing, grab samples from feed bags will never replicate what's on the label. No hay sample will represent every mouthful of hay either.

If sampled properly and randomly, you can get a very good estimation of what's in the hay but unless you want to do the same with several samples (15-20) of processed feed, it probably won't accurately represent what's really in there.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
MO - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com/


Re: iron content in Triple Crown Lite feed

PaulaV
 

Thanks Susan. I had looked in all the files already. I was just hoping someone had done it and perhaps not shared it. If I do it, I will certainly share.
Paula
NY '05

--- In EquineCushings@..., "palomino.1982" <sbaumgardner@...> wrote:

Paula,

I don't have an answer for you re: tested iron in TCLite feed but here is a link for the Safe Feed file. This is listed state by state:
Safe Feeds.pdf

If you test it, please let us know.

Susan
ECPrimary Response
San Diego 1.07

EC/IR website:

http://www.ecirhorse.com
..................................................................


Re: Abscess?Ellie/was:hay test

Linda Peccie
 

Hi, Candy--Here is some random thoughts re this recent thread

Ellie's trouble started in December, if I remember correctly, and your trims
are at least pretty good if not very good (I'm no judge of that). If she
had laminitis/founder back then, three months is not unreasonable for
abscesses to form--her attempt to get rid of damaged tissue. Abscesses are
ungodly painful (don't ask me how I know!) and that could be why she isn't
really interested in eating anything but hay. If she was on bute for a
while she may have developed some tummy discomfort and many horses prefer
hay when their tummies hurt. Tried aloe or other ulcer-soother? If that
muscle group Lorna mentioned is very stiff and sore, poll to shoulder, there
may also be pain in the TMJ making it hard for her to chew on one side. I
believe horses move their mouthful from side to side but her "meal" may be
enough different in texture from her hay that it needs to be chewed
differently. If anything inside her mouth is sore the salt may be
irritating. One dose of bute makes my oldest horse go off feed for a week.

Where on her foot is she biting? My horses chew on the coronary band when
their abscess will break out there. They also bite or lick at the
fetlock/leg swelling. My soaking routine if they swell up starts with
cold-hosing the leg (aquamessage?) and then hot water w/apple cider vinegar
to cover the coronary band, for 30 minutes or so as many times a day as I
can manage--usually four. Did you say Ellie picks her foot up kind of funny
and then sets it down way out in front of her? That sounds like toe pain,
not wanting to break over at the toe or put pressure on it which is
transmitted to the coronary band -->pain. And she doesn't
want you messing with that foot, like where, around the coronary band or
underneath, on the sole/frog? Can you feel (gently) a slight bulge at the
hairline yet? If the leg swelling is starting to localize to one side, this
may give you a clue about where a breakout will occur. Definitely don't let
anybody dig around looking for an abscess; it often causes more trouble than
the abscess itself. My girls prefer to soak in a high-sided rubber feed
tub--soaking boots bother coronary band abscesses. We haven't found hoof
testers to be particularly helpful.

Any auto parts store should have those laser thermometers.

I'm certainly not discounting the possibility of tendon/ligament trouble or
anything else for that matter. It's just that I've had way more abscesses
than other lameness issues. They are damned distressing but good for
bonding--horse gets to eat or be groomed/loved-on while standing in the
soaking tub and she comes to know you are working hard to help her!

Linda in NC-2002


Re: Jane ---MUZZLE question

valdavoli <STOMPERX@...>
 

yes. horses can eat hay through their muzzles. i have two that do so very easily.


val
2007
chief and gacy.


Re: Jane ---MUZZLE question

Mandy Woods
 

Heather,
I have heard of some horses learning how to get some hay through a muzzle. I bring my mare in from the track to eat her hay which is weighed and left in a small mesh hay net to slow down her consumption. She is not muzzled. I do put hay on her track but she prefers to move around tasting all the greenies.
Mandy


Re: Jane ---MUZZLE question

heather broughton
 

Hay doesn't stand up in a way that would poke up through the hole in the muzzle like grass does... so my question is... Can a horse figure out how to eat hay through a muzzle?

It's difficult to restrict hay intake with a horse who is top notch in a herd of 5. The hay is not free fed, but she makes sure she gets her fair share!

(yes, hay is tested, 8% NSC)


Heather
Oct 2009
Ontario

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Mandy Woods" <bittersweetfarm@...> wrote:

Hi Jane,
IF you have a horse that is diagnosed IR by bloodwork you would be wise to just feed it a known low esc/s feed like tested hay or r/s/r bp. Unless you have total control over your horse by turning it out early in the am for a few hours, bringing it in for his meals and then working the animal for an appropriate amount of time (exercise) you will not know how much sugar is consumed.

Horses learn pretty fast how to get grass through the muzzle hole. My Morgan foundered in a muzzle during a drought on 5 hours of pasture. He was extremely sensitive. I was extremely stupid. Hind site is 20/20.

My new horse is turned out on a track for 3 hours in the morning, no muzzle (yet). She comes in to a stall to eat hay and finish her custom mix. Then its to the drylot with more hay. I feed her 4 times a day. A closed muzzle allows the horse to be out in the field with his friends (if they dont demuzzle him) and to move at liberty - for a few hours. A horse can drink through a muzzle.

Mandy in VA
EC First Responder
OCT 2003

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